posted
How is it devolving? To say it is devolving when so many new members are joining now really isn't complementary or a good .... something to new members.
IP: Logged |
posted
I meant that I didn't agree with the "maturing" part. I can understand the dying perspective, or at least the idea that Hatrack might be losing some of what made it a special place to many of the older members.
[I went back and edited the earlier post for clarity.]
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blayne, it is not my purpose to be complimentary to new members simply because they're new members. Rather, I want them to be taught, as gently as possible and as firmly as needed, what Hatrack is about, what makes it special, and how to fit in. Fitting in isn't the same as being the same. They don't have to change who they are, but they certainly should learn to be respectful of others and of their own words.
An influx of new members doesn't automatically equal maturing. If those new members were attempting to actually become real members and part of the already formed group--that would be maturing, because new people always change the group they join, and that's good. It's not hard to be part of this group--but many new users aren't even trying.
camus, I'm sorry I misunderstood.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
That still does not mean its in decline, to tell them what they should do in the way you describe is fine but how is it in decline?
IP: Logged |
posted
If it's gradually losing a lot of the qualities that make it special due only to the refusal of new members to learn what those qualities are, how is that not a decline?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:If you say, "I respect everyone in the world equally" then you're devaluing respect. Everyone has it and did nothing to earn it. What's the point?
Do you think the value of respect is that it's something you have and other people don't?
I don't. I think the "point" of respect is knowing that you are being viewed and treated fairly as an equal and worthwhile human being. Respecting other people does not make you respect me any less, and doesn't make me appreciate that respect any less. Why should it?
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's a decline when people feel who have been around for years feel less comfortable here, aren't happy, don't want to discuss their lives. It's declining when less people plan to meet each other, less people become close off the board friends.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:When you give something away you devalue it.
I don't agree. If you respect me, I don't think that respect is worth any less if you give it away freely to other people too. It's similar to love. If you love your children, I don't think that love is any less valueable to them if you give it to them unconditionally.
Suppose your wife were to give away freely to other men the same love that she has for you. The fact that she loves other men doesn't itself change how much she loves you, but it does change how much her love means to you. Likewise, if you respect everyone in the same way regardless of what they do, that most certainly does devalue the meaning of respect, especially to those that are deserving of that respect.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Suppose your wife were to give away freely to other men the same love that she has for you. The fact that she loves other men doesn't itself change how much she loves you
I disagree. An important part of the love between my wife and I is its exclusivity.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think there are several types of respect. I can respect a person's value as a human without respecting their choices and actions.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Suppose your wife were to give away freely to other men the same love that she has for you. The fact that she loves other men doesn't itself change how much she loves you, but it does change how much her love means to you. Likewise, if you respect everyone in the same way regardless of what they do, that most certainly does devalue the meaning of respect, especially to those that are deserving of that respect.
A marriage is exclusive. It can only be between two people, and you can't be married to many people at once. Hence that sort of unique love is not comparable to respect, which is not an exclusive relationship.
That's why I said love of one's child, since you can have multiple children, and loving an additional child does not subtract anything from the value of the love you give to the previous children. Having two children does not mean you love each any less than if you had one. And withholding love from a child that doesn't get good grades, or act nicely, or win at sports, or be the sort of person you want them to be, does not make your love any more valuable to them.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: Changing is a generic word. Everything is changing. Saying Hatrack is changing doesn't really say anything.
If dying is too strong a term for you, fine. But I certainly believe it is in a decline.
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: It's a decline when people feel who have been around for years feel less comfortable here, aren't happy, don't want to discuss their lives. It's declining when less people plan to meet each other, less people become close off the board friends.
I have contemplated - many times over the last six months - leaving and not coming back. But then I think about it and realize that if all the good people leave because they've had enough of the negativity, then Hatrack will sink into the pit it's headed for.
I've noticed many who used to post much more frequently, people who I enjoyed interacting with, people who were fun and interesting and entertaining and intelligent, are seldom here. Some I haven't seen here at all lately. I don't know their reasons for not being here - I only know that I miss them - I miss the warmth and kindness they bring.
Instead, we have more anger, more hostility, more negativity, more racism, more vitriole.
I, personally, am getting tired of it. I don't know that I really want to be here much anymore. But then, I haven't been here as much. My time spent here has been tapering off, and I go entire days without being here. All I know is that I don't look forward to Hatrack anymore, not like I used to. I don't like how I feel when I read some threads. I don't think it's worth it for me to expose myself to so much that's negative.
Am I saying that I'm definitely leaving? Nope. I'm just saying this is how I've felt.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
After reading this thread, I was thinking if I've been doing anything annoying/wrong on the forum. Just want to say that if I ever say something stupid or start getting annoying, I'd appreciate it if someone e-mailed me to let me know.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
On the other board I frequent, many of the oldbies fled to a private forum. They couldn't tolerate what the boards had turned into. Every now and then they return to lament how much better things were in the old days. (I've been to their new forum, and it feels like exactly the same thing to me.)
What they don't seem to understand is that a forum's dynamic will constantly change. With every influx of newbies comes a personality shift. Of course it's not going to be exactly the same as it used to be. Nothing is static. But when the dynamic of a forum changes, it changes for a reason. It would seem that the new dynamic is best suited for the majority of the forum's regulars. If it weren't, how would it last?
When something that you love changes in a way that you don't appreciate, you can do one of two things. You can either abandon it, or you can stick around and use what influence you have to mold it.
I know I'm new, so I'm significantly less invested in this community than a lot of others are. But I really do hope that all of you stick around. I can see why you feel like the general caliber of the threads has decreased, but you're the ones who can change that.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ludosti, I value you too, and I prefer the direct to the passive aggressive, so I thank you for the clarification.
I originally wrote the text as an email to Blayne, but realized that lamenting/whining to someone else about behavior on HR, was also disrespectful and unhelpful to solving my problem with Hatrack. Frankly, it was a reflection of my unwillingness to put in the work to help fix a problem here. I was being lazy by whining, and believed that nothing productive could come of it unless I corrected my error. **********
I love Hatrack. I have some dear friends here. There are voices, learned here, that have become a part of my conscience (BTW, Katharina, you know that I was hearing your voice as I was making this decision).
I do lament the recent tone of the forum. I think that the forum was taken more seriously by the old guard than it is by the new guard. There was a time when the majority of the people cared (maybe too much) about being respected, being part of a cherished community and interacting with others who felt the same way. There was passion and a wide range of interests to keep people involved.
I feel like the new crop treats HR as a playground. A chatroom. I don't see the investment of spirit that brings out the best in a poster. Words and thoughts don't seem to be sacred to them, but disposable like a Happy Meal toy. I see the petty whining and poor spelling and grammar as a symptom of this lack of investment. Sadly, the more the forum is graffitied by this attitude, the less value it seems to have to someone like me.
But as others have said, if you value something, you should be willing to, at times, put more into it than you're getting out of it. For me, this is one of those times.
So, I'm opening myself up to ridicule by pointing out the blemishes.
Please note though, I have been here long enough to see people meet and get married, have children, learn to love themselves.. there have even been a couple of lives saved here. If my hurt at trivializing the power this forum can possess seems overly dramatic to some, that's okay. Sometimes it's worth looking foolish if the cause is worth it.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: I have contemplated - many times over the last six months - leaving and not coming back.
About the time I joined up. Huh.
I for one would miss you if you went away. Won't you stay and show us newbies the right way to do it?
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
I'm not saying I'm leaving. I don't know whether I am or not. I'm just saying that I've thought a lot about it.
The thing is that showing the newbies the right way to do things assumes that a. the newbies want to know b. the newbies care enough to try and c. I (or others) have the energy or stamina to do it.
Personally, I don't. I have enough going on and I have enough to deal with without putting myself in the way of personal attacks on me or putting up with very hateful emails posted to me full of garbage of the worst kind, or threats for that matter. Some people here react in ways that I would consider excessively over the top, and it's directed at me full tilt. I don't know if others have received emails of that sort or if I've been singled out.
In any case, I don't really feel like opening myself up to more of that kind of garbage. Enough.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It was email directly to me, not through the board, and they did not bother to identify themselves as to which Hatracker they were. There was no point in discussing it with PM. It wouldn't have accomplished anything.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know if you're the only one, but I've never gotten any and I've never heard anyone else say they have. Of course, I don't have my email address visible, so they would have to go through the board and be identified as what Hatracker they were.
I'm so sorry to hear that. Like Shan said, it's totally not okay, and knocks my faith in humanity and hatrackers down a little further. :/
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
quid, I just sent you an email -- a friendly one -- you are one of the people who makes Hatrack enjoyable for me, and I'm SO sorry to hear that there are jerks here who would be mean to someone so obviously good.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
quid, I'm so sorry to hear that. I haven't gotten any, but as ElJay noted, that could be because my email addy isn't public.
I can't imagine why anyone would feel the need to treat you hostilely. You're such a fun, yet common sense person. ::shakes head:: This is disappointing. Please don't go.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
First things first. This is not me threatening to go, and I don't want this thread to turn into some kind of popularity contest or a discussion about me. I don't need that, and I'm honestly more than a little uncomfortable being the focus of that sort of thing.
I'd rather that this thread continue to focus on discussing how to improve the joint. Not that I've necessarily been doing that myself, but hey, them's the breaks, right?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: It's a decline when people feel who have been around for years feel less comfortable here, aren't happy, don't want to discuss their lives. It's declining when less people plan to meet each other, less people become close off the board friends.
Although I don't always post a lot, I've been here for years. People feeling that Hatrack used to be better is nothing new. Four years ago, people said that Hatrack was dying. However I do think that there might be some truth to the above quote. I think the change has nothing to do with Hatrack and everything to do with the private forum that many here frequent. When the people who have been here for years get annoyed with Hatrack, they put less effort into fixing it and just go to the other forum.
I used to frequent the other forum and I enjoyed the conversations that it produces. However, I have stopped checking it because the place is not very welcoming. I think that this is the very quality that these old members enjoy about that forum and find irritating about this one. It can get tiring having to constantly deal with new people, especially when you don't have to. Perhaps all that has changed is these people's level of tolerance.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
quid, how could anyone seriously send you hateful e-mails? I deserve them more than you do, and I've never gotten a one.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:A marriage is exclusive. It can only be between two people, and you can't be married to many people at once. Hence that sort of unique love is not comparable to respect, which is not an exclusive relationship.
There have been plenty of societies in which marriages were not necessarily exclusive. It's unfair to say that these people automatically value marriage or family less than our traditionally monogamous society, since as far as I know, no one here has been raised in a society that did not dictate that marriage is an exclusive relationship.
That said, I'm on the "I have a certain respect for people in that they are alive and sentient, but I have a whole different level of respect that can only be earned" boat.
quote:That's why I said love of one's child, since you can have multiple children, and loving an additional child does not subtract anything from the value of the love you give to the previous children. Having two children does not mean you love each any less than if you had one. And withholding love from a child that doesn't get good grades, or act nicely, or win at sports, or be the sort of person you want them to be, does not make your love any more valuable to them.
That's a misinformed opinion. I know a lot of people whose parents withheld love from them as punishment for various things, and even though my friends now KNOW that this was a 'punishment', they still crave that love and acceptance.
My opinion is much the same as Katarain's. Most people respect another person's intrinsic value as a person, but reserve a deeper kind of respect for those people they feel have done things that are worthy of esteem. I respect and value even people I've never met as part of the faceless horde, but I won't respect them individually until I get to know them.
quote:I do lament the recent tone of the forum. I think that the forum was taken more seriously by the old guard than it is by the new guard. There was a time when the majority of the people cared (maybe too much) about being respected, being part of a cherished community and interacting with others who felt the same way. There was passion and a wide range of interests to keep people involved.
This strikes me as right on; I remember when I had just joined I was *extremely* concerned I wouldn't fit in or be respected by other members. Maybe it was because I was only 16 and was generally tired of being dismissed because I was so young (and the Internet is, of course, great because you don't have to reveal your age). I was lucky, because I managed to impress Irami (then Snowden) in my very first thread .
Still, I don't get the feeling that a lot of newer members really have this same approach. Some do -- we still see a lot of introductions, "Hi, this is who I am, etc," which, when properly worded, is indicative of a desire to insinuate themselves into the community. Too often I've noticed posters who just show up, out of the blue, and begin posting *prolifically*. I am *amazed* how much back and forth these threads can go (See Reticulum's recent thread about not being two other people...what was the other poster's name?). To me, this kind of utter crap seems entirely out of character, and when I originally joined I would have been embarassed to put my name to that sort of thing. I think that's changed.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Amanecer, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't agree, obviously. . . I've been a member here for almost two years and a member there for almost a year. I didn't join there sooner than I did because I was afraid I wouldn't be welcome, and it was a couple of months before I really felt like I belonged. But it was almost a year here before I really felt like I belonged. *shrug* I attribute the difference in time to both the size difference and since there is a lot of crossover the fact that I already knew most of the people who post there.
As far as putting less effort into Hatrack because there are other places to go. . . I'm going to repost:
quote:I go through phases with it, personally. Dana referred to it as "taming" newbies once, and sometimes it really feels like that. Sometimes I have the patience and the caring to engage people with the kind of one-on-one attention that they need in order to feel like a part of the community and start to care, in turn, about living up to community expectations. I feel like there's a vast difference between telling someone how they need to behave and explaining to them in a way they can understand why others behave the way they do and why their posts will be more effective if they follow the same guidelines. If I'm not in the right mood, I don't do it, because like JT said, it feels like overstepping my bounds. And if there's a critical mass of people who don't want to do things "the old way" anymore, who am I to be in there insisting that they do, just because I like it? Maybe it is just a natural evolution of the forum, influenced by the different type of readers that are currently attracted to OSC's books.
I do still engage newer posters here when I feel like I can make a difference. But if there's a thread where two or three of them are posting in a way I don't enjoy but obviously enjoying themselves, I'm not going to be a killjoy and tell them the forum has to be to them what it is to me.
The other thing I want to comment on is this line of yours:
quote:When the people who have been here for years get annoyed with Hatrack, they put less effort into fixing it and just go to the other forum.
I'm feeling a little defensive, because I am a member of the other forum you are talking about. Postcount doesn't mean a lot of things that people try to make it mean. It can't show that someone isn't spending time at a forum, because they may be lurking and not posting, but it can show when someone is. Because otherwise they couldn't be posting, obviously. When I registered at the other forum I had less than 2000 posts here. In the 10 months since, I've made over 3600 additional posts here, as well as just under 3000 posts there. For me, at least, it's an in addition too, not instead of. There are a lot of other people who are also active posters at two or more forums. I resent the statement that my time spent there reduces Hatrack. I don't think it does. If I was only a member here, I don't think I would have made an additional 3000 posts here last year.
Different places serve different purposes. I honestly believe that if I hadn't registered at sake, I would still go through phases about being willing to invest time in newbies, and I would still feel like a whole bunch of them at once was overwhelming. The only difference is that if I reduced my presense here because of it I would be going to an unrelated place instead of one that has many of the same people. But, as my burgeoning postcount shows, I haven't reduced my presense anywhere. I'm talkative, and I'm egocentric and think everyone should be graced with the pleasure of getting to listen to me, so you can't get me to shut up. And yeah, I occasionally gripe about Hatrack, or about specific people on Hatrack. I also occasionally gripe about my job, members of my group of friends, and my family. (Don't be trying to figure out which one I'm talking about, I'm talking about ALL of you!) Doesn't mean I don't love this place, doesn't mean I don't invest in it.
I'm sorry you didn't feel welcomed at sake. I noticed when you started posting, and I noticed when you left. I know we interacted at least once or twice. If I did anything specifically to make you feel uncomfortable, I apologize for that. But I do not apologize for being a member there, or enjoying the community, or feeling that it fills a different need than Hatrack. For me, it does. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm going to jump in on the quid getting hate mail= bad bandwagon. I can't believe anyone would do something like that.
And quid, I don't think everyone's saying this simply because it's you (although you are one of my favorite members here, and one of the nicest people I know). The idea that anyone here need ever worry that what they say will cause them to receive hate emails is despicable and makes me incredibly angry.
I hope that everyone will join in and condemn it here to drive home the point that it will never be acceptable to send anyone here hate email, no matter how the forum changes.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:The idea that anyone here need ever worry that what they say will cause them to receive hate emails is despicable and makes me incredibly angry.
I hope that everyone will join in and condemn it here to drive home the point that it will never be acceptable to send anyone here hate email, no matter how the forum changes.
blacwolve, I agree with what you said... To a point.
That point is that it should never be acceptable to post here here that is hateful, either.
That, to me, is a bigger problem.
With hate email, it ends with me. Or katharina or anyone else who's received it. It has a limited audience, so unless I say something and divulge the contents, there's no one to think "Oh, that's normal behavior then. I think I'll send a hate email."
When hateful posts are posted here - in public and for everyone to see - and no one decries them, they're then more likely to be seen as acceptable. Hatemongering then has the opportunity to become the norm. Ten or twenty people jump on the bandwagon insulting someone or some group of people for no reason other than that person disagreed with them or was perceived to disagree with them or is different from them or for some other silly reason.
Edited for clarity of thought. Not that I have much, just hopefully a smidge more than before.
posted
ElJay, you did absolutely nothing to make me feel uncomfortable. In fact, I think you specifically welcomed me when I came. The reason I found it unwelcoming is that many people there consider it a place where they can relax with people they already know and like. Multiple statements were made about not linking to it via Hatrack so as to avoid attracting too many people. Going there felt kind of like crashing a private party. There is nothing wrong with that kind of environment. In fact, I think there's something wonderful about such an intimate place. However I think that part of that intimacy comes from its exclusiveness. If everybody on Hatrack went there, the place would lose a lot of what makes it unique. I am not trying to criticize because I see nothing wrong with this. I’m just trying to explain my reaction to it since it has come up.
quote: I honestly believe that if I hadn't registered at sake, I would still go through phases about being willing to invest time in newbies, and I would still feel like a whole bunch of them at once was overwhelming. The only difference is that if I reduced my presense here because of it I would be going to an unrelated place instead of one that has many of the same people. But, as my burgeoning postcount shows, I haven't reduced my presense anywhere.
I believe that this is true for you and many others at sake. However, I have noticed a growing trend of old members who complain about Hatrack and claim that it is losing what made it special. I think that many of these are people who have started to post less on Hatrack and more on sake. It is my own opinion that Hatrack has lost nothing and is still a place that attracts thoughtful people and interesting discussions. I don’t even agree that Hatrack is attracting a new crowd. I joined when I was around 15, and I was far from the only young and immature person here when I joined. In fact, I don’t use the screen name I originally joined with because many of my initial posts were so immature. I suspect that the increase in complaints comes from people finding something that they like better than Hatrack and feeling frustrated with Hatrack for not being something that it never was, Sake. I am not trying to attack sake or any of its members. If people actually do leave Hatrack for Sake, that is their decision to make. However, I do not believe that it has anything to with Hatrack becoming a worse place.
And quidscribis, I'm sorry to hear that you recieved hate mail. I hope that you do not leave. I enjoy your presence here and Hatrack would be worse off without you.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
I suggest hiding your email. People can still get in touch with you, but they do have to go through the board and are identifiable. That won't stop anyone who wants to exchange friendly but might slow down the losers.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for the clarification, Amanecer. That helps a lot. I kinda disagree with you. . . I think that the people who complain are the ones who are still here and are trying to do something about it. The ones who have decided that Hatrack is no longer a place where they can be comfortable for the most part either don't come here at all any more or come here very seldom and are careful not to complain. But I don't think that's something that can be objectively answered, so it's probably just two different viewpoints of the same thing. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm gald that was helpful. I was afraid I came off as anti-Sake, which was not my intent. And I could be very wrong in my oberservations. This is merely the way that it appears to me. Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I deserve them more than you do, and I've never gotten a one.
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And yeah, I occasionally gripe about Hatrack, or about specific people on Hatrack. I also occasionally gripe about my job, members of my group of friends, and my family. (Don't be trying to figure out which one I'm talking about, I'm talking about ALL of you!) Doesn't mean I don't love this place, doesn't mean I don't invest in it. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I hope that you do not leave. I enjoy your presence here and Hatrack would be worse off without you.
