posted
I'd like to post my opinion on this event, but after reading it I'm too upset about what happened to do so. If anyone has any comments please leave them-I'll respond in the morning.
posted
People are stupid. It's like when that senator died and all those activists booed Sen. Lott and went crazy for Clinton. I hate political funerals.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
OK...I think everyone here knows that I am NOT a Bush fan....but I was watching at that point and I turned to my wife (with a bit of a smirk I must admit) and said " Wow, funny as that may be, that was in incredible poor taste."
I explained to JenniK, and even she agreed with me.
Not that those points aren't at least a little valid, but that was neither the time or the place to slam a President of the United States of America.
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posted
When did this take place? From the way the article puts it, it sounds like this was durring the actual funeral, but I honestly have a hard time believing this. If that was the case, I think that it is in very poor taste.
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posted
I'm torn. It seemed like a group of people were determined to politicize what should have been a time to honor a great civil rights leader and seen in that light it was tacky and inappropriate.
However, I have to wonder if taking this last chance to speak out againt the infringement of civil liberities, the Iraq war, and the treatment of the poor and disenfranchised -- all things she spoke tirelessly against -- was a way to honor her memory. If she had spoken her own eulegy at her funeral, do you think she would have skipped such a golden opportunity to bring her concerns before the attention of not only thousands of people and a worldwide audience, but some of the most powerful men and women in the country?
I have to wonder if she would have wanted it this way.
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quote:I have to wonder if taking this last chance to speak out againt the infringement civil liberities, the Iraq war, and the treatment of the poor and disenfranchised -- all things she spoke tirelessly against -- wasn't the best way to honor her memory.
I don't disagree. But I feel a bit of chagrin that elected officials were doing the ranting. The Clintons and Carter-- what was this but an attempt to bolster Hilary's campaign and slam the Republicans? I don't like assigning motive, but even the article makes it clear that that's how the crowd took it. That's fairly classless.
Somehow, it would be more palatable, more honest, if it were common citizens leveling the charges.
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posted
True. Speeches should have been without hint of personal promotion. But the Clintons have never been known for their subtlety.
However, Carter's comments on the illegal wiretapping of the Kings struck me as entirely appropriate.
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posted
That sounds horrible. I know the President is aware that he is loved by some and hated by others, and he is used to dealing with criticism all the time. But to go to a funeral to pay his respects to someone who had a huge impact on our country, and find himself under attack - that's horrible. It should have been about Mrs. King. Not about President Bush or anyone else.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that was offended by this. My main problems were this:
1) It was her funeral. It was used as a political rally, with people standing to their feet and cheering as the speakers used the opportunity to score political points.
2) President Bush was sitting right there. To give a speech at a funeral and take cheap shots at anyone, (especially anyone present) let alone the President of the United States shows deep disrespect for another human being's dignity and a lack of class. I don't think King would have wanted her death and funeral to be used as a way to try to strip a man of his dignity in front of the world. It always seemed to me that dignity was a central tenet of the Kings' message.
3) Some of the people making the comments were former Presidents of this country. If anyone should show some class and respect, I would think it would be them. Hearing former President Carter's comment made me lose any remaining respect I had for him. That sort of thing was ridiculous when Kayne West said it on stage at a concert--to hear it come from the mouth of a former president at a funeral had to be a new low.
4) Lastly, it was VERY divisive. Rather than bring people together it was designed to drive them apart. Much like conservative talk show hosts try to create an "us vs. them" mentality in their listeners, it seemed like these speakers were trying to cause a sharp division for political purposes.
Well I'm off to work.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
While the article linked doesn't contain the whole of each speech, I will say that it doesn't mention either of the Clintons making comments about either Bush or any administration policies. Those comments came from Rev. Joseph Lowery (whose comments were, I agree, wholly inappropriate), and to a lesser extent, Carter.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:But to go to a funeral to pay his respects to someone who had a huge impact on our country...
I think it's a little naive to say that Bush attended this funeral without any political motives, either. That doesn't justify further politicizing the funeral, but....*shrug*
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posted
Yes Tom, but there's a huge difference between showing up to be seen as supporting King's legacy, and showing up to a funeral to tear down and take political cheapshots at someone unable or unwilling to sink to your level of conduct.
Megan- I agree with you about the Clintons. That actually stood out to me about them, that (according to the article) they refrained. However, I would not say 'to a lesser extent Carter.' He strongly implied/accused President Bush of letting people die in Katrina because they were black. I don't even have words for such an accusation. I don't know what would be worse: if Carter actually believed that or if he was just using it to score political points with black voters.
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posted
I was saying, to a lesser extent than Lowery. If you read Lowery's comment, they're actually a lot more pointed and a lot less relevant.
Edited to add: And why on Earth would Carter be trying to score political points? He's not at all likely to be running for anything, ever again.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: Edited to add: And why on Earth would Carter be trying to score political points? He's not at all likely to be running for anything, ever again.
The fact that he isn't trying to "score points" for himself doesn't necessarily prevent him from doing so for others.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Judging by the responses here, I guess I must be in the minority in not being terribly upset by what I've seen of what went on at Mrs. King's funeral.
I've found it much more offensive when I've gone to funerals and the minister preaching the funeral has used the deceased's death to try to browbeat the attendees into conversion. I've even been to a couple of funerals where the preacher has actually extended an altar call. As far as I'm concerned, that is completely out of line.
I especially think it was apropos that the wiretapping issue was brought up, being that the Kings were wiretapped in the 1960s - although I suppose it would have been truth in advertising to point out that a Democratic attorney general (Bobby Kennedy) was the one to approve those particular wiretaps.
I also have to say that certain media pundits don't have much room to criticize the politicization of the funeral, considering that they didn't hesitate to proceed to use it for their own political purposes, just as they did after the Wellstone funeral.
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posted
Or, possibly, it was that he is personally outraged at what he sees as a moral and ethical lapse on the part of this administration and saw this as a rare opportunity to voice those concerns in a forum where he knew the head of this administration would hear them, and the audience reaction to them.
As this president seems unwilling to appear before a crowd that was not hand-picked to be supportive, I'm not sure I could have passed up the chance either.
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posted
Disgusting. Politics should never be brought up in a funeral. No matter what. It is tasteless, has no style, and is just plain rude to the person that you are there for.
Edited to add: And why on Earth would Carter be trying to score political points? He's not at all likely to be running for anything, ever again.
The fact that he isn't trying to "score points" for himself doesn't necessarily prevent him from doing so for others.
That's silly. Carter has never been a friend to the Clintons in the past, and I seriously doubt he said anything to benefit them. Since he left office Carter has been involved with charity work, like Habitat for Humanity, and involved in United Nations Elections monitoring.
The reason Carter hasn't been seen next to the Bushes and Clinton in recent times is that he disagrees with what is going on in today's government. In BOTH parties. And he says it out loud. He has a #1 best selling book on the shelves right now about the subject, and recently spoke about that book on Jon Stewart's show.
What Carter did was speak the truth about the hypocrisy in the room. He drew a parallel between the heavy handed FBI treatment of the Civil rights movement, in which CSK and her husband were illegally spied upon, and today's NSA scandal. Personally, I enjoyed the discomfort of the personage who does not allow dissent within his eyesight, being center stage to his own roast.
And I suspect Coretta Scott King would have enjoyed it too. She didn't think much of Bush either.
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posted
We don't know what CSK would have thought of her funeral. I mean, except the Bill Clinton's possible plug for Hillary, this was of gathering of her friends allies and speaking passionately about issues she devoted her life speaking about. We don't know what she would have wanted, but I think that she got it, but then again, maybe she thinks that they should have spent the time talking about her love of gardening. It was a non-violent, passionate expression of the political climate from views that haven't been listened to.
If I were king of the world, I'd like to some sort of data surveying the people who were mad about this funeral, along with the people who were mad at Chis Rock's comments about black men not caring about the Oscars, and Howard Dean's comment about how most of the black people at the Republican leadership on conference were working at the hotel where the conference was held.
posted
It's weird reading the posts of people who think that political comments are ok to be made at a funeral. However, I just buried my grandmother a couple months back so it might just be me who thinks that it isn't quite the place for it. There is a line of respect drawn. It was crossed. You don't dredge through s&^% like that in a funeral, you just don't.
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posted
Maybe I need to sign a wavier form, because when I die, and if gallery of political figures find themselves at the podium of my publically televised funeral, I want them speaking to my issues.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
*shrug* Death is the great equalizer. Everyone dies once, and people-especially public figures-get a great big heaping helping of 'free' press when they die. It's unseemly in my opinion for anyone to include such nakedly political speeches and such at a funeral-I rather think funerals should be related specifically to the sort of man or woman who died, their families and friends, and what motivated them in life.
Press-release political statements are quite different, but on the other hand, CSK was not known for her mild agreement with the status quo. It cannot be said that those who spoke politics at her funeral said things she would probably have disagreed with.
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Once again, Irami, you insert racism into an issue which for many people has no racial overtones. People are testy about funerals. They don't like the image of people taking advantage of them-especially if the people taking advantage are taking shots at them. When you're king of the world , by all means please include data about people's reactions to Fred Phelps.
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quote:I rather think funerals should be related specifically to the sort of man or woman who died, their families and friends, and what motivated them in life.
I'm not sure you can do that about Mrs. King without talking about politics.
quote:Once again, Irami, you insert racism into an issue which for many people has no racial overtones.
Of course there were racial overtones. As long as those "many people" don't include Mrs. King, I'm not going to care. Funerals, marriages, and wills are some of the few public displays where the wishes of those involved trump the predilections of those who are watching. In other words, if Mrs. King would have approved the tenor of her funeral, it really doesn't matter that Bao is upset.
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posted
There is quite a difference between talking about past political goals and efforts and making current political statements and jabs, as I know you're well aware.
Obviously racism plays a factor in CSK's funeral-you missed my point. My point is that people often get upset when any point-scoring is done at funerals.
You're guessing at what CSK's will and intent would have been...and it is in that guessing that you're again inserting racism. I think it's clear that CSK had not gone to all of the speech-makers and clearly said, "Say such and such," and people know that.
Maybe she would have wanted it, but I don't think anyone stopped to check. I think if they had, we would've heard about it by now.
posted
It would have been better all around if the Speaker For The Dead could have spoken at her funeral. But that wasn't available.
Instead we must understand Mrs. King's life. She was not a firebrand of political activism. She married into that life out of love for her husband.
The politicians at that time did their best to bring her down, wiretaping her and her husband's most intimate conversations, to be spread as gossip and harm the man she loved.
Infidelity was discovered by these politicians, and used to attempt to blackmail the family. It didn't work, and they managed to work out their relationship.
After Reverend King's death she was pushed into the role of political firebrand as a queen is pushed into a thrown after the death of her husband.
Some tried to make her a figurehead, a puppet to dance to their tunes.
She stopped them, only by reluctantly taking on the mantle of political firebrand herself.
She fought for a day of celebration for her late husband, and for equality, both politically and economically, for her people. She hated war and fought to end those we find ourselves in.
She was a musician. Yet from her meeting of Martin Luther King Jr her life changed, swept up into the whirlwind that was his existance.
It is not fitting, nor is it right, but it is consistant with her life, that at her funeral, dedicated to the mother, the friend, and the musician, that politics overshadows all.
Now I appreciate what President Carter said about the wire tapping. Not as a put down to President Bush, but as a reminder. Her was a great woman being put to rest who suffered under abuses of power like those being resurrected. Before we commit ourselves to defending them, we need to realize to what errors they may lead.
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posted
It is possible that the people who arranged Mrs. King's funeral are more likely to know what she would have wanted than we are.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: As long as those "many people" don't include Mrs. King, I'm not going to care. Funerals, marriages, and wills are some of the few public displays where the wishes of those involved trump the predilections of those who are watching. In other words, if Mrs. King would have approved the tenor of her funeral, it really doesn't matter that Bao is upset.
How exactly to do you propose to ask her if she cares? That's kind of a convenient stance to make for you isn't it? As for me, I rather doubt that she left a statement in her will to the effect that, "If that *$%$#$ Bush has the nerve to show up and pay his respects at my funeral, give him all you've got boys!"
To me, it would be analogous to speakers at the Pope's funeral each taking a turn blasting former President Clinton for his infidelity, abortion stance, and sexual indiscretions in the White House.
Just like with Bush, there is validity to the insults, they are issues of importance to the attendies of the funeral, and were issues of importance to the deceased. However, in my opinion that does NOT make them appropriate, classy, or a good idea for funeral use. It just looks like we're working from different definitions of what human dignity entails Irami. For me, insulting someone to their face who has come to pay his respects to the deceased detracts from the dignity of all involved.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: That's kind of a convenient stance to make for you isn't it? As for me, I rather doubt that she left a statement in her will to the effect that, "If that *$%$#$ Bush has the nerve to show up and pay his respects at my funeral, give him all you've got boys!"
While I can't imagine her being vulgar about it, I can certainly imagine that she had some say into her funeral arrangements. And, as I said, those that are close to her are considerably more likely to know what she would have considered appropriate than we are.
How are they reacting? If her friends and family are outraged, then we have cause to be outraged as well. If not, then it really isn't up to us to pass judgement.
Anyone know? How did the actual mourners respond?
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posted
These were not broad political statements. They were rather pointed insults used to humiliate one attendee (the President) and bring the rest of the crowd at a funeral to its feet.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I get that you think this is inappropriate for a funeral. We will be sure not to do that at yours. If those attending Mrs. King's funeral weren't offended, we can say that it isn't to our taste, but we have no call to be outraged.
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posted
kmbboots- I wish I could agree with your thought, it would make things much simpler. However, I only needed to look as far as the newspaper today, see Cindy Sheehan and be reminded that wishes and ideals of the deceased are not always respected.
And while I agree that she probably not have used profanity, she didn't seem the type of woman that would wish speakers at her funeral to insult the attending President or anyone else at the service. If she was that type of a person, then that would drop my respect for her down a notch.
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posted
I think that in both of those cases it is pretty arrogant of us to think that we have a clearer picture of what the deceased would have wanted that the people who love them do.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Well, as engineers are so boring that we are close to being dead, I can say what dead people want. A coke. And maybe some of those animal crackers, with the frosting and sprinkles.
You're right, we don't know what the deceased would have wanted. But it does seem kinda tacky.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:It would have been better all around if the Speaker For The Dead could have spoken at her funeral.
It is not fitting, nor is it right, but it is consistant with her life, that at her funeral, dedicated to the mother, the friend, and the musician, that politics overshadows all.
I think if someone had done a Speaking, and done a good job of it, people would be a lot more pissed off than they are now. I thought the point of a speaking was to accurately reflect the life of the deceased. If that's the case, then maybe our speakers did indeed capture her life, whatever was intended. At least, drawing from what Dan has said.
Furthermore, I see very little quoted in the article that's insulting to Bush. I see some critique, but the closest thing to a personal attack is reverend Lowery's remarks about "weapons of misdirection." And since HE apparantly actually knew King, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
quote:"The struggle for equal rights is not over," Carter said. "We only have to recall the color of the faces of those in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, those who were most devastated by [Hurricane] Katrina, to know that there are not yet equal opportunities for all Americans."
As far as this goes, I agree with Carter. And I don't think Bush is a racist. Or, at least, I don't think Bush is so abysmally idiotic as to implement some kind of plan whereby only white people would be saved. I just think Bush doesn't particularly care at all about the lower class. And since blacks are dispraportionately likely to be in the lower class...well you can see how that works out. I also suspect that Carter understands this. To me, this statement isn't targeting Bush anymore than it targets any one of us.
To everyone saying this this is so wrong utterly immoral behavior for a funeral, just a word of caution: you weren't there, you don't know what it was like. To start condemning people based on a less-than-one-page, quasi-editorial is very short sighteed.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, I didn't realize that had become so politicized or a big deal on the news. I read some articles major news networks about it this afternoon, and it looks like a bunch of conservative pundits have stated a position similar to mine. So now that the lines of battle on the issue are drawn, again its Republicans vs. Democrats or liberals vs. conservatives and productive discussion has pretty much halted.
I don't think I'll be visiting the thread anymore, but thanks for everyone's feedback Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:It is possible that the people who arranged Mrs. King's funeral are more likely to know what she would have wanted than we are.
I agree. I have not heard anything from the planners or any instructions written by CSK before her death about her funeral, though. I would like to-it would remove for me much of the controversy.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Somehow the shock that some are feeling over political speech at King's funeral is making me think of Malvina Reynold's civil rights song It Isn't Nice.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Bond, who has served as NAACP chairman since 1998, was teaching in Charlottesville Tuesday and told the approximately 300 students of his "History of the Civil Rights Movement" class why he chose not to attend King's funeral that day. According to several students in the class, Bond said he felt King would oppose the views concerning gay rights held by New Birth's senior pastor, Bishop Eddie Long.
In December 2004, Long and members of the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church held a march in favor of a constitutional ban on gay marriage, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
According to second-year college student Emily Frost, who attended the class Tuesday, Bond "said that he chose not to attend the funeral [because] during her life Coretta Scott King very much [pushed] for civil rights not just for African-Americans but also for gays and lesbians."
Frost said Bond explained his absence in terms of his desire to follow King's belief system.
"The church that the service was in has historically marched against gay rights and he felt that she had the choice to promote gay rights, and the church had the choice to go against them, and he was also using his liberty to not attend [something] she would be ashamed of," Frost said.
After the class, Bond discussed his absence in an e-mail to fourth-year College student Carmen Comsti, which gained wide circulation among members of the Queer Student Union. The Cavalier Daily later obtained a copy of the e-mail.
"Mrs. King was a strong supporter of gay and lesbian rights," Bond wrote in the e-mail. "Her husband was a strong believer in helping the poor and preached a theology of contempt for seekers of material goods -- and lived his life that way. The pastor of the church where she was funeralized led an anti-gay march through Atlanta -- sadly, Mrs. King's youngest daughter, an elder in his church, accompanied him. We cannot know what Mrs. King's wishes were for a funeral -- she probably had no choice about church or minister -- but I did have a choice -- and while I have an abiding respect for my former neighbor and friend, I chose not to be in that church."
quote:"Mrs. King was a strong supporter of gay and lesbian rights," Bond wrote in the e-mail. "Her husband was a strong believer in helping the poor and preached a theology of contempt for seekers of material goods -- and lived his life that way. The pastor of the church where she was funeralized led an anti-gay march through Atlanta -- sadly, Mrs. King's youngest daughter, an elder in his church, accompanied him. We cannot know what Mrs. King's wishes were for a funeral -- she probably had no choice about church or minister -- but I did have a choice -- and while I have an abiding respect for my former neighbor and friend, I chose not to be in that church." [Emphasis added."
I pick good heroes. Julian Bond is a class act. Whether I agree or disagree with his decision not to attend the funeral, I appreciate his reasons why. I do love me some Julian Bond. His is one of the few biographies I'd be interested in reading.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:It would have been better all around if the Speaker For The Dead could have spoken at her funeral.
It is not fitting, nor is it right, but it is consistant with her life, that at her funeral, dedicated to the mother, the friend, and the musician, that politics overshadows all.
I think if someone had done a Speaking, and done a good job of it, people would be a lot more pissed off than they are now. I thought the point of a speaking was to accurately reflect the life of the deceased. If that's the case, then maybe our speakers did indeed capture her life, whatever was intended. At least, drawing from what Dan has said.
Furthermore, I see very little quoted in the article that's insulting to Bush. I see some critique, but the closest thing to a personal attack is reverend Lowery's remarks about "weapons of misdirection." And since HE apparantly actually knew King, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
quote:"The struggle for equal rights is not over," Carter said. "We only have to recall the color of the faces of those in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, those who were most devastated by [Hurricane] Katrina, to know that there are not yet equal opportunities for all Americans."
As far as this goes, I agree with Carter. And I don't think Bush is a racist. Or, at least, I don't think Bush is so abysmally idiotic as to implement some kind of plan whereby only white people would be saved. I just think Bush doesn't particularly care at all about the lower class. And since blacks are dispraportionately likely to be in the lower class...well you can see how that works out. I also suspect that Carter understands this. To me, this statement isn't targeting Bush anymore than it targets any one of us.
To everyone saying this this is so wrong utterly immoral behavior for a funeral, just a word of caution: you weren't there, you don't know what it was like. To start condemning people based on a less-than-one-page, quasi-editorial is very short sighteed.
Well said.
This was not your grandmother's funeral. This was the funeral of a great Civil Rights leader. She lived history.
Coretta Scott King chose her life in the spotlight when she married Martin Luther King. She became more than "the mother, the friend, and the musician" when her husband was assassinated. CSK could have retired to the fireside, raised her children, and stepped out of the spotlight. That is not what she chose to do. She chose to be a leader in the Civil Rights movement, first alongside MLK, and then in his place. I believe it is a fitting tribute to her to speak of the issues she cared about with the same passion that she exhibited in her life.
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posted
I watched the thing in real time, and saw it for myself, that you very much.
Also, I lean towards the Dem side of the asile, although not completely, so saying this is divided along party lines is simply wrong.
I think some of it were not shots at Bush, per say....Carter's remarks were spot on, not about what happened but about the divisive nature of the aftermath of Katrina....and some of it was a cheap shot taken at someone who couldn't defend himself without looking sleezy.
If Bush had spoken in defence of himself he would have looked like a cad, completely insensitive, and I think that the people who insulted him knew that, and were perhaps hoping for him to not realize it.
So they took some cheap, divisive shots at him.
Think about this...when is the last time anyone here heard me DEFEND Bush? It has been a while, to be sure. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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This was not your grandmother's funeral. This was the funeral of a great Civil Rights leader. She lived history.
Yes, that is true and they should have stuck to it, her life that is, her history.
<derail>
quote: Think about this...when is the last time anyone here heard me DEFEND Bush?
It has been awhile. I'm just not going to offer that much of an opinion on him. Because personally, I like him. He's raised my paycheck quite a few times since taking office. Granted, I'm still living paycheck to paycheck.
This was not your grandmother's funeral. This was the funeral of a great Civil Rights leader. She lived history.
Yes, that is true and they should have stuck to it, her life that is, her history.
CSK was still an active participant in life, to the end. She was against the Iraqi war, and was well aware of the complexion of the majority of the Katrina Victims shown on the TV. She was a victim of FBI wiretaps. Imagine her take on today's NSA story, after her personal experience with government surveillance.
What was spoken at her funeral WAS what her life was about, and is her history (her-story).
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