posted
Considering "All Creatures of Our God and King" is still in there in all its pagan glory, I'm not sure.
I wish I could remember some of the other changes - there were definitely more signifigant theological changes made. For instance, all references to the Trinity.
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posted
Anyone compiling a hymnal for church use will do the same thing. Look at "Come, Come ye Saints" or "All is Well" in the red Southern Baptist hymnal. That quintessential Mormon hymn is there with delitions and changes where they wouldn't fit a Baptist service. No big deal. And, yes there are hymns that have erronous theology still in the LDS Hymns book including some of the most popular numbers. There is no theological basis for including "Love at Home". Have you ever actually read those words?
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quote:There is beauty all around When there's love at home There is joy in every sound When there's love at home Peace and plenty here abide Smiling sweet on every side Time doth softly, sweetly glide When there's love at home.
Love at home Love at home Time doth softly sweetly glide When there's love at home.
I find this completely doctrinal. What's wrong with it?
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posted
I had to look up the lyrics to that. Eh, maybe it's an optimistic hymn.
quote:There is beauty all around, when there's love at home. There is joy in ev'ry sound, when there's love at home. Peace and plenty here abide, smiling sweet on ev'ry side. Time doth softly, sweetly glide, when there's love at home.
Love at home, Love at home. Time doth softly, sweetly glide, when there's love at home.
In the cottage there is joy, when there's love at home. Hate and envy ne'er annoy, when there's love at home. Roses bloom beneath our feet, all the earth's a garden sweet, Making life a bliss complete, when there's love at home.
Love at home, Love at home. Making life a bliss complete, when there's love at home.
Kindly heaven smiles above, when there's love at home. All the world is filled with love, when there's love at home. Sweeter sings the brooklet by, brighter beams the azure sky. Oh, there's one who smiles on high, when there's love at home.
Love at home, Love at home. Oh, there's One who smiles on high, when there's love at home.
My mother used to play this hymn on the piano when my brothers and I were fighting. it even worked sometimes.
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quote:Just curious to the LDS, have you ever looked at a non-LDS hymnbook and compared? Not just the titles which are often the same but the actual words to the songs.
Yes.
quote:And the changed words, in several cases completely changed the theological meaning of the song too.
As Kat said, that's pretty much the point.
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posted
Yeah... well the Protestants and Catholics don't generally change the words to each others hymns. If they "borrow" them they are generally borrowed intact or not used.
In the Garden is a pretty shlocky protestant hymn too.
Again, it's just an area with differences that are deeper than they seem. You think you are singing a hymn with the proper worshipful reverence and embracing the meaning of the song as praise to God, and all of a sudden *wham* the words are different, and you aren't singing what you thought you were. It's kind of a jolt. (It happened to me when I was a considerably more devout Christian, and attended a couple of LDS services, because I was visiting some LDS friends.)
AJ
More: Again, it's the seeming common denominator that isn't, "Oh we have the worship songs in common." But even if you are singing one that is unchanged, the message that the LDS person understands when they sing it is entirely different than the message the protestant gets when they sing it.
I also may be an anomaly in that I had almost every hymn memorized with almost all the verses in generic protestant hymn books. Before they were using overhead transpariencies for the congregation to sing from, I almost never used a hymnbook, since I knew the words.
quote: Protestants and Catholics don't generally change the words to each others hymns. If they "borrow" them they are generally borrowed intact or not used.
We aren't Protestant or Catholic. *twinkle*
The other option is "not used." Which, considering how beautiful the hymns are and how little tweaking needs to be done so we don't teach what we consider to be false doctrine, would be tragic.
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posted
I understand why you tweak them, but again, your average listener of any faith probably won't realize they've been tweaked to change the meaning in the LDS version. It seems disingenuous to me somehow. I know it is a little thing, but it bothers me more than a lot of the major doctrinal issues that are being tweaked, cause it's kind of sneaky in a way.
posted
I can tell it's bothering you. I'm sorry you're bothered, but I'm wondering why this issue is so much. No one is trying to trick anyone.
I mean, from our perspective, it's the exact opposite. Now people can sing beautiful hymns where the words are in line with what we actually believe. It would be a great disservice to teach something that we don't believe is true.
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posted
I can see objection if one believes in the moral model of copyright - that is, that artist intent is something worthy of respect in the use of the art. These hymns were composed to deliver one message, and now they are being used to deliver another - one that contradicts.
Doesn't bother me too much, because I'm more of an economic model copyright kind of guy.
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I don't think it's deliberately "trying" to trick anyone, but the execution is such that it *can* trick people. I've heard, (from the sometimes discussions between my LDS aunt and cousins, and my protestant parents) "but we sing the same hymns, it's not that different" as a place to find commonality. And then I find out the hymns were actually changed and it was a shock.
posted
Ah. Well, they are mostly the same hymns. I mean, it hasn't gone to "Yay, Evil!" I'm sure if the oringal hymnwriters had been aware of everything, the original would match the lyrics in the LDS hymnbook now. *twinkle* *dances out of reach*
Maybe that's why I have a Methodist hymnal in the first place. I have the vague feeling that I've had this conversation before, and so came home with a book with El Shadai in it, which made me happy.
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quote: Yeah... well the Protestants and Catholics don't generally change the words to each others hymns. If they "borrow" them they are generally borrowed intact or not used.
Oh yes, we do! We change words all the time. Sometimes we put completely new words to old tunes; sometimes we update old texts to make them more in line with theology, more gender inclusive, or more inclusive in general.
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posted
Catholics and protestants took hymns from a COMPLETELY different religion. At least mormons take hymns just from a different sect Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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again, I was raised in a conservative variety of Christianity. Maybe it's the conservatism rubbing off on me that I don't like changing the words to hymms. They'd certianly never change a hymn to make it more gender inclusive! AJ
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Try it - the next time you sing the hymn, imagine yourself holding a stein. The tune and lyrics fit perfectly.
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posted
The Battle Hymn of the Republic is another one we've changed, though I think we've only changed one word. And that one word has since been copied by other, non-LDS versions. (Actually, I was told the LDS church came up with the one-word change, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else did it first.)
Another point about differences in hymns goes back to the very earliest hymnals in the LDS church. At that time, the hymnals were not published with the musical notation, but only with the lyrics. The congregations used any tune they knew that fit the meter. Often, they used the tunes from the hymns they knew in their former churches.
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posted
Oh, How Lovely Was The Morning and Brightly Beams our Father's Mercy can both be sung to the Muppet theme song.
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posted
Evangalical Protestant military chaplains usually will not allow the Mormon hymn "I am a child of God" to be used in general services because of the chorus. "Lead me, Guide me, Walk beside me. Help me find the way. Teach me all that I must do to live with him some day." It is still a nice song, and when it comes out of copywrite protection, someone will probably adapt it.
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Probably because "Teach me all that I must do to live with him some day" implies works have something to do with salvation.
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I guess I lost a post. Yes its not the military, its the evangalical protestants. It is "anti" saved by grace. Brinestone: it also has the Finnish national anthem tune, British national anthem tune, and several others I could mention if I had a hymn book at work. Changing words to hymn tunes is not a new thing. Some plain song tunes come from Jewish and/or Arabic chant. Early high protestant hymns were usually four part arrangements of Gegorian chant tunes. (that may have come from Jewish chant). There is a whole body of fairly racy songs that were also set to Chant tunes. (Carmina Burana) In fact any really good hymn tune has dozens of sets of words.
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posted
I wonder how much we'd have to change some of these hymns to make them work for atheists.
Joy to the world! No one has come; let Earth receive nothing! Let every heart prepare some room, And all of nature sing, And all of nature sing, And all of, and all of, of nature sing.
We'll rule the world with truth and grace, And make the nations prove The glories of our righteousness, And wonders of our love, And wonders of our love, And wonders, wonders, of our love.
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I like the idea of "Go rest, ye merry gentlemen," though. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
> What's the doctrinal problem with "Heaven and Nature sing?"
I don't think there is one. Not all the changes for the LDS hymnal are for doctrinal purposes. (For example, the change from "mighty thunder" to "rolling thunder" in "How Great Thou Art.")
There is a metrical problem with "Heaven and Nature sing," though. Even if you write it as "Heav'n," it's still a little awkward to sing it on one note. So my guess is that whoever put that song into the LDS hymnal decided to solve that problem and give the song a little Latter-day Saint flavor at the same time.
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posted
In thirty years of singing in both Protestant and Catholic church choirs, I have always sung "rolling thunder". Are you sure this is a change?
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The authors original words were "all the works thy hands have made" and "mighty thunder." However, they've both been changed in most Protestant hymnals, so I don't think it was an LDS-specific change. More likely because they're easier to sing. The "L"s roll so nicely off the tongue.
The imagery works better, too. The "worlds" change makes the first verse clearly about the wonder of space, since it already mentions stars and the universe. The second verse is the more immanent creation, with woods and birds and such. And who really thinks of thunder as particularly mighty, anyway? It's just noise. Kind of cool noise, like rolling drums, but not "mighty."
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"Heaven and nature sing" - this is the one change that drives me crazy. What do you sing when you're out Christmas caroling without hymnbooks? Many Saints sing what they're used to - "Saints and angels". Other saints and non-members sing "heaven and nature". Monday night I found myself in a muddle and started singing "And haddah bladdah sing ... and bleh bleh neh bleh sing...." Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:We belong to a cult, but apparently not a dangerous one.
I feel that way about quite a few denominations. And again, there are benefits in being part of particular cults, depending on the content of the tenents.
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