quote:This is not the first thread this week started in order to call someone out for bad behavior. I'm not entirely comfortable with (what I sincerely hope will not become) the trend.
I hope that it won't become a trend because I hope that they won't be needed after a while.
I think they're needed now.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Well, I found him to be a generally disagreeable, territorial (in the extreme!) and pugnacious individual.
Also, entrenched.
It may not be adequately etiquettible, but there's certainly some argument for my finding a likable target in that situation and aiming for a couple missives.
Posts: 351 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Fallow -- first of all, I have never been sure until now that you really were fallow. My behavior toward you has been a reaction to your posting style under the name clod.
The short answer is that while I don't have any particular animosity toward you (not even knowing who you were), I have had two problems with your posting style. First, you come across as pretty insulting a fair amoung of the time. Second, I also find it annoying that instead of participating in discussions (which are what I think makes this place special), you make tangential (at best) comments all over the place.
It's not that there isn't a place for fluff at Hatrack, even though it's not something that I personally enjoy or generally participate in. But you seem to try to take every thread you post in and turn it into mindless prattle.
I find it distracting, annoying, and disrespectful toward the people trying to have a real conversation.
I hope that's not to harsh. I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't been asked. I know that Beverly liked you even though she couldn't fathom why you insisted on acting like you sometimes do. And since she is much wiser than I, anybody she likes gets automatic benefit of the doubt from me.
I'm off to bed. Any continuation of this will have to wait until tomorrow.
posted
::shrug:: Maybe I've never chanced to walk on your lawn because, though I find you to be extremely frank, I don't find you to be overly territorial or disagreeable
I had to look-up "pugnacious", it's a good word, but I don't think it applies either.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:::shrug:: Maybe I've never chanced to walk on your lawn because, though I find you to be extremely frank, I don't find you to be overly territorial or disagreeable
I had to look-up "pugnacious", it's a good word, but I don't think it applies either.
Hey now!
*delivers a justly deserved kick to LadyDove's junk*
I was just about to head off to bed!
Posts: 351 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:I found [Mr. Porteiro Head] to be a generally disagreeable, territorial (in the extreme!) and pugnacious individual.
There's probably some truth to that. Comments, anyone?
There are some people here who I would say that comment applies to. I would not, however, have put you on that list.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Tres, that is true in a vacuum of information, but after it is lost, it must be earned.
Saying "respect must be earned" is just another way of telling someone you have chosen not to respect them.
Respect is different from Trust. Trust must be earned because it is dangerous to trust the untrustworthy. But there is no danger in respecting someone who doesn't deserve it. At worst, the cost of respecting someone is just having to go through the effort of treating them decently and thinking about them as an equal - I don't think that cost is too great. For that reason, I'm inclined to believe respect should be given, and not withheld from those who can't "earn" it.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Seriously though, I remember when I first started posting. Not even a year ago. So I guess I'm still a newbie. But when I first started posting, I felt intimidated almost by the strong sense of community. I felt like I hadn't earned my place to speak. And unfortunately, I attributed that to the post count number. So I set about running up my post count through fluff threads. Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I did it to the exclusion of posting anything meaningful. And that was a big mistake, obviously. I've come to realize that it truly is the content of people's post that others pay attention to, much more so than the post count number or member number.
So in conclusion, I guess this is just a newbie saying that there is hope for us. But of course, all you wise and wiley veterans already knew that .
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Woah woah woah slow down clod SLOW DOWN! My head has exploded and I'm sending you the bill.
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posted
I respect people at a basic human level, and that's generally something they'd have to actively TRY to lose. It's possible to do so by, say lying, stealing, harming others, being disrepectful themselves...and so on.
There's also respect for their mind, or their skills, or their talent, and that kind of thing IS earned. It's hard work to be clever, or well read, or good at something. And when I see that, I can respect it. To me, that includes communication skills. I don't think it's unwarranted to hold someone's excellent communication skills in high regard when they display them. Are you saying I'd have to give the same measure of respect to someone who hasn't done the hard work to get to that level?
My basic respect for someone as a person might keep me from being truly sarcastic (most of the time -- there have been notable exceptions). My respect for their accomplishments allows me to connect with them on a different level -- admiration.
I'd love to say that I can approach each human being starting from a position of unconditional positive regard and mutual respect. I can't. Ultimately, the best I can say about myself is that I hope to give people the chance to demonstrate their uniqueness and to find something good in them. I usually do okay with this. I have some problems in person, but on a web-board where I don't have to get over my own biases with respect to appearance or hygeine, for example, I can usually wait awhile before forming an opinion of someone.
Unless they tell me their favorite ice cream flavor.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:There have been several people recently who have shown a continuing refusal to conform, to listen, or to think before posting.
I'm with you on listening and thinking before posting. But "conforming"? That seems a little extreme, and, frankly, creativity-stifling. I mean, how many of us actually feel we "conform" in real life, let alone here? I always thought the point was a relaxed place where you could be yourself, as long as you did it with correct spelling and punctuation?
Second, I don't know how I feel about this definition of "noob." How do you count people like me, who've been here for almost five years now but have post counts below 2000? I guess my presence here is kind of sporadic, but I don't feel like it's anything *new.*
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:And if we were going to do that, you'd be on that list.
My sentiments exactly.
quote:Saying "respect must be earned" is just another way of telling someone you have chosen not to respect them.
Saying that you can just choose to respect someone who's done nothing to earn it pays lip service to respect. When you give something away you devalue it. If you don't want to earn respect, you're saying that you're not worthy of it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
While this thread has spawned some interesting comments, I still don't understand why it was created here in the first place.....
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Sorry for the double post, but since that was directed at me and I happen to be here I thought I'd answer.
quote:I'm with you on listening and thinking before posting. But "conforming"? That seems a little extreme, and, frankly, creativity-stifling. I mean, how many of us actually feel we "conform" in real life, let alone here? I always thought the point was a relaxed place where you could be yourself, as long as you did it with correct spelling and punctuation?
I don't mean conform in the sense where everyone is exactly the same. I mean conforming in the sense that everyone conforms in their daily lives. There are certain rules, laws, and cultural mores that every productive citizen tries to follow because they value the community. That's what I meant. If you want to throw a can on the ground and you don't do it, it's not because you're afraid you're gonna get ticketed. It's an easy thing to take a glance around and see if a cop is watching. It's because you don't want to live in a trashy place. That common desire is what keeps people from living for themselves.
-----
I don't consider you a noob, and I can't imagine that that part of your post was directed at me, since you've been here a lot longer. As someone said to Tante, post count doesn't determine newbie status. When you show that you care enough to learn what the standard of behavior is then you're not a newbie. Post count doesn't indicate anything but how much (or little) you talk. It doesn't show whether your posts say anything.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I find it perfectly okay to start a thread addressing a general problem. However, I do not think it is appropriate to start a thread meant to criticize a specific individual, even if an apology of sorts is in some way obscurely being made somewhere in the original post. If there is a specific individual with a specific problem, the problem should be addressed at the time of its occurrence, or it should be addressed in private through email, but not with a dedicated thread open to all. Regarding this situation, I think a general thread could have been started here, but the specific issue should have been dealt with at the forum that it happened at.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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I have a great deal of respect for LadyDove, but if her intention is to apologize for talking about people behind their back, why bring the issue to a different forum? The talking behind the back was done at a different forum, and the public apology belongs there. To bring it here, to me, seems only to further exacerbate the problem.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:When you give something away you devalue it.
I don't agree. If you respect me, I don't think that respect is worth any less if you give it away freely to other people too. It's similar to love. If you love your children, I don't think that love is any less valueable to them if you give it to them unconditionally.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Shan: Y'know -- there are parts of people IRL that I respect greatly, and there are parts that I don't much like.
They seem to come in the same package, without exception.
Part of the task of being in community with people (IMO) is to learn to see the whole person, and to get to know them for all the parts, good and bad.
Hear, hear. Problem being, since this isn't RL, we don't generally get to see all the parts. I don't think anyone here would really say they know me by what I choose to post (mostly fluff). I enjoy reading and participating, but I'm a bit of an introvert IRL and tend to be online as well. Takes a while to get to know me.
When people choose to prominently display their attention-getting, sophomoric sides they're gonna get flack for it, just like they would IRL. But in the six months or so that I've been hanging out here, I have to say it's to the credit of Hatrack that along with that flack I have seen so much giving of the benefit of the doubt and attempting to get to know more of the person.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think I'd personally define n00b as a person who doesn't have enough of a feel of the community in general to have their posting be appropriate to the topic. This is something that can be gained by a lot of time on the forum. An off-topic post or two can be suffered if it's appropriate.
I'm not a newb, but I don't post very often anymore. Not to mention that when I did, it was never in any thread of substance. Whee fluff!!
posted
Ludosti the reason why she's apologizing here is because I am not the only person who was *gossiped* about behind ones back, an act that to me makes me the most paranoid of, aside from being shot and dumped ina river by certain friends and family members which occurs in my dreams.
However she apologized and I am okay.
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quote:I don't agree. If you respect me, I don't think that respect is worth any less if you give it away freely to other people too. It's similar to love. If you love your children, I don't think that love is any less valueable to them if you give it to them unconditionally.
It's not similar to love, for one thing. And your example is spurious, for the second thing.
If you say, "I respect everyone in the world equally" then you're devaluing respect. Everyone has it and did nothing to earn it. What's the point?
Loving your children is a terrible analogy, because of course loving your children unconditionally doesn't devalue love. But if you love the neighbor's kids as much as your own, even thought they light your mailbox on fire and take pictures of your wife in the shower then you're devaluing love.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: [QUOTE] But if you love the neighbor's kids as much as your own, even thought they light your mailbox on fire and take pictures of your wife in the shower then you're devaluing love.
While I'm sure people don't love their neighbour's kids as much as their own very often - even if they did what you suggest, I'm not sure I'd say that loving your neighbour's kids as much as your own children devalues love. It may be considered strange, but I don't think it means that love is less.
Posts: 367 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'm not convinced that there's anything inherently wrong with talking about someone when they aren't present.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I'm disappointed by Hatrack lately, and it's not because of Blayne, although I find him annoying at times. That doesn't matter. I find plenty of people annoying, and it has a lot to do with my moods at the moment.
What I am disappointed by is the lack of standards, lately. Veterans who do try to give the new posters pointers for how to post for readability and to earn respect get blasted by other veterans for not being nice enough or suppressing freedom or not taking the time to try to understand a badly worded post.
I think they're missing the point. Hatrack is a haven among online forums. It was, and I hope it still is or at least will be, a place where you can have a decent conversation on nearly any topic with intelligent and thought-provoking people. It's not like you have to be a MENSA member to fit in, but you are expected to stop and think before you post and to take the time to make sure others can actually understand what you write. I don't mean that every post has to be serious, in fact, part of the charm of Hatrack has been its light-hearted banter and fluff threads. A balance is definitely necessary.
Correcting new users and explaining what makes Hatrack different isn't mean or confining. It's iniating new users into our culture here and letting them know that not all Internet forums are alike. I think when they come to really understand what Hatrack is, they will understand why it is special.
It is not name-calling and making fun or being mean to new users (or even old users who have still not learned to behave) that we need. We don't need a new stricter set of rules that we insist you must follow or you're out of the club. We must teach the new users what is acceptable behavior and WHY it is desirable. I have heard others state that they used to take the time for one-on-one instruction, but I think the forum has grown too large for that. Instead, maybe we need some veterans to come forward in a new thread and explain what makes Hatrack special. Maybe we need to give the new users practical examples of proper forum decorum. Sometimes people, especially younger people, lack the experience to take abstract principles and put them into actual practice. Heck, it's even hard for me sometimes.
We can try to do something.... or we can complain about the state of Hatrack these days while it continues to die, becoming... just another forum.
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