Well, the long conversation is pretty hard to read... but that's almost always the case when you are copying long IM conversations into a post. (Truthfully, if you do that and it is pages long, I probably won't read it.) But the rest of the 1st post and the entire 6th post is pretty easy to understand.
I will say, though... contrary to what I said earlier, all the grammar complaints I see on that thread are polite and civil. I don't have a problem with that (politely requesting better grammar, that is).
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Being patient is one thing if someone is making an effort or has not mastered the language. I think we are referring more to those who don't understand the value of trying to use proper English. You have mistakes in your post, as I am sure I do, but it is not difficult to read what you are posting. Some posts are painful to read and I think those are the ones we are talking about.
Also I tend to nitpick mistakes if someone is flaming others. It is just a passive agressive thing. I should stop now.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
You're absolutely right, Shan; my statement was a little extreme. I didn't mean that we should completely brush someone off if they're not totally clear. However, if someone makes no effort to be understood, they shouldn't be surprised if some people don't bother to read what they write.
To be honest, I don't proofread what I write, and I don't expect others to. Since none of this is getting ready to go to press, clear writing is sufficient. But if someone points a problem with my writing, or if I see one myself, I will fix it. I don't think it's too much to ask that people fix any problems in their writing that inhibit clarity.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I just want to know who deleted their *&%^$ post, knocking my thoughtful, beautifully expressed post to the bottom of page two, when it started on the top of page 3.
I've half a mind to cut-n-paste the whole dang thing again on this page.
*grrrr*
Edit to add: at Jon Boy
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I think no matter what, someone should be given a first chance. If they're new, then people should kindly inform them. However if they have been here as long as me, (4 months) then they SHOULD definitely know, and not do so. Only then should they be ignored, and only if they do this continuously, and not totally ignored, but minorly, or partially.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Hmmmm. I am thankful that there have been some people in my life that have been willing to sit quietly with me while I stammer, falter, think slowly, think too quickly and have to re-think and then restate . . . in short, to bear with my jumbled version of expression/communication, and keep sifting until they find the pearl in the sand.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I forget how many people have said this, but I feel the need to agree: I do not often take the time to read through posts when they're incomprehensible. I find that enough when I grade papers - I don't need to spend my free, voluntarily-spent time wading through slogs of bad grammar and sloppy punctuation. If I see something that I can understand, I want to read it more. Finite, end of story.
Is sloppy posting a component of laziness? Probably. Disrespect? I doubt it. We're all here (I hope) because we want to be and because we respect the ideas on which this forum exists. It can't change to accomodate either the lazy or the, well, Nazi.
I have also never seen a grammar correction request post that was rude, unless the original post was rude or inflammatory in some way, or if the original were made in jest, in which case all bets are off.
I suggest everyone get over it and move on. Let's all try to be a bit more constructive in our criticisms and our responses to it.
(Wow, in reading that, I just realized how conciliatory and hand-holdy [which is not a word, I understand] I sound. Oh well.)
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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What can be more fun than to make fun? Making fun, much like making love, requires an intimate idiocy, n'est pas?
Posts: 351 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
That works too, so far as I know. It would only work if you responding to someone else who said they loved they loved something else. This applies to mine also, but not the first one; so far as I know.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shan: Hmmmm. I am thankful that there have been some people in my life that have been willing to sit quietly with me while I stammer, falter, think slowly, think too quickly and have to re-think and then restate . . . in short, to bear with my jumbled version of expression/communication, and keep sifting until they find the pearl in the sand.
Sure, in conversation. We all um and er when it comes to talking. But when writing, you have all the time you want.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Well, KOM -- even with having all the time in the world, there are still those that really are not very competent in the world of clear written discourse.
And, I think part of good listening in this unique world of web-based communications, is giving just as much consideration to the written word . . . which really is substituting from good 'ole down-home porch front evening chats, really . . .
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Shan: Hmmmm. I am thankful that there have been some people in my life that have been willing to sit quietly with me while I stammer, falter, think slowly, think too quickly and have to re-think and then restate . . . in short, to bear with my jumbled version of expression/communication, and keep sifting until they find the pearl in the sand.
Now that's a beautifully expressed post.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I know, as my lovely wife pointed out, except if I edit and correct now, it'll make her post below mine nonsensical, so I decided I'd just let it go.
so, 'contantly' it is.
I missed her post, and I demand that you ignore the woman you've committed to spending the rest of your life loving and obey me, an internet stranger.
quote:Originally posted by Advent: Sort of. But this is the only night I will ever do it. Sorry, but I just wanted to get the word out quickly.
You don't need to get the word out. Everyone sees every thread on the front page. If people aren't posting, it's not because we missed it and just need a reminder to go check it out. More likely it's that it's a thread that's thoroughly uninteresting to everyone who's currently on the board. Just because no one's posting doesn't mean it didn't get read.
And furthermore, I think double posting is similar to running a red light: The only times it's alright is in the middle of the night (when no one's around) or in an emergency.
You triple posted three times yesterday (that I saw). Just something to think about.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
From FlyingCow's link, OSC's take on the issue:
quote:You already heard my feelings about this, and quoted them. Only pinheads get upset about informality online.
We make typos. Sometimes they're funny and we get teased about them. But this is conversation, NOT formal essay writing.
Because the standards are high here people naturally try to look respectable. That's a good thing, but one requiring neither enforcement nor encouragement.
At the same time, people here are (or should be) tolerant of those whose spelling skills are not well-developed, those for whom English is a second language, or those whose native English is a dialect or subset of English with different rules. From what I've seen, that tolerance is pretty well-developed and widespread, and I appreciate it. I'd hate to have anyone think that their lack of mastery of grammar rules disqualified them from taking part as full members of this community.
Especially since I generally find that the people who are most fussy about grammar rules are usually the very ones who have no idea what they're talking about - the ones who have embraced pinheaded, invented "rules" like not ending sentences with prepositions, etc. I've been a copy editor - and a very good one. I see EVERY grammar mistake. And I invariably find them in the writings of people who presume to criticize the grammar of others.
NOBODY speaks or writes without error. You get into a sentence and forgot how you began, so you end it differently (and ungrammatically). So what? In conversation, we forgive things like that all the time. All I was saying was, online postings are treated like a branch of oral conversation - we are informal. We tolerate error as long as sense is clear and the intention is communication.
Let none feel unwelcome because they do not measure up to some arbitrary ruleset on formal language usage! EVERYBODY speaks the grammar of their own dialect PERFECTLY. (And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.)
Please note the part about how grammar requires "neither enforcement nor encouragement", and the distinction between an online conversation and the requirements for formal essay writing.
quote:How do you pronounce "Xaposert"?
Your guess is as good as mine.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Well then, tres, I guess you can keep on preaching to anyone who'll listen about how unimportant good grammar is. Using perfect grammar.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Heh... I wish I could use perfect grammar, but I only wrote three sentences in that last post and I suspect there's mistakes even in that.
For instance, does the comma go inside or outside quotations? I can never remember that, but I think it looks better outside.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I think it's polite to tell someone, once or twice, that their grammar, spelling, or punctuation makes reading their post so difficult that you won't bother to do so.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I will repeat, once again, my comments were directed at Reticulum who, as you can see if you look at the very first post in this thread, is capable of grammatical utterance. Tres, you're just being contrary again, for the fun of it.
If it's not "allowed" to point out that one person's time savings is costing others even more time in mentally deciphering the post, I guess I'll wait to hear from our host or moderators about that.
I agree with OSC that it's a conversation, that the rules are relaxed, and that we ought to be extra patient with people whose skills are weaker, for whom English is a second language, or those who come from a place where the rules of English are different. Does any of that apply in this specific case?
I pointed out to Reticulum that I, personally, quit reading his posts (and those of others) when I can't understand them. I quoted an example where I quit after the 3rd word, in his case. It may not be "friendly" but it is constructive in that I can point to exactly what MY personal reaction was and why. It's not rude to do so. If OSC doesn't like, I'm sure someone from his team will let me know. Reticulum wasn't happy with my criticism. I would never have even mentioned it were it not for him making this thread in which to rant about it. I felt like he lacked a certain perspective on why he might be getting a reaction other than the one he expected.
Patience is great. I think you'll find me extremely silent on most things I find to be simple errors of communication. But if someone asks, or complains...have they not opened the subject up for discussion? If they'd wanted a private space, they have other means of communicating that, right? A BB is inherently FOR discussion. An invitation to discuss the topic is what the act of starting a thread equates to. Even if the first post is a rant.
Finally, mistakes in grammar can and do change the sense of an utterance. If that's not the undergirding of meaning, in the STRUCTURAL sense in which I used the term (i.e., literally), then I suppose you'll have to educate me in the proper use of terminology too, if you feel up to it. Your analogy literally falls apart, though. To call grammar a mere "shell" when it can change absolutely the sense of an utterance is just ridiculous -- as in worthy of ridicule. It is obviously false, and thus undermines the remainder of your argument.
Your take on it leaves sentences without structure, period. And that is not a "shell" issue at all. A boneless human wearing t-shirt (the shell) may well still be human, but recognizing and interacting with that pile of protoplasm would be nigh on impossible for anyone without specialized training and a great deal of preparation.
And my assertion is that if we all have to study "Grammar-sub-reticulum" and "Grammar-sub-person x" and "grammar-sub-person y" in order to have a discussion, then there will never be discussions. There will be long, laborious reading sessions followed by endless attempts at clarification.
In some situations, that is worth the effort. As when we are at the brink of disaster and trying to avert war with some group we barely understand.
Your assertion is that it ALWAYS worth the effort, and that I am wrong to quit reading a post I don't understand. That I should struggle with until I master each person's idiosyncratic form of communication. And that the burden is all on me to make their meaning shine through.
I think you are being unrealistic and contrarian.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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