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Author Topic: a disturbing trend
mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Are there in fact any men who find this attractive? The only men I've heard to express an opinion have been fairly strongly anti-crack.
A) I am strongly anti-crack.

B) I find it alluring in an extremely trashy sort of way.

C) A and B are in no way contradictory

D) There is no point D

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Tatiana
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I want to point out that this is the exact, I mean mathematically precise, same issue as women in burkhas in Afghanistan. The men there are simply responding to their physiological reactions, which are conditioned by their societal standards, the same way ours are.

Try to realize that to them, women's wrists are quite titillating. They feel the exact same surprise and scorn and cheap thrill when seeing an inch too much wrist as you do seeing an inch too much cleavage.

Think about that and what it means for the human being and child of God who lives inside that tent or lowrise pant, and earthly tabernacle.

There's no other way to change a societal standard except when enough people ignore it that it moves to a new setting.

Every generation is shocked at what the next generation does, just as they in their turn shocked the older generation. This has been true since the dawn of recorded history. Plato shook his head about "these kids today", you know? It's a common theme across centuries of literature. It was true for all 4 generations that I've personally known so far. [Smile]

[ January 11, 2006, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

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blacwolve
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See, I find sporting a plumber's crack to be absolutely disgusting. I don't really see how anyone can find it attractive. It's not an issue of too much skin, or really sex at all. I just think it looks disgusting and crude. To me it's the equivalent of someone walking around who smells really rank because they don't care enough about the people around them to take a shower. I'm actually incredibly surprised that anyone is relating it to dressing sexy, I can't think of a bigger turn off in personal appearence.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I can't think of a bigger turn off in personal appearence.
See, I can. Because if the woman in question has NICE hips, I don't particularly mind seeing more of them.
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GaalDornick
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Aren't you, like...married? [Wink]
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TomDavidson
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Absolutely. You'll notice I married a woman with nice hips, thus ensuring that I frequently get to see her naked.
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Dagonee
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If she had bad hips you wouldn't get to see her naked?
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GaalDornick
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"You'll notice I married a woman with nice hips"

Are you sure you want me to notice that? [Evil]

And you seem different Tom. I've never heard you joke around so much. You've made me laugh on a few different threads, IIRC. I never got the impression from you that you like to joke around alot.

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JennaDean
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Sorry for the long post, I've been thinking about this for 2 days. [Smile] I appreciate Tatiana's posts, they've given me a new way of thinking about things. I'm certainly glad that someone somewhere shocked everyone by showing her ankles, because now I can wear knee-length skirts and be totally modest.

On the other hand ... I keep thinking of jennabean's and Swampjedi's comments, and coming up with this:
quote:
Women have the right to dress provocatively if they please, but to expect men to ignore it is stupid.
Exactly, jennabean. That's why it is called "provocatively" - it's intended to provoke a reaction. But when they get that reaction, so many girls/women react with hostility: "It's none of your business how I dress! You shouldn't judge people by their clothes!" Perhaps they only want the right reaction from the right kind of guy - and all the rest aren't supposed to notice.
quote:
Orinigally posted by Swampjedi:
I can only speak for myself, but I do know it is more difficult for me to interact with women who are 'showing off' anything. My insticnt is to look - stare, even. That doesn't mean that I do. ...

It's very possible to be gentlemanly. It takes a conscious choice though, since my inner animal is howling at the moon. ...It's not your fault that my body reacts to yours in that way. It's not my fault either. What is my fault is if I do not ignore that reaction, and instead act on it. Conversely, any woman who 'shows off' and then is surprised when low class men (big value judgement there ) act like animals is short on intelligence, frankly.

These women are trying to attract attention from handsome young men - maybe even only one man in particular, for example, they "like to look sexy for [their] husband". Words like "provocative" and "sexy" are very fitting: they imply that the person is trying to provoke a sensual reaction in a man. But wearing those clothes where other men can see them also provokes the same reaction in those men - even if they try really hard not to see it! Sometimes they have to go around with their eyes half-shut in order to NOT notice all the girls who are trying to "provoke" a reaction. I'm not talking about pedophiles or rapists, I'm talking about the ones who never even say anything - just regular guys who want to treat women with respect, but get "crackage" shoved in their faces. They're still human. How are they supposed to not notice? And even if they control their behavior and are totally respectful, just seeing women dressed like that can make life difficult for men who naturally react to the provocation.

Obviously men need to have respect for women and not act like animals; perhaps women should have more respect for men and not try to appeal to their animal instincts while simultaneously expecting them not to notice or care.

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GaalDornick
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Nicely said, JD.
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Princess Leah
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>>>perhaps women should have more respect for men and not try to appeal to their animal instincts while simultaneously expecting them not to notice or care.

Or men could notice, and care, but not be @$$holes about it.

What about when MEN dress provocatively? And believe me, they often do. Do women all of a sudden turn to beasts? No. Men are not the only ones who "naturally react to the provocation", either. Am I the only one seeing really unfair double standards here? Is no one going to mention shirts open past the second button with oh-so-sexy chest hair showing? Short sleeve dress shirts? I swoon at muscles as much as anyone. Just don't be a jerk and everyone will be better off, and a girl will be able to go out dressed so that *she* thinks she looks good without everyone going into shock.

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JennaDean
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Or men could notice, and care, but not be @$$holes about it.

I was actually talking about the ones who aren't @$$holes about it - the ones who notice but are really trying not to, and don't say anything. I wish we could stop making life difficult for the good guys who are married and TRY to see only their wives. [Smile] I bet the 16-year-old girls dressing provocatively would be horrified to know they're being noticed (and "inner howled at") by the 30- and 40-year-old married men who see them!

There is definitely a double standard, though. Men who show their cracks are just gross and should STOP! [Razz] But I really do think there's something to the idea mentioned earlier that men are (in general) more visual in nature and react more strongly to what they see, while women are more likely to react to what they read and imagine.

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Olivet
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Do women turn into beasts? Well, there was this one time, Jenny Gardener and I were walking down the hall behind Frisco, who was wrapped in a towel...

It was a near thing, I tell you. I could hear the *yoink!* sound effect in my head and everything. [Evil]

He'd mentioned his third tatoo we'd "probably never see" and I'd had a single 4 oz margarita with dinner. But, no. I behaved myself. *halo*

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jennabean
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JennaDean, you are my favorite! [Big Grin]
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rivka
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*applauds JennaDean's posts* [Smile]
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Eaquae Legit
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Slightly off topic, but can I put in a request to all the Hatrack parents that if you send your kid to the pool or to camp, make sure he (or she, on occasion) has a properly fitting set of trunks (or suit)? Because if he has to pause every five seconds while sandcastle building to pull them up, they're too loose. Lifeguards don't like having crack on the beach. Especially not kid-crack.
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JennaDean
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[Blushing]
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erosomniac
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quote:
Exactly, jennabean. That's why it is called "provocatively" - it's intended to provoke a reaction. But when they get that reaction, so many girls/women react with hostility: "It's none of your business how I dress! You shouldn't judge people by their clothes!" Perhaps they only want the right reaction from the right kind of guy - and all the rest aren't supposed to notice.
*nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod*

Now, see, I'm now interpretting ElJay et. al.'s position as being: The standard for "provocative" needs to change, and NOTHING should be considered "provocative" - so that women can wear whatever they choose, without inciting a reaction.

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Storm Saxon
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quote:

I was actually talking about the ones who aren't @$$holes about it - the ones who notice but are really trying not to, and don't say anything. I wish we could stop making life difficult for the good guys who are married and TRY to see only their wives. [Smile]

If this thread and others are any indication, it seems like it's hardly men (married or otherwise) in general that need protecting from provocative dress. I think the bitching, if you notice, comes from the social conservatives of both sexes who are projecting their own discomfort about the clothes onto others and making excuses for their own feelings.

As a male, I would like to chime in with those who have said that it doesn't bother me in the slightest to see a good-looking woman dress provocatively. Quite the opposite. [Smile]

I would also like to point out that, to me, a good-looking woman dressed demurely is a million times more provocative than an ugly woman dressed 'provocatively'.

As has been pointed out in this thread by Olivet and others, women don't have to dress provocatively to get a reaction from some men. The men who are going to be dicks are going to do that anyway.

So. If jerks are going to be jerks regardless, and good-looking women are provocative no matter what, then what does it matter what women wear?

quote:

But I really do think there's something to the idea mentioned earlier that men are (in general) more visual in nature and react more strongly to what they see, while women are more likely to react to what they read and imagine.

I think most women pay a lot more attention to clothes than men do.

I think most women pay more attention to, say, decor and cleanliness than men do.

[ January 12, 2006, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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ElJay
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My position is not that nothing need be considered provocative. My position is that nothing a woman wears gives a man an excuse to harass a woman, because after all what did she expect, dressed like that? I don't believe you can say the second half without implying the first.

For the record, I don't dress particularly provocativly. I think it's tasteless, it doesn't really fit my body type, and it would not be appropriate at my workplace. But if I find the idea that if I should choose to do so I would be making life difficult for the nice men out there who just want to treat me with respect absolutely ludicrous. See Stormy's post for why, he said it pretty well. [Smile]

I have no problem with men noticing how I look, or appreciating the view. I have a problem when they express that appreciation in ways that go outside the bounds of socially acceptable behavior. I certainly enjoy looking at certain men, and I have no intention of stopping. But I also have no intention of foisting that appreciation on the in ways that would make them uncomfortable.

What I'm really asking for, I guess, is for everyone to act like adults and treat each other like human beings. Shocking, I know.

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Tatiana
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quote:
Originally posted by blacwolve:
See, I find sporting a plumber's crack to be absolutely disgusting. I don't really see how anyone can find it attractive. It's not an issue of too much skin, or really sex at all. I just think it looks disgusting and crude. To me it's the equivalent of someone walking around who smells really rank because they don't care enough about the people around them to take a shower. I'm actually incredibly surprised that anyone is relating it to dressing sexy, I can't think of a bigger turn off in personal appearence.

I have no problem with you finding the way your fellow human beings dress disgusting. Obviously that's not something you choose. Different people, cultures, times and seasons have different standards. The meaning of the same clothes is not universal. American women showing their shins in Kuwait today are attacked on the streets.

I guess my puzzlement is this. Why do you feel your disgust is somehow more correct than your schoolmate's comfort with how she looks?

What should Afghan women do today right this moment? A large segment of their society thinks that if they show their eyebrow or wrist, it is simply scandalous. In their society, there are many people who (exactly like blacwolve) are simply disgusted by women who dress "provocatively" by enlarging the eyeslit of their burkha.

I'm left with this logic:
1. Standards vary -> corollary: It's simply incorrect for us to assume we know what message is being sent by someone's clothes. If they have dressed in a way that we find disgusting, they most likely have a different standard than us.
2. Identical societal indignation is responsible for creating an environment in which women are horribly oppressed in other countries today.
3. Our own standards would be oppressive were it not for the brave women in our past who were willing to flout them.

How can we feel our high-horse position in favor of modesty is so morally defensible and ironclad in the face of these undisputed facts?

[ January 12, 2006, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

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Tatiana
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quote:
Originally posted by JennaDean:
Sorry for the long post, I've been thinking about this for 2 days. [Smile] I appreciate Tatiana's posts, they've given me a new way of thinking about things. I'm certainly glad that someone somewhere shocked everyone by showing her ankles, because now I can wear knee-length skirts and be totally modest.

JennaDean, I appreciate your posts too. I certainly agree that for our personal choices, modesty (for both sexes) by the standards of the society in which we find ourselves is a wise choice.

Because you're LDS (aren't you?) I want to add something that is revelant to the saints in particular. This is from the the Teachings of Joseph F. Smith, (for whom I feel a deep admiration and love), p. 376.

quote:
Immodesty in dress should be frowned down by parents and all decent people. The shameless exhibitions of the human form purposely presented in modern styles of dress, or rather undress, are indications of that sensuous and debasing tendency toward moral laxity and social corruption which have hurried nations into irretrievable ruin. Let not the brilliant prospects of a glorious millennium be clouded with such shadows as are threatened by customs and costumes and diversions of these licentious days.

In my sight, the present-day fashions are abominable, suggestive of evil, calculated to arouse base passion and lust, and to engender lasciviousness, in the hearts of those who follow the fashions, and of those who tolerate them.... It is infamous, and I hope the daughters of Zion will not descend to these pernicious ways, customs and fashions, for they are demoralizing and damnable in their effect.

We hear it reported, from time to time, that some ... mutilate their garments, rather than to keep them holy and undefiled.... We see some of our good sisters coming here to the temple occasionally decorated in the latest and most ridiculous fashions that ever disgraced the human form divine. They do not see to realize that they are coming to the house of God.

He was talking about women who show their wrists and ankles. There was a great controversy in the church at that time. You may be familiar with the design of the garments worn by our grandmothers.

My point is not to controvert my beloved Joseph F. Smith whose shoe latch I am not worthy to do up. I certainly respect and cherish his teaching that modesty is the right choice. What I want us to think about is if we daughters of Zion really ought to be covering our wrists and ankles today, and if not, what changed? How did that change come about? Tell me what you think.

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blacwolve
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Tatiana- I'm being kicked out of my lab, so just let me say this.

My disgust has nothing to do with modesty. I don't find it particularly immodest, and the same person could wear a string bikini and I wouldn't have any problem with it. I just think that it looks gross. So sure, that's my opinion, but please stop attributing reasons for it when I have repeatedly stated that those aren't my reasons.

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Olivet
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*applauds ElJay, Storm Saxon, Tatiana and just about everyone else in the thread. [Smile] *

I don't dress provocatively, as a general rule. My husband likes it when I tart up a bit to go out with him sometimes. [Wink] At these times, no one ever says anything, presumably because I am with my mate. (Though, HE did get verbally harrassed by guys in passing cars when we were in college and out together. It was usually something like, "WooEEE! Getcha some!" I found it a bit insulting to be referred to as "some", especially since I was always modestly dressed back then. But it wasn't that big a deal. *shrug*)

But there are men who will just holler at a woman alone if she is neatly groomed and within a broad range of attractiveness.

As one of my favorite stand-up comics said (in his Unrepeatable concert, which Ron and I watched las night) "It's a code. What they are actually saying is 'Hello! I'm a wanker.'" [Big Grin]

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oolung
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This is slightly off-topic, but I'm gonna write it anyway.

Isn't it interesting how it's all really in our minds? I mean, nobody criticizes us for showing almost all of our bodies on the beach, wearing swim-suits, but if we came to the beach wearing a bra and knickers, it would be slightly disturbing, wouldn't it? But what's the real difference between a bra and a bikini top? It's only the way we differantiate them because of their usage.

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smitty
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I think the difference is usage and location. A woman walking down the street or in your office in a bikini would garner quite a few stares, whereas on the beach, it would be considered normal.
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erosomniac
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See Asimov's "Hand on Thigh" story, from Prelude to Foundation.
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
A woman walking down the street... in a bikini would garner quite a few stares,
Depends where you live. Some places, women jog and rollerblade and walk their dogs in sports bras and short shorts and/or a bikini and a very brief coverup, and it's considered very impolite to stare at them, mention it in their hearing, or really notice it at all.
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smitty
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Good point. I was referring to the real world, not California [Razz]
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skillery
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I'll jump into the fire once more:

Why do ladies sometimes wear their "boob shirts" (I just watched Must Love Dogs), but still complain that men's eyes always focus on their chests?

If I see a woman in a boob shirt at the store or somewhere, I try to avert my eyes. Sometimes I take a peek at her eyes at the last moment before she passes. And do you know what? She's been watching my eyes the whole time, perhaps to see where my eyes would go.

I remember back in my dating years, if I made eye contact early before she passed sometimes she'd flash me a big grin. But if she caught you focusing on something else, she'd give you a look of scorn, you filthy little wanker.

I've tried never looking, and back in my dating years got some feedback about that tactic: "I thought you didn't like me."

I've observed a couple of single guys who are quite successful with the ladies. They first make eye contact and then move their eyes deliberately to the chest area (but never the crotch). That's pretty risky, but some good-looking guys get away with it.

So maybe there's some unwritten rules. Fellas have gotta realize that they're supposed to look, but only with her approval. If she catches you looking at the chest or backside without first establishing eye contact and getting an approving smile, then you're a wanker. If you establish eye contact, and you don't get that approving look, then you're not her type, go away without looking. If she smiles, then maintain eye contact, and only look when she breaks eye contact. That's the only time you are allowed to look.

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breyerchic04
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is the IU campus not the real world?
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skillery
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Oh, and don't pretend to know the rules. You're not allowed to know the rules. If you put forward a theory about the alluring clothes game, she'll hang you out to dry.
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oolung
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i think sometimes the 'looks' are not so unwelcome (presuming they're not blatanly lascivous). Last year I, let's say, changed my image a little bit. Nothing big, just bought a pair of nice shoes and started wearing skirts. But the effect was quite impressive! I immediately felt more 'noticed', and it made me feel good! Of course there are times when i want to disappear and get back to my old loose jeans, or when I'm too lazy to care, but all in all, a well balanced look from a normal looking guy can really give a girl a boost.

Which makes me think of complicated reasons as to why people dress up. You can't simply say: I want to be attractive to the opposite sex. Most people will probably say: I do it for myself, I feel better looking good. But then we often feel good _precisely_ because we feel attractive. Or we dress up because we don't want to stand out (if our friend dress this way). or whatever. Sorry, these are just random thoughts, it's late and I'm sleepy [Smile]

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Tante Shvester
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quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
If I see a woman in a boob shirt at the store or somewhere, I try to avert my eyes. Sometimes I take a peek at her eyes at the last moment before she passes. And do you know what? She's been watching my eyes the whole time, perhaps to see where my eyes would go.

Reminds me of my favorite TV series, Monk. "My eyes are up here."
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Tante Shvester
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quote:
Originally posted by oolung:
I mean, nobody criticizes us for showing almost all of our bodies on the beach, wearing swim-suits

By my standards of modesty, a bathing suit at the beach would definitely be a no-no. I rarely go to the beach, but when I do, I wear a long skirt, down to my ankles, long-sleeved, loose-fitting shirt, a scarf or snood over my hair, and a big shady straw hat over that. Oh, and canvas sneakers (wouldn't want anyone peaking at my toes!) Quite a character, I seem, I'm sure.
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JennaDean
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I like those thoughts, oolung.

Story: When hubby was younger (read: single) he saw a woman walking down the street (it was near the beach, but not on the beach, a street full of businesses). She was wearing a bikini and sandals. Guys in a truck drove by and made whatever noises guys do. The girl got irate, yelled back at them, gave them "the finger", etc. Then she stopped to look at herself in the mirrored window of a store - looked over her shoulder at how her butt looked in the bikini, and hiked it up. [Roll Eyes]
quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
For the record, I don't dress particularly provocativly.... But if I find the idea that if I should choose to do so I would be making life difficult for the nice men out there who just want to treat me with respect absolutely ludicrous.

Okay. But it's true. I know some of them. They're good guys. They don't want to look at women ... or rather they do want to, but they don't want to want to. No excuses for those guys who act like jerks; but there are guys that are uncomfortable, because they naturally react to seeing women dressed provocatively, and yet they know they aren't supposed to react. (Particularly if they're married.) It's only the good guys that are uncomfortable, probably, because other guys don't worry about whether they're supposed to react or not. And the women will never know which ones they are, because they don't react outwardly, and would never be so rude as to let the women know they're affecting them.

Just had to get my plug in for treating men with as much respect as we demand.

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Swampjedi
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Yes, thank you!

<loosens collar discreetly>

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pfresh85
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JennaDean just made me feel really good about myself with her defense of good guys. [Smile]
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Topher
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I don't find it offensive at all when a woman sport's crack (or when some men show butt crack, either).

First of all, the issue to female butt crack showing up at all is due to several different things.
1. Fashion - tight, low-rise jeans/pants combined with thongs, and other "sexy" underwear, create the perfect mixture for some crack slippage.
2. Not paying attention. A girl who is aware of her potential crack problem is most likely going to bend over facing away from others, hold their pants up, or buckle their belt tighter.
3. Ignorance...some girls just don't realize what's going on.
4. Not caring at all about the crack.

And...it's all good. Ass crack is going to appear no matter what - and it may not be sexy, or appealing AT ALL - but who says women always have to be put together or concerned about what others think. Or men for that matter. Then again, if they don't, someone is going to blog about it.

So, treat other's as you would like to be treated. If you were showing your ass all the time, would you like it stared at? However, just talk to them about it if it truly makes you (ass crack hater you) feel uncomfortable.

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jennabean
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Ew! I don't ever sport crack. And I'm a pretty "provocative" dresser.
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Swampjedi
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You keep hinting at that, jenna... we need proof. Pictures! [Big Grin]
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ElJay
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quote:
Originally posted by JennaDean:
Okay. But it's true. I know some of them. They're good guys. They don't want to look at women ... or rather they do want to, but they don't want to want to. . . . It's only the good guys that are uncomfortable, probably, because other guys don't worry about whether they're supposed to react or not. And the women will never know which ones they are, because they don't react outwardly, and would never be so rude as to let the women know they're affecting them.

Just had to get my plug in for treating men with as much respect as we demand.

I'm concerned that my response to this is going to be seen as offensive in some way. I'm trying hard not to be, and I apologize if it is.

This opinion has come up in discussion on Hatrack before. I've never heard it anywhere else. And it's not that the men I know in person aren't telling me because they don't want to be rude, as I said, I do not personally dress provocatively and I have had very close friendships with many men in which we've covered all sorts of topics related to sexuality and relations between the sexes.

Thing is, every time I can remember it coming up on Hatrack, it's been a woman who is very active in a conservative religion who has brought it up. I want to say it's always been an LDS woman who brought it up, but I can't remember if PSI is LDS. Men who are members of conservative religions will sometimes say that they don't like a style of dress, or something like in smitty's case in this thread that he knows of people who think that women shouldn't dress that way because it is tempting men to sin. Close, but not quite the same thing.

So, I believe that these guys that you talk about exist. I would hazard a guess that most of them are members of religions that value modesty, and have strict rules about what their female members should and shouldn't wear.

I live in a rather liberal and predominately Lutheran part of the country. The men I know in real life have attitudes similar to TomD, Stormy, or Topher's. They are not flustered by a provocatively dressed woman, and if anything discreetly appreciate the view. They would find the idea that women are being disrespectful by dressing in a way that catches their attention as laughable as I do. To me, it comes back to personal responsibility. . . I am insulted when someone suggests I need to be protected from myself, and I see this as telling men the same thing.

I understand that this is a cultural difference. I do not expect men from your culture who do feel this way to change. But I would bet you $100 that you could walk through my office (about 240 people) and not find a single man who agreed with you, or had even considered the possibility. The chances of my encountering a man who did in the course of my normal daily life are vanishingly slim. So I hope you'll understand why for practical purposes I consider men who think that way nonexisitant. I honestly believe that in my world, they are.

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Topher
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To Jenna

I don't think you should. It would definately decrease the attractiveness of whoever did.

However, I just don't it deserves any special negative attention.

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skillery
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We were driving around Las Vegas last weekend and I saw this billboard of a seated, jean-clad woman's backside that squicked me out. The billboard lady's thong-back was showing, which didn't bother me so much. The squicky part was what appeared to be butt-crack hair just above the thong.

As we got nearer to the sign it became clear that what had appeared to be hair from a distance was actually a tattoo with a lot of fine, black scrollwork. The tattoo turned out to be the call letters for a local radio station.

So ladies, please avoid tattoos with fine black scrollwork anywhere near the bikini region. Thank you!

Tacky billboard, by the way.

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Tatiana
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quote:
Originally posted by blacwolve:
Tatiana- I'm being kicked out of my lab, so just let me say this.

My disgust has nothing to do with modesty. I don't find it particularly immodest, and the same person could wear a string bikini and I wouldn't have any problem with it. I just think that it looks gross. So sure, that's my opinion, but please stop attributing reasons for it when I have repeatedly stated that those aren't my reasons.

Ah, I should have made it clear that my post above wasn't directed entirely at you. I'm sorry if it sounded like I knew exactly why you feel as you do, or am in any way dressing you down, for I'm certainly not! I only want to ask people to think about their own "automatic" responses.

The thing I want to ask you is that one question "why do you assume your disgust is more correct than your schoolmate's feeling of being comfortable with how she looks?" I think it's safe to say that it's obvious you and she have different standards, and that she feels comfortable dressed like that and you feel disgusted at it. The thing I'm really curious about is why *your* feeling in this situation should be the one that counts?

I think the feeling you describe is quite natural and it's very widespread. I believe the people in Afghan society, and also my beloved Joseph F. Smith feel the exact same feeling of disgust when they see more of a woman's body than they wanted to see. Perhaps your disgust is totally different than theirs. I'm not sure. You're very right that I don't know why you feel disgust, and I'm sorry for sounding like I did, but in any case, I don't disapprove of you feeling it. It's perfectly reasonable, natural, and acceptable for you to feel that.

My only question is why your feeling should prevail over her own feeling of comfortableness?

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Glenn Arnold
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I gave my lesson on internet safety yesterday and the day before. I don't like doing it because I'm don't believe in teaching children to live in fear, but there's certain things you don't do if you don't want to be victimized.

That's not a matter of making it the woman's fault if she's raped, it's a matter of not wanting to be raped in the first place.

But it goes beyond rape. I know I lower my opinion of a woman if she's wearing the hooker uniform. And BTW, I've mentioned this before: I used to know a teenage hooker, and she was quite clear that she wore a uniform. Cleavage of either kind is advertising, whether you like it or not.

Add to that the fact that teenagers refer to themselves as "Pimpin'," "Ho," and "Porn Star," I don't see how it's possible not to make the connection. Girls are wearing the clothes because they've been led to believe that's the only way to win some kind of sexual competition. But in the end they're just demeaning themselves.

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Tatiana
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Glenn Arnold, maybe they just have different standards in their generation, similar to the way your generation's standards are different from the generation before you, and probably shocked them.
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foundling
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quote:
I know I lower my opinion of a woman if she's wearing the hooker uniform.
quote:
Cleavage of either kind is advertising, whether you like it or not.

Wow. So, when I wear a shirt that shows cleavage, I'm advertising to all the men out there that I'm ready and willing to accept money for sex?
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Storm Saxon
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All the hookers I've ever seen or met were pretty laid back in their dress and weren't vamps at all.
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porcelain girl
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i wear low rise jeans because they are much more flattering and comfortable to higher waisted styles. i have a larger rear and big thighs. Higher waisted jeans are harder to find that actually fit said rear and thighs, and even if they do they dig into my stomach when standing and exponentially so when sitting. in high school i had to unbutton my jeans when i sat down so they wouldn't cut into my stomach.

i used to wear g-strings all the time because i like not having panty lines and it was better for dancing. but now that i ride my bike and work in a comic store where i am constantly bending over and crouching in front of customers i have tried to find a compromise.

my new solution is wearing boy shorts and hip hugger style underwear in very obvious and fun prints that are more playful than sexy, so when i bend over my buttcrack is covered even in my lowrise pants. some people may still have a problem with it but it truly is the most practical solution all around. i move better in lowrise jeans and would you rather have pink polkadots or butt crack???
while on my bike i can intitially give my pants a good hike, but after that there is no way to keep my shirt from tugging up or my pants from sliding down. hello green and yellow stripes!

and double amen on long shirts. whoever decided women looked better and felt better in cropped shirts was an ass.
some brands like hanes, etc are still making their women's shirts wider and shorter --- what sense is that??? brands like american apparel, eyeshadow, and realitee are all about longer shirts that still have shapely waists and feminine sleeves.

though i openly admit to very occasionally dressing suggestively, most of the time i am honestly going for my own tastes and what is both comfortable and pretty. my mom has always let me wear tank tops and the like, and once an older friend gently chastised me for dressing in a way that attracted the wrong kind of men. i was mortified and totally embarassed.
and though acknowledged her opinion, i disagreed with her. as a dancer i was always around scantily clad people and saw the human body as work of art. i think cleavage can be both sophisticated OR trashy. boobs shouldn't have to disappear! I really am for modesty, but i have since found that my definition of modesty is vastly different from many people, especially in the LDS population. for example i am okay with nude modeling for art classes, many of my neighbors were shocked at the notion.

but again it is all in intent and presentation. there are some nude photographs i consider art, and others i consider pornography. likewise, there are some lowcut dresses i consider elegant, and others i consider skanky. i guess it's just up to the individual to be honest with themselves as to their intentions.

and yes, i was once wearing a bandana, batman t-shirt, and blue jeans and had a bunch of construction workers lean against their fence and hoot and pretend to grab at my crotch.

jerks are jerks, no matter what you wear.

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