posted
It's worth noting, BTW, that my brother is a music composition major. I consider it the worst possible thing to happen to his ability to actually compose listenable music -- which is, as far as I'm concerned, the only kind of music worth producing. He's spent the last two years researching an obscure East European immigrant who died in obscurity in New York after writing a few piano pieces that are so deliberately dissonant that they go through dissonance and come out the other side. Andy's an astonishingly talented pianist, but there's no way to tell from what he's been playing lately; the pieces are of enormous technical difficulty, but they're so mind-gratingly awful to listen to, so deliberately horrible, that the only way to suppose he's played a wrong note is if something briefly sounds okay.
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posted
Reminds me of that one episode of house where he triggers a seizure in that musician with his own music.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Orincoro and Launchywiggin, I'm not sure you both realize that "the kid playing the blues guitar" that Elizabeth posted is her son, Aidan, not some random kid she found on YouTube.
Yep. And Aidan has recognized as being talented and worthy of inviting to jam sessions by noted musicians in the field. That's not a pity play -- this isn't an invitation extended every week to the favorite student from the local junior high.
Even if he weren't that good, it would be tacky to try to score points off someone's post about how much they admired their own son.
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Edited to add:
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: Well, there is another reason people put things on youtube, I am afraid to say. It is easier to share things with family and friends. This is why we do it, anyway. I am not trying to make my son into some sort of fetish.
I thought Elizabeth was pretty clear about it.
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Yeah, I didn't know anything about Elizabeth's family, but her posts here made it pretty obvious that the video she linked was her son, whose name is Aidan, since she makes that connection several times.
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Again, I apologize for not being able to infer that the kid in the video was her son. The link said "My favorite guitar player"--and I don't know who Elizabeth is. All the references to "her son" and "Aidan" could have been something completely different from the video posted, and I don't like to make assumptions on the internet, so it's not "pretty obvious" or "pretty clear" to everyone.
posted
I clarified because I did not think that Elizabeth's post made it explicit that the video was of her son, Aidan. It could certainly be inferred from all her posts on the thread, but some people pick up on those things faster than others, and some pay more attention to detail than others. *shrug* I wanted the information out there before anyone did say something regretable.
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: so it's not "pretty obvious" or "pretty clear" except to you folks with 10,000+ posts that all know each other.
quote:Originally posted by me: I didn't know anything about Elizabeth's family
posted
All I did was point out that your blanket statement appears immediately after an example which proves it wrong.
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I'm sorry about my defensive tone. I'm having a bad day and I don't like confrontation, in person or online. I've edited my post and will quietly step back and continue lurking.
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Launchywiggin, I was just out walking around on errands, and this was on my mind.
Some things are blindingly obvious to me. I think that even if I hadn't known Elizabeth, this one would be. However -- a very big however! -- I know for a sure fact that there are things blindingly obvious to others of which I am utterly and completely unaware.
I think my own utter lack of awareness meant I wasn't able to read your posts as if you could possibly not have gotten it. I was clueless. Looking back now, I can see where someone could have passed over it, especially if one was reading quickly (as one tends to do, catching up on a thread with some long posts).
I'm sorry that my lack of insight and self-awareness led directly to my being rude to you, and I am sorry for that rudeness as well.
Don't just lurk, okay? Please? *winning smile
---
PS: Will edit my posts to reflect your edits
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posted
I appreciate that CT, though you weren't being rude at all, really. Don't forget that it's my inability to make seemingly obvious connections like this that caused the problem.
Also--to Tom, I think it's really cool that your brother's name is Andy--considering we're both pianists and composers. To top it off, my dad's name is Tom.
As for dissonant music--"listenable" is really relative over time. The effects of dissonant 20th-Century music are seen even in the easily-accessible John Williams scores and the like. Also--once you've been forced to listen to it awhile, it becomes much easier.
I, for one, still like my poetry to rhyme and my music to be tonal.
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: The effects of dissonant 20th-Century music are seen even in the easily-accessible John Williams scores and the like.
Or for that matter, bands like King Crimson and Mr. Bungle. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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" "the blues" are the most accessible and easily attained skills to learn."
What's the difference between a Blues musician and a Jazz musician?
A Jazz musician plays a thousand chords in front of three people. A Blues musician plays three chords in front of a thousand people. Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Launchy: there is no measure of soul. And there doesn't have to be. Either you feel it, or you don't. If technical training at your level has removed the ability to just FEEL the soul, then I'm sorry. I can't explain it to you.
(Not that one is better than the other. I'm sure you appreciate technicalities in music that I never will. But you may want to recognize that it's apparently a trade-off.)
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Launchywiggin. Please donlt feel bad for what you said. If I am feeling vulnerable enough to put my son;s work for all to see then I would of course expect people not to necessarily like it.
He knows that the blues is easiest for him. If you link to a couple of the other vids, he is playing some of his own music, arranged by him.
But he would agree with you on my rather mystic approach to his music. After he played a song with Donna the Buffalo(there was absolutely no warning), I asked him how he had made this absolutely beautiful riff with the lead guitarist. He said, "I don't know." I said that, well, I thought it was freaky. His response was, "What Mom, you think it's freaky that I played in thirds with Jeb?"
As for the Korean boy, what I recognize is a look of concentration and love of what he is doing. I would love to get them together, actually.
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Edit to add that Jeb Puryear is the lead singer/guitar player for Donna the Buffalo, my favorite band in the world. Jeb is also Aidan's hero. It would be like me, at ten, getting to play a song with Donny OSmond. (see, Orincoro, told ya I was old)
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posted
I would say "the blues are" wonderful to listen to, instead of "is".
After watching more of Aidan's videos, I think I'm mostly just jealous that I'm not as brave as he is to get up and play in front of so many people (and his own stuff! I never played my compositions for anyone else). It's clear he's worked, studied, and practiced to gain the amazing talent he has now. I only started playing when I was his age, so he's a lucky kid to have parents that support him so young.
About soul, Kq, it's definitely not absent in my understanding of music. We probably just see it differently. Instead of treating it as undefinable ("it's got soul" doesn't explain anything about the music), I try to understand why some pieces of music/recordings are so much more moving than others, rather than attributing it to some unknown variable. Technical training/understanding definitely doesn't remove the ability to feel the "soul"--if anything--it gives me a much greater range of things to explore, appreciate, and "feel" about the music than if I were just experiencing it at face value. If all you see is the tip of the iceberg, than whatever is under it can only be explained using words like "soul". Being able to define what's under there doesn't take the soul away, it makes it more clear, if anything.
There is a trade-off, though--in that it's harder to appreciate music with nothing "under the water". You become more discerning in what has "soul" and what doesn't.
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I guess, for me, it is not so much a soul thing as a "music coming through" thing. Some people seem to be playing the music, and they may or may not play it with "soul." Sometimes, though, I swear someone is channeling. They are just so in tune with the music, as if it is coming through them more than they are making it.
Again, I know that is vague and mystic, but it is how I feel about some musicians.
I can listen to Bela Fleck play his banjo for about two songs, and then boredom hits. But when I hear Richie Stearns play, it hits me right in the heart.
I feel the same about music as I do about literature. Please don't tell me what's good. If I like it, I think it's good. I am not in it for the analysis, I did that in college.
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Launchy, I disagree-- soul is by definition undefineable. Understanding why something is emotionally moving is not the same as whether something has soul or not. I guess my idea is somewhere between yours and Elizabeth's. But that's okay, I'm happy to disagree, and let it go. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Orincoro and Launchywiggin, I'm not sure you both realize that "the kid playing the blues guitar" that Elizabeth posted is her son, Aidan, not some random kid she found on YouTube.
Not to sound snarky, but I wonder i'm not sure you know I haven't really said anything about that.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's worth noting, BTW, that my brother is a music composition major. I consider it the worst possible thing to happen to his ability to actually compose listenable music -- which is, as far as I'm concerned, the only kind of music worth producing.
Well that's just like... your opinion, man.
quote: He's spent the last two years researching an obscure East European immigrant who died in obscurity in New York after writing a few piano pieces that are so deliberately dissonant that they go through dissonance and come out the other side. Andy's an astonishingly talented pianist, but there's no way to tell from what he's been playing lately; the pieces are of enormous technical difficulty, but they're so mind-gratingly awful to listen to, so deliberately horrible, that the only way to suppose he's played a wrong note is if something briefly sounds okay.
If you're talking about Bartok (my accenty button is not working) then man are you wrong.
If it is Bartok, there are a gazilion Bartok pieces that are breathtakingly creative. They are stark, harsh at times, sometimes frightening, sometimes grating. I took a class myself on his string quartets and concerto for orchestra, plus his "Music for String Percussion and Celeste," and it's revealing of a brilliant intellect and a careful attention to the finest detail. It's music that teaches musicians what they are capable of when they don't even know it.
If you don't like it, well, I sympathize. But the idea that your brother lost some ability to compose beautiful music in a composition program is a) wrong, b) entirely missing the point c) insulting.
So there ya go. You're the snob, thinking that what you don't like is totally lacking in validity. I at least acknowledged a good deal of personal thought that has gone into my feelings about Pachelbel. You've just turned your cereal bowl over like a kid because you don't like the taste of raisin bran.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: (Not that one is better than the other. I'm sure you appreciate technicalities in music that I never will. But you may want to recognize that it's apparently a trade-off.)
This is as close as people on Hatrack come to outright bigotry. You're much nicer a person than these words suggest. I can't tell you though, how frustrating and deeply insulting a comment like that can be.
You're talking to people who are dedicating their lives to music. Do you really think it doesn't have a spiritual aspect to us? I think if anything, I frown on those kinds of aphorisms and vagaries because they dismiss an element of my life that is so deeply spiritual as "unknowable." That idea is discouraging to someone who spends so much time looking for answers and questions in music. To have you turn around and say that that hard work is meaningless? Do you think an architect doesn't really enjoy being in buildings? Not as much as you do? How could you know that?
quote: Posted by LW: There is a trade-off, though--in that it's harder to appreciate music with nothing "under the water". You become more discerning in what has "soul" and what doesn't.
You'd think that ours was a primitive culture afraid of knowledge and self-exploration....
oh what, it is. Please people, I know this all goes back to Adam eating the stupid fruit and losing the chance to spend an eternity frolicking disease-free in an orchard with eve. What he got in return was A LIFE. A life of changes and questions and independence, in the story you may believe in, from God. The moral is, at least to me, that we will always be children who are afraid that growing will hurt us, and believe that false impressions and half-images of the world will satisfy us all our lives.
Knowing something doesn't hurt you.
But it does make the tribes people jealous. So let's stop treating academic knowledge like the mark of Satan please, and let's all decide whether there is any aspect of our lives in which we would truly choose to KNOW LESS.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Orincoro and Launchywiggin, I'm not sure you both realize that "the kid playing the blues guitar" that Elizabeth posted is her son, Aidan, not some random kid she found on YouTube.
Not to sound snarky, but I wonder i'm not sure you know I haven't really said anything about that.
Actually, I am aware of that. I read through your posts very carefully before I posted. And while you haven't specifically said anything about Elizabeth's video, there are places that you're vague enough about what you're talking about that it could be interpreted as a slam on Aidan to someone reading fast, just like someone reading fast could miss the fact that Aidan is Elizabeth's son. So I thought that perhaps if you were aware of that fact, you might be a bit more careful in your phrasing.
Silly of me, I know, to think you'd care, since you seem to be going out of your way to be as dislikable as possible in this thread.
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quote:But the idea that your brother lost some ability to compose beautiful music in a composition program is a) wrong, b) entirely missing the point c) insulting.
You'd have to know Tom's brother to be able to make this statement with any authority, Orincoro.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Orincoro and Launchywiggin, I'm not sure you both realize that "the kid playing the blues guitar" that Elizabeth posted is her son, Aidan, not some random kid she found on YouTube.
Not to sound snarky, but I wonder i'm not sure you know I haven't really said anything about that.
Actually, I am aware of that. I read through your posts very carefully before I posted. And while you haven't specifically said anything about Elizabeth's video, there are places that you're vague enough about what you're talking about that it could be interpreted as a slam on Aidan to someone reading fast, just like someone reading fast could miss the fact that Aidan is Elizabeth's son. So I thought that perhaps if you were aware of that fact, you might be a bit more careful in your phrasing.
Silly of me, I know, to think you'd care, since you seem to be going out of your way to be as dislikable as possible in this thread.
If I were really going out of my way, I'd watch the video you're talking about. But I haven't. I have know way of knowing what's in it- other than watching it, which I doubt I'll do.
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quote:But the idea that your brother lost some ability to compose beautiful music in a composition program is a) wrong, b) entirely missing the point c) insulting.
You'd have to know Tom's brother to be able to make this statement with any authority, Orincoro.
Tom offers his own opinions about his brother as evidence in favor of his own views. I have a right to question the validity of his statement from my own experience. My only authority is my experience, and that experience tells me that he is wrong.
Besides, really, unless the composition program we're talking about actually caused his brother some kind of specific brain damage I'm not aware of, Tom's comment seems to be aimed at suggesting that his brother's experience is the common one, or a likely one.
I have a right to say that this idea in general is wrong, beside the point, and insulting. And specifically to do with his brother, I can say with confidence also that Tom is wrong. Even if his brother had been the one to suggest that this has happened, which I imagine to be the likely retort, (hatrack loves setting people up this way), I still think he'd be wrong.
Anyway, Tom's comments on his brother's work showed a pretty obvious lack of understanding, interest or patience with his brother, and taking that into consideration, I am even more convinced that he is mistaken.
Like OSC's past comments on students who's artistic souls are "crushed" by the academic music machine... they reveal a great deal of ignorance, fear, and pettiness. Plain ignorance, really, that's all it is. An image of a world that does not exist, full of scary monsters who have no teeth. I'm continually, and in new and exciting ways, shocked at the attitudes people are willing to admit online, knowing that I have seen their real life expressions mirrored hundreds of times by people who are unwillingly to believe that something they do not understand has any merit.
I do thank you for being willing to talk and listen, but understand where the frustration comes from, and how it is sometimes easily evoked. Stereotypes in all forms can hurt real people who fight against them. I'm not a minority, I don't have a disability, but people make the wrong assumptions about me all the time- and I can see it happening to others. I don't hesitate to make assumptions, but I try to be right whenever I do- and I learn each time I'm wrong.
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quote:I have a right to question the validity of his statement from my own experience. My only authority is my experience, and that experience tells me that he is wrong.
I read Tom's comments as being specifically about his brother. Do you have any experience with Tom's brother? If you do not, then you cannot talk intelligently on whether Tom's brother's musical capability has been weakened or strengthened by an academic composition program.
You may say, "My own musical taste has been broadened by my composition program. I feel like most of the students I know have had their musical capacity increased by their composition program."
But unless you know Tom's brother, you cannot presume to speak about his musical capabilities, and expect us to take your word over Tom's.
Also, remember that a bunch of us on Hatrack fall under the umbrella "academic intellectuals."
You are being requested to refine the tone of your posts, and you've admitted that you are being a jerk. Asking you to change your behavior is not the same as persecuting you.
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quote:You're the snob, thinking that what you don't like is totally lacking in validity.
No, you're still a snob. Maybe Tom's a snob too, but you're just saying "I know you are, but what am I?" here.
quote:This is as close as people on Hatrack come to outright bigotry.
This is false. People on Hatrack have gone well into "outright bigotry," and what KQ said doesn't even begin to approach the level of some of the slurs that have been used on this forum, since what she said isn't even a slur. She gave her opinion. It's an opinion you find insulting, but then some people are finding your opinions insulting too, so you should consider coming down off that high horse.
I even agree with the point you make about music education not being a "trade-off," but you need to get over both your superiority and persecution complexes. I love and am fascinated by music and considered pursuing it academically at the university level; my parents were both academics, so I have none of the anti-academic bias you rail against; I ought to be very interested in reading your posts. I ought to thoroughly enjoy them. And yet, neither of those things is true, because of the tone you choose to take.
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posted
It's always fun when people assert that something like music or cooking can be quantifiably judged, at least judged as to how much it should be enjoyed.
They can be quantifiably judged as to how difficult and technically well-executed they are, but seriously, who gives a damn about that? Only (some) of the people in the academic field of music.
Here's an assumption you appear to have taken to heart which you should reconsider: your opinions on musical issues are somehow more worthwhile than anyone else's, because of your training.
Music isn't science, at least not how people actually experience it. Not science like physics or biology or engineering.
Right now you're a minority of just about one around here. Ask yourself which is more likely: that (just about) everyone else is being unfair to you, or that you're inviting criticism by your behavior?
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quote: If you're talking about Bartok (my accenty button is not working) then man are you wrong.
I'm not talking about Bartok. Bartok did not die in obscurity.
------
My brother used to have a strong knack for simple harmony, and a good ear for a catchy, unique melody. I would find myself humming the things he'd put together, and I don't generally hum stuff.
Nowadays he spends seven months writing something that is deliberately unmemorable, calculating the wavelengths of a given interval so that he can express a waveform as part of a larger symbol that might be addressed in a later movement. When he attempts to write something actually worth listening to, however, he is crippled by his desire to make his music "artful."
I have no doubt that he will someday overcome this, but it makes everything he writes at the moment unpleasant to experience. If he intends to make a living as a songwriter or teacher -- and he does -- he will need to get over the "art" he is currently being taught.
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quote:They can be quantifiably judged as to how difficult and technically well-executed they are, but seriously, who gives a damn about that? Only (some) of the people in the academic field of music.
EVERYONE cares about how well executed music is. Not just academics. Because it's not just notes that go into execution, it's dynamics, phrasing, artistry--even "soul". Everyone also judges music as much as any academic. Not everyone can explain WHY they like what they like, though--that takes an understanding of the theory behind it.
I don't think Orincoro is asserting that his opinion is more "worthwhile" than anyone else's--but it DOES have more perspective and information--because we have music degrees.
The science of how people experience music is called "Psychoacoustics"--and if you listen to orlox's link, you'll find that your assertion is dead wrong.
And consider Orincoro's minority of 2 in a crowd of 12 posters--not that awful. While I'd probably use more tact than he does in regards to tone, I don't disagree with anything he's said.
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quote:EVERYONE cares about how well executed music is. Not just academics. Because it's not just notes that go into execution, it's dynamics, phrasing, artistry--even "soul". Everyone also judges music as much as any academic. Not everyone can explain WHY they like what they like, though--that takes an understanding of the theory behind it.
Yes, but very few people think of it that way. And certainly not to the extent and in the ways that people with music degrees do. And no, the casual listener does not judge music to the extent an academic does.
quote:And consider Orincoro's minority of 2 in a crowd of 12 posters--not that awful. While I'd probably use more tact than he does in regards to tone, I don't disagree with anything he's said.
This is about tone, mostly, so I don't really get your point.
quote:I don't think Orincoro is asserting that his opinion is more "worthwhile" than anyone else's--but it DOES have more perspective and information--because we have music degrees.
You must be reading different posts than I am, then.
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: Not everyone can explain WHY they like what they like, though--that takes an understanding of the theory behind it.
I agree with this to an extent. I'm not sure it can help me understand why I prefer some distorted guitar textures over others, for example.
I could be wrong about that, though.
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posted
One of the main reasons I majored in music was that I wanted to figure out why people like what they like--why some chord progressions really are timeless (at least to our Western ears)--and others are difficult to listen to. Listening to how popular music has changed from the medieval period to today really opened my eyes to how our ears (and brains) have developed and changed what is "likable" and what isn't over time. (This is especially applicable to the discussion about Tom's brother, because what he's doing might very well be changing how society hears music in the future)--Just think about how much our preferences change in our own lifetimes!
Personal preferences (like distorted guitar texture) change from person to person based on their personal aesthetic (what they find important in music and everything else in life). In order to be able to identify that you like "distorted guitar texture" instead of just being able to say "I like THAT--it sure sounds cool"--that took a certain amount of education in musical vocabulary and ideas. Now if you studied it further, you'd be able to find out what specifically ABOUT distorted guitar textures appeals to you.
That's essentially what music majoring did for me--it allowed me to be able to identify all the little occurrences and subtleties that make up all music, so that instead of just enjoying the overall picture from a distance, I can enjoy every little bit of it from under a microscope.
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quote:EVERYONE cares about how well executed music is.
Not all well executed music sounds good, and not all good sounding music is well executed. Most of the time I don't particularly care about the subtleties of execution as long as it manages to sound good to me.
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