posted
He did state in the first post that he was asking the question because he was writing an essay on the subject for a psych. class.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
The moment that I told you this information was to be used in a thesis on sexuallty, and you still choose to participate you became willing. I have appologized. And I could have let you go on not knowing. I let my conscience overwhelm me. I couldn't let myself sleep til' I had told you the truth about the experiment.
I am still sorry, and I think that if givin the chance to do it again, I don't think I would have.
But what is done is done. I will try to make ammends, but I can rest knowing that I told you the truth rather than leave you in the dark.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I hadn't realized that you had said it was for a psych class. I'm sorry for jumping on your case, Advent.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Hmm, well It will take me a while to transfer it to comp text. The essay was over 50 pages by the time I finished my examination.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Yeah. I had to sit back and read a printout of every post and then analize how I felt the stress of the subject matter was affecting each persons response. I then had to evaluate every persons possible sources from which they gained their opinions from. And trust me, that was just the begining of it. It took me forever to properly organize this data and more. It would take me at least two full post pages to show how I examined the data I collected from this thread.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Hm. How confident do you feel that you were able to correctly identify where people's opinions came from? It seems to me that that while there would be a few people for whom that would be easily determined, for most people your evaluation would almost have to be something of a shot in the dark.
I'd be interested in reading everything you've produced in conjunction with this. Maybe the easiest thing to do would be to scan it, save it somewhere, and post a link to it. Or not; no idea if you have easy access to a scanner.
Out of curiosity, why did you write this out by hand?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Well like I said, I had to analize not only each persons view individually but also the source of how they might have come to these conclusions. It was not a "by the majority people think such and such". It was an examination of every persons ideals on the individual scale. I must say though, it took me a while to try to properly examine your mind pH. Not to mention I didn't just examine everyone from how they behaved her on this thread I aslo had to examine other threads each of you participated in so as to find a reference point to how you would act when not under stress of a complicated subject matter that varies from person to person. So to give you an idea how much research I had to do, I've been analizing just about everyone who participated for over three months.
After all this research I feel like I need a long nap. After all, you are very complex inividuals (especially you pH).
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Well I had more free time while I was away from any comp access (did it at work). And no scanner sorry. But what I reallized after turning in the essay was that it was aslo an analsis of how I was processing the information I was collecting about all of you, and how well my proffesor felt I had examined each of your psychological states at the time of your response. It was a bit of a shot in the dark, even after my examinations of most of you in your more relaxed states in other threads. But I can't even remember now what I found about 1/2 of you now. That much data is just too much for my mind to handle.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
My views on sex (as well as the views of MANY other people on this board) don't just come from religion...they come from upbringing, environment, personal experiences, and plenty of other things that really can't be shared on a public forum.
That's my main concern, really.
I mean, there are guys who know me in real life, and who have known me for quite some time, who still misinterpret my views on sex and their origins.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who experiences this sort of thing.
posted
I had to take into account a variety of factors that might or did influence each and every one of you. Though I am still uncertain as to wether or not my eventuall conclutions were correct
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I'm with fugu—this is considered a pretty serious ethical offense. I remember being specifically warned against this kind of research more than once. It doesn't really matter that you said that you were writing a paper about this. What matters is that you didn't say that you would be using people's responses as part of your research.
Worry about ethics first, and then you can worry about the "purity" of your results.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Though I am still uncertain as to wether or not my eventuall conclutions were correct
Frankly, I'm pretty sure they weren't. What methodology did you use to expose and isolate those factors that you felt contributed to our responses?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
So what were your general conclusions, Advent?
I'm not sure what to think about this thread, I'll have to think about it. But I'm glad I didn't participate (I think I didn't.) I would feel better if there was something in the title.
quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: Because I am trying to make a survey of Hatrackers responses for an essay paper I am working on.
Advent's post minutes after starting the thread.
There was some disclosure on the first page. But what about participants who didn't read the 1st pp? The disclosure seems like corporations do when they bury junk in the fine print of EULAs.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
*laugh* If you're making all this up, you're doing a piss-poor job of it, and if it's for real, I feel sorry for your eventual clients because based on this example your education is going to be sub-par and ethically spotty.
But just out of curiousity, why in the world would you think people would be stressed talking about sex and relaxed in other topics? Maybe of the other threads on this board are much more complicated than "do you think sex is important in a relationship." I put less thought into my posts on this thread than most, because I had to worry less about hurting other people's feelings.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I'm still coming back to the fact that you wrote a 50 page essay out by hand. A person could do that, but I've never met a professor who would have accepted a handwritten work of that length. Did many of your classmates turn in handwritten material as well? Did your professor say anything about the fact that it wasn't typed?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:But for the sake of the purity of my results it was required that you not be informed of the real purpose of the examination.
This is per se not an acceptable excuse for circumventing informed consent. Because almost any experiment would benefit from the subject not knowing they were being experimented on.
I was in a negotiation seminar last semester, and the professor wanted to track performance on the exercises by a variety of factors: age, sex, race, prior education, prior work experience, etc. To participate, we had to fill out a questionnaire to enter this information. This was done after the exercises (they were part of the class).
So, to participate, we essentially had to fill out a census form. This still required IRB approval and informed consent. The informed consent was pretty serious - longer than the questionnaire.
I really hope you explained your methodology honestly in your paper.
That's assuming, of course, that there even was a paper.
They also require this form be submitted when deception is necessary:
quote:Post-Debrief Release Form for Deception Studies Project Title:
During the experiment, you were asked (Describe the task.) You were told that the purpose of the study was to (Describe the deception). This is not true, (Explain the actual purpose of the study and describe how the deception worked.)
Because you were deceived, you now have the right to refuse to allow your (Specify what materials will be used)* to be used and to ask that they be destroyed immediately. If you do so, there is no penalty. You will still receive full credit (or payment, if applicable) for the experiment.
If you agree to include your materials* in the experiment, they may be reviewed and analyzed by graduate and undergraduate research assistants.
___ I give permission for my materials* to be used in the analysis for this experiment.
___ I do NOT give my permission for my materials* to be used in the analysis for this experiment. Please withdraw them from the study and destroy them immediately.
You will receive a copy of this form for your records.
The only exemptions from IRB review are:
quote:46.101(b) Research activities in which the only involvement of human participants will be in one or more of the following categories are exempt from this policy (i.e., review by a human participants committee):
46.101(b)(1) Research conducted in established or commonly accepted education settings, involving normal educational practices, such as:
(i) research on regular and special education strategies, or (ii) research on the effectiveness of or the comparison among instructional techniques, curricula, or classroom management methods.
46.101(b)(2) Research involving the use of educational tests (cognitive, diagnostic, aptitude, achievement), survey procedures, interview procedures or observation of public behavior, unless:
(i) information obtained is recorded in such a manner that human participants can be identified, directly or though identifiers linked to the participants and (ii) any disclosure of the human participants' responses outside the research could reasonably place the participants at risk of criminal or civil liability or be damaging to the participants' financial standing, employability, or reputation.
4 6.101(b)(4) Research involving the collection or study of existing data, documents, records, pathological specimens, or diagnostic specimens, if these sources are publicly available or if the information is recorded by the investigator in such a manner that participants cannot be identified, directly or through identifiers linked to the participants.
posted
Yes, this is an extremely serious ethical offense in a university setting. In order to do studies like this (without informed consent, which saying you're going to be writing a paper isn't) you absolutely must have approval from your university's human subjects committee. Since you're not intending to publish the results, the offense isn't the sort that would warrant possible expulsion, but its pretty bad.
This underscores one thing too many schools are missing: an undergraduate experimental ethics course required as a prereq for any class that might involve human subjects experiments.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
First, keep in mind that it is possible to fire a tenured faculty member for publishing a study conducted without IRB approval (almost always meaning prior informed consent on the part of the participants).
Second, here's an anecdote about how hard it is to fire tenured faculty. A number of years back, a professor here at IU was essentially running a prostitution ring using his students as prostitutes -- he was convicted of this in court. This was not sufficient grounds to fire a tenured faculty member (though I believe they have removed the loophole), so they paid him a lump sum representing the rest of his pay as a professor and his entire pension package, then told him to get out.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I've always wondered about people able to pull stuff like that off. Considering the likely reaction of asking someone to work in your prostitution ring, this guy must have been pretty charismatic and persuasive. Someone capable of pulling this off could have easily done something more productive and possible more profitable.
Although, since he got his future salary and pension in one lump sum, I guess it was pretty profitable.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm also trying to wrap my head around Advent turning in a fifty page handwritten report and getting an A+ on it. That would have never flown even back when I was a student, and it was much more difficult to get computer access.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
He was convicted, but apparently managed to escape prison for the most part (I'm not up on the entire story, but I believe there was a plea bargain involved).
mph: yeah, no professor I know would accept anything handwritten other than on an in-class test or short assignment.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Fugh, that was my first thought too, that it would've been a written essay test, but no test I ever took had 50+ pages for an answer, and dammit, I was an English major.
As for the IRB, Dags is totally right. And Fugu, about the ethics course. The idea of conducting an experiment including human subjects without any sort of informed consent is unethical.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: (I feel like such a *blank* about this now)
There's a reason for that. It's because you are a *blank*.
Is your next psych paper about the responses of an online community to childish manipulation and lies? If so, mark me down in the "Not angry, but now has nothing but scorn for the experimentor" category, please. Or was there really no paper and you're just chuckling at the outrage? Once again this seems like a control fantasy: "I'm the psychologist and you are all my test subjects!"
Straining to keep this post within the forum rules, I have to say that you were not one of my favorite posters around here but I thought you were starting to get better. (Specifically, you weren't starting multiple ego-trip threads each day like for a while there.) Now, however, those tiny specks of respect that were starting to build up go laughing merrily out the window.
I hope you read this post, because it is the last time I will post in a thread you start. With the possible exception of putting "Warning: Advent has proven disingenuous about his reasons for starting threads in the past and you should not post anything here that you wouldn't want ending up in his term paper or self-aggrandizing power fantasy."
Have a nice day, Advent! (preferably somewhere else)
posted
Advent, I can understand not wanting to type out the full essay for us, but what about posting some excerpts? You could, say, post what you came up with for one or two people. It'd probably be a good idea to get permission from them first, of course, but I doubt you'll have any trouble getting a couple of people to give you their blessing.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I only used this thread as a personal (for my eyes only, no paper or anything) to see what everyone here felt about sex. I felt that it would not be a huge suprise if everyone felt they were being examined. I never wrote a paper on any of this. I did however attempt to analize every asspect of how each of you thought.
I never thought it would be taken as an offence if you thought you had participated in an actual study.
So I am sorry for blowing my joking statement out of proportion.
I swear that I never did a paper for anything other than my personal study of you who participated. I swear upon the blood of my father, my hatered for my step father and the life of my nephew that it was only a damn joke that I got nervous about and kept lying after you all started taking it seriously.
I think I'll leave Hatrack now. And maybe not come back.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Advent, you can leave Hatrack or stay -- at least for now, this seems to be your choice alone. And, for what it's worth, if you were to leave, you could also come back later if you chose.
But if you stay, or if you leave and then come back, it would be important for you to understand why this interaction worked out to be a real problem here. This has in part to do with inauthenticity, although there are other reasons, too.
If you don't get why this makes people not want to be your friend, than it might be a very good idea spending some time figuring that out. It's an important life lesson. We all have to learn it at some point, at least if we want to live harmoniously with others.
-------
Edited to add: Making friends can be tough. Trying to figure out on your own what works and what doesn't makes it even tougher.
You can ask for help, you know. Every time you ask for help, though, make sure to give something back that isn't focused on you. Having a mutual give-and-take of attention is really important to friendship, too.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Yes. When you start telling some-and you still haven't-maybe people will give you some measure of respect. That people have been willing to up to this point is a measure of how friendly Hatrack is, seeing as how basically everything you say about yourself and your life sends a BS Detector blaring warnings.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Actually, none of us would have taken offense if you'd just been straight with us from the beginning. We talk about sex here fairly frequently, and you were an active member in a multipage discussion on the subject just days before you started this one, so I'm not sure why you thought that it would be such a touchy subject.
If you leave, good luck with your life. I hope that you can take some lessons from why your interactions with people here have been so rocky.
If you stay, just stop lying to the forum and people will eventually come to trust you again, more than likely--this is an incredibly forgiving group. If you're going to stick around, though, my advice would be to come clean about *everything*, not just the lies on which you think people have already caught you out.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Some people love the internet because they can live out a fantasy and pretend to be something they are not. They feel that nothing they do on the internet is "real" or "matters".
But Hatrack is a different sort of place. It is a community of people who know each other well and place a great deal of value on being real, truthful, and trusted. There is playfulness here, but people know the difference between "play" and "real." That line is respected.
There is a history and a culture, a unique social style. For the internet, Hatrack is an old place. Ancient, some might say. You don't just walk into an ancient culture and try to turn it on it's ear.
Compulsive liars *never* last here. They always get caught in their "crying wolf," and frankly, the people here are *very* good at seeing through lies.
But Hatrack is also amazingly kind and forgiving. It takes time to regain trust, but it can be done. The only way is to *never* repeat the offense. No more crying wolf. At all. Ever. But it *is* possible.
Example: Advent, most of us *seriously* doubt you are as old as you say you are. Though you very well might be. Because of your tendancy to lie, everything you say cannot be trusted. If you lie about one thing, why should we believe anything else you say?
So, what if you really are 14? You fear people here will respect you less for it? You are wrong. They are far more likely to respect a 14 year old who is intelligent, thoughtful, and *truthful* than a 20 year old who lies and acts immature for his age. You wouldn't be the first teenager to lie about your age on Hatrack in effort to get respect.
But, please, if you want to be respected here, above all else, do NOT lie about your age. *Especially* if you really are 20. Trust me on this. You won't regret it.
Being truly accepted at Hatrack for who you *really* are is one of the most rewarding things you can experience. Yes, I think that highly of this community. I've never seen anything like it. It would truly be worth your while to stay and try to learn and grow and BE REAL. Don't try to rule, humble yourself and try to learn.
Accept that many of the people here may have more experience and/or know more than you. It is intimidating at first, but if you respect the people here, they will respect you.
So you are curious about sex? Well, who isn't? That is nothing to be ashamed of or hide behind a school assignment. If you are curious about something, ask openly, respectfully, politely. You'd be surprised how warmly received you will be for just being yourself.
posted
I'll level with you: what makes me uncomfortable about this whole thing isn't the lying -- which was always painfully obvious -- but the level of your interest in pH, Altariel, and some of the other young women on the site. Most of them are completely capable of watching out for themselves, but I don't think all of them are, and I really wish you -- and a few of the other young men on here -- were at the very least a bit less obvious (and, ideally, a bit more respectful) about it.
I know some of the girls on here encourage that sort of pursuit, but you don't need to take the bait.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Let me tell you a little story 'bout a man named Ced...
Advent, I hope you read this. All the way through.
A long time ago (in Internet years) another person pulled pretty much the same self-aggrandizing stunt. It also turned out to be a lie, as was fairly obvious because he too was so ignorant of the subject area (Sociology in his case) that he claimed he was doing research in.
Ultimately, IIRC, he was banned but I don't recall if it was for that offense or something else. I like to think it was for that.
He probably got a chuckle out of it because: a) his s/n became synonymous with being a "poser," on this site, so he gained a bit of immortality, so to speak. b) he could always sneak in here by logging in from a different IP address using a different name. The mods aren't that tight on the security. He probably had a few other sn's after the banning and when he got "outed" those were banned too. c) many of us really did believe him, to the point that more than one of us contacted his supposed educational institution.
You (and he) messed with MY chosen field. As a PhD in that field, I feel that one of my responsibilities is to "police" it from within, so that horrid abuses like those that have happened in the past are made less likely. If I hear of research that violates the standard subject notification rules, for example, I feel honor-bound to report it.
Ultimately, the community of scholars in this (or any academic discipline) is not so large that a student couldn't be tracked down and ratted out to their professors, despite attempts to hide identities, locales, etc. And most people don't hide that stuff well anyway.
At most of the places I've been associated with, the kind of think you claimed to have pulled here would result in instant academic probation. Your professor would have a bit of explaining to do as well if they had, for example, failed to explain how the world works. It could be REALLY ugly.
It's just something we don't joke about.
You have already "joked about it." If you are actually are pursuing a Psych degree (not that you've ever said this...but I have to bring it up), I urge you to think very carefully about how you wish to be perceived in that community. There are few "cardinal rules" in that community, but violating any of them, even as an undergrad, is something that can follow you for a good long time. Even joking about these few "boudary" issues is enough to get you a sour reputation.
So...if that's an area you're interested in, sober up and don't do something like this prank again.
Now...as for Hatrack, you crossed a line in maliciously lying to us. Twice, and maybe more. Does that mean you can't be here? No, of course not. It does mean that some of us will never beleive another word you say. Some will mentally put you on "probation" and start trusting you sometime in the future, if you earn it. But hey, there're also people who probably thought this was all pretty funny and will enjoy your next prank just as much. And there are always newbies who won't know about this episode at all and who will just take you to be whatever person you project yourself as from here on out.
Unless you've done something that gets you banned, you have an opportunity to be something at Hatrack other than "that kid who pulled a Cedrios." No-one is stopping you from just being yourself -- a mostly pleasant young man with talents, insecurities and a mix of intelligent and not so intelligent thoughts to share.
If you have the guts to be that person, I would welcome the transformation. Your predecessor (Ced) couldn't manage it. He never stopped being a poser, from what I could tell. You might do better.
So far, you've apologized, and that's a decent start. I think you may not have fully understood what facets of this issue you might wish to apologize for, so that's part of why I wrote this long post.
More important, and more difficult, would be to use this as an opportunity. Turn around, try being you. Be honest.
The easy thing now is to leave. I count myself among the people who wouldn't miss you if you did leave. I'm angry at you and I think you hurt something that I care about.
But I'll get over it. It's not THAT important...if you figure it out and be a better member of this community, that would count more. Taht would be the more difficult road.
In fact...I challenge you to do just that. Now that you've soiled the nest. Help clean it up. Stick around...knowing that people now know you are a liar and not above cheap pranks. Stick around and earn people's respect. To me, that's the only way you can make this up to the people here. By making contributions here that ultimately overwhelm our memory of your childishness.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I am only coming back long enoguh to say this beverly, I only lied about my age by a few months.
ANd to prove it, I was born May 16th in the year 1986 at approximatly 3:06am. In the small town of Pryor, Oklahoma where my father now deceased 16yrs worked. I have since lived in Alalbama, Texas, Arizona, and now live in New Mexico.
So don't ever question how old I am. I take great pride in my age and how I have lived through very rough times (bankrupcy, death of close family, an abusive stepfather who I caught cheating on my mother, and other hard events).
So if you ever dare to question my age you pathetic little (BLANK!) then you can go to (BLANK!). I swear this on the blood of my father. Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
1) That proves diddly-squat. To prove it, I was born August 43rd in the year 1176 at approximatly 5:11 am, in Atlantis. Don't ever question me about it.
2) If that's what you took from beverly's post and that's the way you're planning on talking to people who are doing their best to give you good advice, then I hope you meant it about being gone now.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
beverly was trying to help. Many of us have begun to question the truthfulness of all your statements, because you have proven yourself an unreliable narrator.
It really, really takes some doing to get that kind of reaction here.
lots of people have tried to help, by reaching out to you with explanations of why you may be getting negative reactions. Believe me, I have embarrassed myself on this board more than once (though not for a long, long time. *knocks wood*
Mostly, Hatrack is a forgiving bunch. Sorry you're having such a rough time, but attacks and name-calling don't really help -- they just squander the goodwill extended to you. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: I am only coming back long enoguh to say this beverly, I only lied about my age by a few months.
So don't ever question how old I am. I take great pride in my age
So wait, if you take such great pride in your age (and why on earth would your age be something you take pride in? All you have to do to achieve a given age is not die), why did you, by your own admission, lie about it?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:lots of people have tried to help, by reaching out to you with explanations of why you may be getting negative reactions. Believe me, I have embarrassed myself on this board more than once (though not for a long, long time. *knocks wood*
That missing parenthesis must be really embarrassing. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Advent -- what you have done is wrong and detracts from the "safety" of participating in the Hatrack community.
I'll probably get over it, but unlike Bob, I hope you and others like you just go away rather than stick around and work it out. (I haven't achieved that state of personal enlightenment that allows one to forgive easily. Thank you for being a good role model, Bob.)
The little bit I posted in this thread is probably no more or less than I would have posted in another thread on the same subject -- but the thoughts people post here deserve to be treated with respect.
Which you did not -- I hope you don't treat people IRL the same way. Regardless of how you have been treated in the past. That's no excuse. Get some help is you have issues to deal with -- but don't take it out on innocent people.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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