quote:Nope. Lots of Levites. I probably know a dozen or so offhand.
For starters, somewhere between half and two-thirds of all Jewish males with the last names "Levy," "Levi," "Levitansky," "Levin," etc. are probably Levi'im (Levites).
Does membership in the 12 houses or tribes (I hope that's not offensive, I'm not sure what the right word is) run along matriarchal or patriarchal lines? Can a person belong to only one house?
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: What's the connection to the Sanhedrin?
One of your articles talks about a newly-formed group calling themselves the Sanhedrin. This group recognizes that G'd may choose individuals more suited for the position, at which time they will gladly step aside.
Actually, I don't believe they said that God will choose greater individuals. That's not really God's job.
quote:Originally posted by skillery: The scripture says that Jehosaphat chose the judges who comprised the Sanhedrin from among priests, Levites, and heads of household.
Ah, I see. The thing is, Levites, and the subset of Levites who were the priests (Kohanim) didn't generally have land to cultivate. As a result, they were most often the teachers and sages at the time. But it needn't be that way, and it isn't nowadays.
quote:Originally posted by skillery: We have priests and heads of household even today, but where are we going to find Levites? They're dispersed aren't they?
<laugh> All Kohanim are Levites, by definition. But there are many, many Jews who we know to be of Levitical descent.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Does membership in the 12 houses or tribes (I hope that's not offensive, I'm not sure what the right word is) run along matriarchal or patriarchal lines? Can a person belong to only one house?
Tribes is fine (houses might be confusing); the actual word is shevatim (singular, shevet). Membership in a shevet is by patrilineal descent. One to a customer. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Thank you for the clarification. Must one be Jewish (i.e., must ones mother be Jewish) to be a member of a tribe?
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posted
Yes. And technically, someone whose mother is Jewish but whose father is not is tribeless. But I have a vague memory that there is a way to get "adopted" -- I think.
Anyway, with the exception of males who are members of the tribe of Levi (a subset of whom are descendants of Aharon), there is not much practical concern with knowing what tribe one is from. (Currently, at least. Most of it has to do with traditional inheritance of specific parts of the Land of Israel.) Many people (like me) are not even sure which tribe they belong to. (Although the majority of non-Levi'im are from Yehudah.)
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For the roles which require Levi membership, have records been kept, or are there presumably a lot of people who are Levi'im but can't prove it and are thus excluded from those roles?
(If I'm getting too questiony, just let me know.)
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quote:For the roles which require Levi membership, have records been kept, or are there presumably a lot of people who are Levi'im but can't prove it and are thus excluded from those roles?
Yes, and yes.
Families kept records, often. Communities did as well. But there is a fair bit of evidence that there probably are many who rightfully are members of the tribe but cannot prove it.
Yet another reason we wait for Moshiach, who will clarify such issues.
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posted
The tradition and knowledge is passed down father to son. In shul, three times per week, we read from the Torah. The first one to get called up for this is a Cohain (Priestly Class), the second one is the Levite. Generally, the congregation is also aware of who is a Levite.
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posted
Out of interest, how will you recognize the Messiah in order to build the temple if one of the qualifications of the Messiah is building the temple? Does the first person to build the temple without pissing off all the other Jews on Earth win?
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posted
Sort of. There is a status of "potential Moshiach" -- and we believe there is (at least) one such individual in every generation. (There is a list of requirements that must be met. )
But we would not know for certain that any specific individual was actually Moshiach unless and until he ushered in an age of peace, complete with a rebuilt Beis haMikdash. Dying before completing this task knocks you out of the running.
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quote:I don't believe they said that God will choose greater individuals. That's not really God's job.
I think we should give God some say in the matter. Perhaps the fact that He allows a certain person to live and draw breath and to gain priestly wisdom at all is job enough. Perhaps the fact that these Sanhedrin fellows were of one mind and able to form a consortium at all is sign enough of God's approval.
Thanks for your responses to my questions by the way.
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quote:I don't believe they said that God will choose greater individuals. That's not really God's job.
I think we should give God some say in the matter.
Um... not really. I mean, God is the Creator of everything, and He has an implicit say just by being able to, you know, blow up anyone He wants gone. But when it comes to this, it really isn't for him to say. I'm not being flip, either.
quote:Originally posted by skillery: Perhaps the fact that He allows a certain person to live and draw breath and to gain priestly wisdom at all is job enough.
<nod> Except that we aren't talking about priestly wisdom here.
The Sages teach that God gave three crowns to Israel. The crown of kingship is in the hands of David and his descendents. The crown of the priesthood is in the hands of Aaron and his descendents. And the crown of Torah, which is above both of those, was given to all of us. The Sanhedrin is that. There are and were Kohanim who were great Sages and scholars, but being Kohanim has nothing to do with it.
The Sages also teach that a mamzer (illegitimate, "bastard") who is a Torah scholar is preferred to a High Priest who isn't.
quote:Originally posted by skillery: Perhaps the fact that these Sanhedrin fellows were of one mind and able to form a consortium at all is sign enough of God's approval.
Thanks for your responses to my questions by the way.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Yes. And technically, someone whose mother is Jewish but whose father is not is tribeless. But I have a vague memory that there is a way to get "adopted" -- I think.
I'd be curious in finding out about the being "adopted" part. I was raised being told I was Kohein, only to find out I wasn't because of my father not being Jewish when I started doing my own research. Though it does not appear to be a big deal anyways.
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posted
I don't believe there's any way to be "adopted" into a tribe. Converts and the children of non-Jewish fathers are tribeless. That's why the Torah is constantly going on about not oppressing the "convert, orphan and widow". The word "ger" is often mistranslated as "stranger", but it doesn't mean that; it means convert.
There was a camper up at Ramah when I was on staff who claimed to be a Levi. The first week of camp, all the kids fill out cards with their Hebrew name, their father's Hebrew name, and whether they're a Kohen, Levi or Yisrael. For purposes of being called up to the Torah. He'd put down that he was a Levi.
One day I was talking with him generally, and he mentioned that his father was a convert. I did a little double take, and said, "But you said you're a Levi." He said, "Yeah, my Mom's father is a Levi, and they didn't want me to have to be just a Yisrael, so they said I could be a Levi."
Needless to say, that didn't go over really well.
There's a story I've seen told in various versions.
quote:Once, so the story goes, a young man went up to his Rabbi and said, "Please Rabbi, I want to be a Kohen (Priest). Will you convert me into one?" The Rabbi told him that he could not oblige. He approached others and got the same response every time, "Sorry, I do not have the power to help you!" Desperate, he approached a rogue, who was known to be amenable if tempted with a very substantial "donation"...
"OK", he finally said, after agreeing on the price. "Trust me; I'll turn you into a Kohen." So he performed a home made "conversion ceremony". After the cash changed hands, the well-satisfied young man got ready to go.
Tapping him on the shoulder, he asked him, "Just one thing. Why did you want to become a Kohen?"
"Well, it’s like this – just between us, you see. My father was a Kohen, my grandfather was a Kohen, and before he died, my father told me that his grandfather was also a Kohen..."
posted
You want to know a super cool thing about Kohanim? They have been able to genetically test to confirm that they really do descend from a common ancestor. When I read about that several years ago, it just knocked my socks off.
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posted
I heard about that, very cool.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I showed a friend of mine the thread and this is his reply.
quote:wow... I want to cry.. ok, first you have to understand something, the Jewish people have received a "hardening" of sorts, which the old testament says itself would happen. God said "see, I lay a stone in Zion, which causes men to stumble" in Isaiah.. this is Messiah.
ok, here are all the old testament verses that speak of messiah... but just before I give them to you, you should think about another thing here too. armageddon in old testament and new testament books gives us a full picture. A ruler will come (who will be called the anti christ, and all Christians, and Muslims agree that he will be Jewish) He will "he will confirm a covenant with the many, for seven years". He will make peace, between muslims and Jews. He will rebuild the temple as a symbol of peace, not just for Jews, but for all people. There will be 10 kings of 10 kingdoms that will stand together as the worlds greatest.. 3 of them will "fall away" and the "smaller horn" (anti christ) will become greater than all of these. 3 and a half years after the rededication of the temple by the Jew (oh ya, he is going to claim to be the messiah... ain't that convenient) he will desecrate it and people will see the abomination that causes desolation standing where it aught not. he will Sacrifice a pig on the altar in the temple and "Sit in the temple of God and declare to the whole world that He is GOD." At this point Daniel in the O.T. says "Desolations have been decreed... war will continue until the end"
What I am saying is that the jewish people, who are truly God's beloved, are setting themselves up for a fall, and they don't even realize it.. infact, if you were to tell them this I imagine they would be indignant and insulted.. I feel like crying for them.. used a verse from Isaiah to describe them. you'll recognize it
37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. "38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"[a]
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40"He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."[b]
nowhere does it say that Messiah will build a third temple, infact it only said things about a new Covenant from Messiah (Jeremiah 31:31-37). The guy who said anything about the third temple being built by messiah is a liar. He's not doing the research himself, he's being indoctrinated with what sounds reasonable (and to a Jew, without the new testament, that does indeed sound reasonable) oh, by the way, if there is no concept of Hell then why weren't the jews confused when Jesus made references to it? oh, and of course you'll have to explain Zechariah 9:11..... and what christians believe in a heaven with harps and clouds?? oh right, those darn catholics again. (rolling eyes sarcastically, for a touch of humour)
anyways, here are some Messianic prophesies, in order. use biblegateway.com to check em all yourself.
1 chronicles 17:1-15 (*10-15) psalm 2 Genesis 49:10-12 Zechariah 9:9-13 psalm 72 Deuteronomy 18:14-22+34:10-12 Jeremiah 33:14-16 Jeremiah 23:5-6 Isaiah 11 Isaiah 4:2-5 Isaiah 7:10-14 Isaiah 9:1-7 Zechariah 12:10-13:1 (not a war leader, Isaiah 9:5, Zechariah 4:6, Hosea 1:7) (he will proclaim peace to the nations, and all nations will be blessed through him) Micah 5:2 Isaiah 49:1-6 Isaiah 42:1-9 Daniel 7:13-14 here's a tough one to understand : Daniel 9:24-27 also understand this, many of the jews, have been hardened and much of prophesy is still under a seal, so that we can't fully understand all things yet (Daniel 5-13) Zechariah 9:13+ Isaiah 49:6 should tell you that the Gentiles are the ones who will bring the salvation of the anointed king to all ends of the earth. now... what else off the top of my head?? hmm.. ah yes, of course this has nothing really to do with the christ, but let's see if you can solve it Malachi 4:5-6
also remember, scripture thus far has let you know who he is, that he was God, that he was LORD, that he was going to be born in Bethlehem, that he has sovereing power, that he has the words of God in his mouth, that he will "free jewish prisoners from the waterless pit, because of the blood of God's covenant with them", and that he will endure as long as the sun and as long as the moon, and that his days are the days of eternity... let's go on to the cool one
Isaiah 52:13-53:12 suffering of the servant, and the Glory of the servant
btw. the messiah was to be a messiah bringing a new covenant as replacing, and equally as pinnacle as the one Moses set down (Jeremiah 31:31-37). the need of this new covenant was so that salvation could be received by all nations (have you ever read Leviticus? Try Leviticus 19. anyways, I'm sure you get the point, also, that Jews saw sin with the price tag of death. "the life of an animal is in the blood". so they did this, and of course Moses killed a perfect lamb and people put the blood on their doors to excape from their deaths, Jesus was killed on the passover as prophesy would have it. Also read Psalm 22 and you will see that Jesus quotes verse 1 of this in aramaic, on the cross, and his dying words were "It Is DONE"... read the whole psalm until the end.. oh and keep in mind that Cruxifiction was not yet historically introduced to the Jewish people.. So he was supposed to come, bring the end of the world, live forever, Dye for our sins, rule on Davids throne, reject the Jews as his priests but make a sword of sorts from a combination of (Zion and Greece)'s descendants, and have the Gentiles bring his salvation to the ends of the earth. let alone the impossibilities of Identifying the messiah now. Seeing as Daniel gives us the exact time of his coming, and when he would be "cut off" is around 32AD, even though there are seven years unaccounted for (that's the tribulation, that's coming soon), that no Jew today can trace their lineage perfectly back to David, and so prove it was his descendant, nor could any other man I know of be born of Virgin birth. Given the evidence, there is absolutely no reason to deny that Jesus was the Christ, Messiah of God spoken of in the Torah and Prophets. Jews today are hurt by christianity. They see it as a Greaco-Roman mutilation of their religion, and all they see historically is the church hating them and persecuting them, and all the while, they are waiting for this coming salvation, this coming deliverance promised for them... their eyes see, but they do not perceive, even though it is clear as day and right in front of them.. What I'm saying is that their beliefs are based on interpreting the old testament, while ignoring the new testament and treating as false what their fathers treated as false.. if there were no new testament... then they would be arguably in the right.. but since their is, and it is obvious that they have chosen to ignore it because their people previously have, their fathers, and Jews do consider it a disgrace to become a christian, then they have neglected to take into account the truth of the one, Messiah. Don't worry though, a remnant will remain before God, always, there will never fail to be Priests before the Lord. And Revelation tells us that when Zechariah 12:11, and Isaiah 11 are fully completed 144,000 will be sealed for the Lord (Revelation 7).
I feel broken over these people, I would long to speak to them myself, face to face, to show them that I say these things with love.. all while abiding in me a frustration because of their stubborness to hear. But God Calls them stubborn in the Old testament and warns about this kind of stuff.. you know what, I'd like you to Read Romans 9:30-11:36, and also Romans 2:17-3:2 to see how Paul, a devout Jew saw his people. oh, and if you want his statement of faith you can look for it here Acts 25:23-26:32 or 9:1-19. I suggest you read the first one, but if you want, read both.
well, that's all for now, I'll talk to you later then. Shalom
... also as a side note here, if Jews don't believe in an afterlife then Where did Enoch Go? Genesis 5:21-24, seeing as all the others end with "and then he died".. ? and did they just completely miss chapters 1 and 2 that says that God created Heaven and Earth, and all that was in them? And finally, if they didn't believe in hell how come the pseudepigraphical books such as 1 enoch are riddled with afterlife references and an apparent obbsesion with the afterlife???
posted
Do we really want to start a scripture debate? I know Lisa is up to the challenge, and I am always happy to study up on how to refute this stuff.
By the way he obviously didn't read the thread because it has been clearly stated several times that Jews do believe in an afterlife.
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posted
He's thoroughly wacked out, I'm sorry to say.
Personally, I'm neither indignant nor insulted. My reaction is pretty much the reaction I'd have to someone standing in the middle of the sidewalk and screaming about conspiracy theories. Sort of an, "Oh. Hmmm, let's just move to the other side of the street before this guy gets violent."
In any case, this thread is called "On the Messiah in Judaism". I think we're all aware that Christians have a somewhat different view, but it doesn't seem any more relevant to this specific thread than what Buddhists or Taoists or Zoroastrians might have to say on the subject.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Do we really want to start a scripture debate? I know Lisa is up to the challenge, and I am always happy to study up on how to refute this stuff.
Not a chance. Not here. I couldn't do it without mortally offending a lot (if not all) of the Christians here. And I'm certainly not going to address a second hand rant.
No offensive, Blayne, but your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. "Hardening", my heinie. He's probably spent too much time reading the "Left Behind" books.
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posted
Not to intrude but my head would explode if I didn't say, just for the record, that I think Blayne's friends views are bizarre and frightening.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Not a chance. Not here. I couldn't do it without mortally offending a lot (if not all) of the Christians here. And I'm certainly not going to address a second hand rant.
I agree. I'm just curious as to Blayne's purpose for posting that.
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I see you are a Methodist pastor. My fiance was raised Methodist and still believes. She has agreed to a Reform Jewish wedding, and to not raise our future children Christian. I feel bad sometime because I feel like I took a part of her belief system away, even though it was her choice. If she were to start attending church would she be ostracized in any way by the church? She was also scared away by one church she attended whose Pastor was somewhat of a screamer.
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posted
Stephan, that sounds like it could be an interesting thread. There's a little button up at the top of the page that says "New Topic".
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Honestly, if not for hatrack I wouldn't know that there are people who believe that stuff.
Really? I see it all over the place. It's part and parcel with the "In case of Rapture..." bumper stickers.
(My favorite variant on those is, "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?")
Back in high school, I read a book called The Seven Last Years, by a woman named Carol Balizet. It's actually a fun book, though most Jews I know would probably be unable to read it.
She sort of did in a single volume (which I own, and have probably read 4-5 times) what Lehaye and Jenkins took 10 interminable books to do with their Left Behind series. I read the first one of those, and aside from the mediocre writing, the pace was so slow I wanted to throw the book across the room.
And NBC did this "Revelations" miniseries, and, well, this stuff is pretty much all over the place. I mean, you have people with timelines marked out on their walls in magic marker.
And Jews... well, they have this love-hate thing about us. On the one hand, they need 144,000 of us to go over to the dark side (sorry), but on the other hand, we're supposed to be suffering miserably as a sign that we blew it 2000 years ago, and the reality is, we're doing pretty okay, and some of them get irked at that.
I expect that love-hate thing to tilt towards hate as the Bnei Noach movement gets more and more into gear. A lot of former born-again types have taken that road. Jim Long, who wrote "The Riddle of the Exodus", is an excellent example of how that's happening.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Stephan, that sounds like it could be an interesting thread. There's a little button up at the top of the page that says "New Topic".
heh, actually maybe i'll just email him.
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posted
I work at a university, sing in Irish bars, do some peace activism, attend a very liberal Catholic Church and work in theatre. I live a very sheltered life.
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posted
Sounds cool. There's an Irish bar about a block from where I live, at Touhy and California. Do you ever sing there?
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posted
Hmmm. Don't think so. What's it called? I sing mostly downtown, but at Nevin's here in Evanston sometimes.
Feel free to e-mail me if we don't want to get too far off topic.
And I do know these people exist, I just don't travel in the same circles. I sometimes seek them out so as not to become too complacent.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I'm just curious as to Blayne's purpose for posting that.
Oh, Blayne is a touch inscrutable. He marches to his own percussion section. I just went and moved on.
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posted
I might have, too, except for that phrase "all Christians". As we know saying "all Christian anything" makes Kate cranky.
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DKW = Dana K. Washerlastnameonceuponatime Her. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I showed my friend the thread, he read it and he sent me his views and I posted it. However, while I generally respect Hatrack I'm somewhat midly surprised that there hasn't been a single attempt to refute his view on this matter, I respect my friend alot he treats me like a human being and I hang out at the CF club because I can relax enjoy a good debate and not worry about being judged or etc etc.
My firend as far as I can tell quoted scripture I dont have a very good understanding of it since I'm not particularily religious so I ask, is it possible that there can be a counter arguement to his arguement and not just "pfft /ignore".
Now the Left Behind series, what correlation is there exactly? All I know from the 10 minutes I watched of 1 movie is that there's this person who with the newly formed "Global Community" gets the world to disarm and takes over or soemthing close ot it I never finished it.
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Christian Fellowship. They're nice people. Just opposite of the Jewish Club and the Muslin club is down the hall. All nice people but there doesnt appear to have been enough Jews interested in the club to actually open the club sadly.
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posted
If you click my name at the left, you can see my profile and learn more about me!
quote:Profile for Tante Shvester Member Status: Member Member Number: 8202 Registered: June 08, 2005 Posts: 5548 Email Address: Click here to email this user Location: New Jersey Occupation: Nurse Homepage: http://tinyurl.com/9xbdk Interests: Mitzvos!
Or you can read it right here!
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quote:while I generally respect Hatrack I'm somewhat midly surprised that there hasn't been a single attempt to refute his view on this matter
That's because his view is ridiculous, Blayne, and to treat it seriously would be to treat it with more respect than it deserves. Moreover, the people who are most qualified to discuss why it's ridiculous would have to tread carefully to avoid insulting other potential readers, since Scriptural interpretation is often a matter of religious doctrine. And since he's not even a member of this site, it's not worth the risk.
------
As for the Left Behind reference: your friend is an apocalypse nut. The Left Behind series is a very poorly written but sadly very successful series that panders to that demographic while pretending to scriptural authority.
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