I read it a while back...and just got it back from my aunt (who I loaned it to). I am now reading it for the second time. I have to say, it is Jordan's best book in a long time. I really loved Egween's (sp?) actions in the white tower. I thought the way she brought people to her was a lot of fun to read.
Though, it pisses me off that that sister rebelled against her, and then taught Elaida how to travel, along with the other secrets that the little tower had found.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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It was betterthan the previous two...although that isn't saying much.
I liked his newest one even more, although I am a little burned out to be honest. I can feel him tugging at my wallet.....
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But it definitely was a lot better than the last few. Jordan still has an awful tendency to verbosity and not getting to the action, but I at least felt somewhat rewarded for my patience. Instead of a dozen plot threads carrying on forever, a few of them actually had resolution. He could have resolved a lot more, though.
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quote:I have to say, it is Jordan's best book in a long time.
There's a low bar.
True....he was going downhill for a while, but I thought he picked it up a bit with his previous book (though it still wasnt' great). I thought this one was actually very good.
I was very disapointed with the way the series went, since the first few books were excellent.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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I swear, if I have to see Jordan describe, in detail, the garments of another minor character whom I don't care about, I'm just gonna snap and take a gun to work. And if he does it using the exact same describers (low/high neckline, color, opacity, tightness), it's going to be a fully automatic gun.
That said, I'll still be reading till the end of the series (it looks like two more books). I have to know what happens to the characters... Expect to see me on the news soon.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I liked that series untill it got to the point where he was writing thousands of pages were nothing got accomplished and thousands apon thousands of side stories starteed untill you lost track of who any of them where. Knife of dreams was the best one in a long while though because it actually accopmlished some small somethings...but not enough.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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IT NEEDS TO END!!! I can't take much more of this series extender crap. The worst part is I keep making it worse when I buy the lastest ones.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I have recently heard a couple things. First that it will end in either the next book or in two. But the bad news is that also somewhere in there Robert Jordan is going to drive us closer to suicide with two more prequal books. The horror...the horror...
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Well, hey, let's all agree to drive him to suicide instead by not buying any of the prequels. Fair is fair.
I'm going to get them from the library, which is my usual solution for authors who have degraded very noticeably, but whom I still read in the hope that they will return to the path of righteousness. Turtledove gets the library treatment, too.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I read the first hundred pages and realized I didn't really remember who the characters were anymore - and I definitely didn't have the time to read the past few books to figure it all out.
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I've read up to book 7 I think and then... I just never finished it. I play on a couple of Wheel of Time muds and yet I can't seem to make myself finish that book and continue on. I will one of these days. I enjoyed the first 3 books very much and after that it's been more that I've felt obligated to read the rest. *sigh*
Posts: 37 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I read up to book 8 - only read #8 because it was a gift - and am now determined to read the last chapter of the last book to see how it turns out, if and when the last book is ever published.
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I should clarify that I mean to read the last chapter of the last book and skip the rest until then.
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I read it, and agree that it was much better. My only frustration was that my favorite storyline was Egwene's, and Jordan spent the least time on that. He spent a lot of time on Matt, and that one really wasn't doing much for me.
-o-
Someone taught Elaida how to travel? Now why don't I remember that?
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I really enjoyed it. And it was a good setup for the last book (though, that may be split by the publisher if it's size is too big.)
Loved Matt and Egwene. And finally, some resolution. But the last book is finally nigh (in two years, anyway.) The end is in sight.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I read it, and agree that it was much better. My only frustration was that my favorite storyline was Egwene's, and Jordan spent the least time on that. He spent a lot of time on Matt, and that one really wasn't doing much for me.
Ditto. Mat's story really dragged out, and Perrin's did a little bit, too. I would've liked to see more Rand and more Egwene.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Yeah, Perrin's chapters in book 4 were some of my favorite fantasy.
Then I read up to book 9, and I don't really remember anything else of interest happening with the character.
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Also, here's an interesting corrollary: has anyone noticed that as the books have gotten worse, so has the cover artwork?
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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After Book 9, I decided only to buy WoT used, in paperback. Book 10 stopped me flat.
It was so... Insulting. It's really the only word for it. When you have hundreds of pages in which nothing of significance happens; when you refuse to wind up plot threads for three books in favor of giving major characters long, drawn out sections of brooding; when you can almost hear the author going, "And... Cliffhanger! That should get the plebians to buy #11, despite the lack of plot movement!"...
Crossroads of Twilight is the only book I can ever remember interrupting my reading of to read a different book, and then reread that different book, rather than continue the slog. I consider it the second worst book that I've ever finished. (I'll tell you the first, but only if you promise not to gratify the author by picking up a copy out of curiosity.)
It caused me to decide one of three things had happened. The short form: Jordan is treading water, trying to get all his plot elements to come together; Jordan has lost all control, and is hoping if he keeps writing things will somehow re-coalesce; or Jordan has ceased to care, and is pumping out a meal ticket.
All I really want to know, I guess, is can #11 possibly, possibly be so good as to banish those fairly firmly planted ideas from my mind? Because I really can't see sitting through another near-thousand page whopper, just to have the author tweak my nose and go, "Thanks, sucker!"
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: It caused me to decide one of three things had happened. The short form: Jordan is treading water, trying to get all his plot elements to come together; Jordan has lost all control, and is hoping if he keeps writing things will somehow re-coalesce; or Jordan has ceased to care, and is pumping out a meal ticket.
*Possible Spoilers*
I agree whole-heartedly. All that about the forsaken coming being reincarnated makes me stop and think, "what in god's name was the point of the first 6 books!?" Everything else was clearly pointless. The only other thing I can think of is that he decided, beforehand, that this series was going to be 13 books long; 13 being such a magical number in his series. After about book 3, he realized it was going to be more work than he thought filling that many volumes, and started dragging it out. I think with book 11 he finally realized that he needed to start wrapping stuff up, albeit half-heartedly: he can't even let Moiraine rest, apparantly. By mid-book-13 I predict his writing will just be a frantic mess of attempted catch-up. Sigh...the saddest part is I'll still read them too. I have to know.
Edit-Please don't read the following:
OMG I can't for Wheel of Time Book 92: Eyes of Hideous Screaming PAIN!!!1!!!1!111 Wasn't book 68: Doom of Doomy McDoomDoom the best!? LOL!!!11
Edit-You were warned.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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First of all, I agree with you about Crossroads of Twilight. With the exception of the Matt/Tuon scenes, nothing seemed to happen. Oh, sure, behind the scenes, pieces were being moved, decision were being made, and things were being set up. But, like most everyone else, I like to actually read about stuff happening in a book. I do like the behind the scenes stuff. But not a whole book of it. And book 8, Path of Daggers, was similar. It was so very frustrating, though that book had a bit more plot movement than COT's glacial speed.
I will say that book 11 is good. Enough happens that I was satisfied. (Would I say this if I didn't know that the next book (12) is going to be the last? I'm not sure. Context sometimes makes things more acceptable). And keep in mind, I have been reading these since '93, so it's not like I haven't been frustrated after waiting 2+ years for a book (like COT) only to see nothing happen and know that I'd have to wait 2+ MORE years to see what happens next. And everyone, please save your comments that I should just give up the series. I can't. Many reasons. For the most part I do enjoy it, despite the admittedly huge flaws/let downs. It represents a period in my life, a huge one and when it is over, while glad, I will also be sad that there will be no more WOT books to read. Plus, I am obsessive compulsive when it comes to stories, even if I dislike them. Only true disgust and hatred will make me not finish, and I certainly don't feel that here.
The way I see it, the story is made up of a number of movements.
1-3: The identification and proclamation of the Dragon reborn as the last battle approaches(and all the chaos this generates). This primarily deals with Rand accepting who he is. Along the way, 4 forsaken die, key items are found, key nations are now revealed as major players.
4-5: Rand attempts to make the world recognize him and impose his will on the world, while the remaining forsaken work on their own schemes. The impression is that, while powerful, the forsaken weaken each other as much as Rand, and Rand is able to pick off another forsaken (Moiraine gets the other, even while she 'dies'. But even then there are prophecies indicating that Moiraine was going to come back. She is the Gandalf character, after all). In my mind, this inflates Rand's assessment of himself and causes him to underestimate the effectiveness of the Dark. I truly believe this point, which I'll touch on later.
6/7-Current: (Keep in mind that Jordan has stated that Lord of Chaos/Crown of Swords is actually one book) The DO has taken direct control of his minions, through the resurrection of Ishamael. He has brought back a few forsaken to serve as goads and has eliminated (or subsumed) the other's personal schemes into one grand strategy. Rand, having underestimated the Dark, has ignored numerous indication of what the dark is up to. He has carried everything on his shoulders. Yeah, he's set up a number of things to help him. And he's cleansed saidin. But in a way, all of that has served to inflate his sense of accomplishment and distract him from the real danger. He's not really delegated to anyone or has not seen those who he will really need or how to confide in them. He's too brittle, emotionally. Most of all, he has not united to world against him and has no idea how to do it. Though he doesn't know it, the dark has him in check and is about to checkmate. As RJ said, he is 'on the ropes' and HE DOESN'T EVEN REALIZE IT!
We know that the light has to win. But the tension now comes from the question of 'how'? How can he win? Some of his key people are probably Dark Friends or even forsaken. The Dark has been breeding an army for 6 books and the blight has been quiet, so when it does come, it will be a flood. The world is rife with enemies who would bring him down regardless of the threat, and chaos abounds. There is his own Black Tower that is NOT loyal to him at all and likely has a large number of Dark Friend Ashaman all ready to take their place as dread lords. The White Tower is too busy trying to mend (or break) fences to bring it's power to bear to support him (and if they do, they likely will try to take charge, despite his being the Creator's proxy). And one of his creator-given supports, Perrin, has become so fixated on his wife that he has ignored his job completely.
Yes, there are a few glimmers of hope: Matt-Tuon, an alliance with the Seanchan, the cleansing of Saidin, the bonding between Aes Sedai and Ashaman, Egwene's mending of the tower. All of that has potential. But still it doesn't look good.
When looked at that way, the series is still good. None of that excuses the interminable Elayne/Andor struggles or the endless descriptions of clothing. But they make them more bearable.
And book 9 lets you know that things are about to come to a head. Things DO happen. The end is in sight.
I want to see how it ends.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I started with book 1 five years ago and read as fast as I could through them all and I think that I only got somewhere around book 7 or 8. Then I forgot all about them while waiting for the next. I thought they were getting irritating then, c'mon let Rand purify saidin already.
It was nice to see the synopsis though, IanO thanks. At this point, I have other stuff to read but if I get bored, I'll pick it back up.
Posts: 697 | Registered: Nov 2005
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The series will finish with book 12. Bring a forklift to the store to pick it up.
The remaining prequels will not come out until after he starts his new series (described as Shogun in Seanchan).
I think that the middle of the story does bog down, and that some of the writing is out of the bodice-ripper style-book. but I like WoT better than the Martin series. But I couldn't get past the first Martin book, so YMMV. (In fact, my experience was like the one above, I re-read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales when I got stuck half-way through that first Martin book, picked up the Martin book again, realized I really didn't care, and threw it out. And I never throw out books.)
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Actually, Jordan has *never* stated (until now) how long the series would run. He would give guesses when asked online or at signings('maybe 5 or 6 more books, but we'll see') but never more than tentatively. Part of the problem is, as Jordan has admitted, the story sometimes gets away from him, and so elements that he planned for one book don't occurr (compare the synopsis for Path of Daggers, written before it was done, with what actually happened, and you'll see what I mean.)
But this is the first time he has been definite about the next being the last. Now, the publisher might have some say regarding cost of printing vs length issues, so it's possible the next book be printed as two. But in either case, that's still something definite.
I think Crossroads of Twilight was a watershed for him and his publisher in many ways and showed Jordan's 'mortality'. After all, most agree the first 5 books were good if not great. After that, opinions vary, but enough felt that 6 was good as to not make a difference in his or the publisher's mind. Add to that the fact that book 7 is actually part 2 of book 6, and criticism for that book (which wasn't bad at all) sort of goes out the window as well. Though, you'll notice, he never wrote another 2-part book again. (I, for one, really enjoy 6-7, when combined.)
Path of Daggers was the first time that people were generally unhappy, though there *was* some action. That is where things really started to bog down. In fact, one can almost date it from the moment Elayne, Nynaeve and the Windfinders fled Ebou Dar, fixed the weather and Elayne began her interminable quest to ascend the Lion throne. Time seemed to jelly and slow down, from that point on. Not just with her, but with everyone. There were some saving graces, of course, but overall the taste it left was bad.
Understandably, there was some tripidation over book 9, Winter's Heart. But for me WH redeemed book 8. That book returned to it's roots. A lot happened, the intrigue was still there, questions were answered, and it felt like the plot moved significantly. At that moment, in hindsight, book 8 seemed like the lowest point and that Jordan had caught himself just in time. There would be no further screw ups.
And then book 10, Crossroads of Twilight. Book 10 showed that while 9 picked up the plot, he still had way too many things to show. For crying out loud, the first 1/4 of the book occurs the same day as the end of the previous book, albeit from different angles. The WHOLE book was setup. About the only plot element that moved AT ALL was the Matt/Tuon relationship. That was funny and realistic. But NOTHING ELSE actually seemed to happen. It was, all of it, set up for the next book.
After the slowness of 8 and the promise of 9, book 10 was a slap in the face. For the first time, long time fans at the RJ newsgroup (which dates to the very early 90's) who had been RJ apologists couldn't defend him anymore. There was nothing to say. The reviews at Amazon, at Barnes & Noble, on all the hundreds of site were pretty much unanimous. This book sucked. Nothing happened.
And RJ and his publisher realized they could piss off their loyal fans, not just casual readers. They could lose readers (and no doubt did, as many decided they had had enough.)
So RJ buckled down and tackled the difficult task of reigning in a story that had gotten away from him and moving the story to resolution. And he did it, at least well enough for me to be satisfied.
I just hope that he can keep it up for the final book. It will be. He knows that he bought himself some time with this book. But any more screwing around, and few people will read the last book when it does arrive.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Of course, he swore up and down it would end at book 8 as well.
I will never believe that the series is over until Jordan has been dead for 5 years.
And then, when he has been dead for five years, Kevin J. Anderson will team up with Robert Jordan Jr. and write several more books.
Posts: 276 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Yeah, but those won't be part of the series any more than the new Dune or Amber books are part of the original series.
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KJA is a hack and it is a wonder Brian Herbert let him (and assisted in) raping his father's universe.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I'm trying to imagine how The Wheel of Time would look different if it were written by a hack.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I always warn new WoT readers to not get their hopes up too high. But even the worst book from WoT is infinitely better than the 'best' book from the Dune 'prequels.' The Dune prequels are simply the Worst. SF. EVER. Star Wars is better. Star Trek is better. William Shatner's novels are better.
Spock singing the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins is better.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I am still trying to figure out how RJ can spend so much time on minute descriptions. I know this has been complained about, but I want to know what his motivations are. I mean, as bad as reading those long, pointless passages are, if I had to write all that fluff, I think I'd go mad.
He really gets into his descriptions, and either that means he is masochistic or he has a wonderful talent to mentally immerse himself into the surroundings of his books so that he really is enjoying himself. If the latter is true, too bad RJ doesn't realize the rest of us are not in love with the novelization of fabric colors, fashion designs, and wall tapestries.
Or are all of us complainers just the result of an impatient, ADD culture that can't appreciate the finer beauties of descriptive literature Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: (I'll tell you the first, but only if you promise not to gratify the author by picking up a copy out of curiosity.)
Okay, I'll bite. What's the worst book you've ever read?
quote:Originally posted by IanO: After all, most agree the first 5 books were good if not great
Who are these "most" of whom you speak?
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Usually, when reading complaints about the later books (which you can read at Amazon or on the newsgroup), some people will comment on the the series initially was good. For the most part, the comments mention AT LEAST books 1-3 and many will include 4 and 5.
If you don't share that opinion, that's fine. No skin off my back.
RJ's descriptions? Yeah, I don't get it either. When I write, I have to FORCE myself to describe things, to create the environment. And even then, I give only enough that is necessary. It is a labor and stops the action and emotion cold. How that guy can churn it out as easy as breathing is...not amazing, since that implies it's a good thing. I can't think of the proper word.
Even King's increasing verbosity isn't about the environment. Instead, he tells you every little inconsequential thought that pops into character's head.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I don't know how those who claim the first several books were great can ignore the clear fact that the first one was the worst of the lot. Seriously, it's a horrible, horrible book. The only reason anyone would continue beyond it is if they got a really good recommendation from someone else that the next books were much, much better (which I got). However, that doesn't explain how the first people got past the first book in order to make a recommendation to their friends.
The quality picks up markedly with the third book, and peaks with the fourth. The decline doesn't get really serious until about the seventh or eighth.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Marlozhan: if I had to write all that fluff, I think I'd go mad.
I have a theory that he doesn't so much write descriptions as aggregate them. As someone else mentioned earlier, they generally have the same basic elements (e.g. low-cut, snug-breeches, opacity, etc.) I think he just has hot keys for a bunch of stock phrases and he types out page long descriptions with a few keystrokes.
Did anyone else notice how much folding of arms beneath breasts occured in Knife of Dreams? I counted for a 50 page window and found the phrase (or slight variations) used a dozen times. I would randomly yell them out to my wife as I came across them throughout the book.
As for 1-5 being good, I would disagree. Book 1 was good. Book 2 was a stretch. Books 3-11 are an abomination. But that's just my 4 ha'penny's worth.
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