quote:America is gradually becoming a service economy, that is something to worry about.
Why?
quote:Pension plans are being scrapped and replaced with 401 ks which may not be as reliable.
While it's true that pension plans are being scrapped and replaced with 401ks, why do you say the latter are less reliable? Pensions were drastically back-loaded, which meant that someone who had to change jobs early too often didn't have an adequate retirement.
quote:The government is even considering increasing interest rates on student loans and cutting funding for college students.
Why is it wrong to increase rates? Interest rates change over time. Rates fell drastically over the last 8 years. Should rates only be a ratchet, going down but never up?
Even the rate increases being proposed are lower than several historical highs.
quote:It will only get worse unless people DO something constructive about it, such as take some control over our government and our tax dollars.
I'm curious as to what opportunities you think used to be available that aren't any more? You've identified pensions and manufacturing jobs, but haven't made it clear why neither 401ks nor the large numbers of new white-collar jobs aren't adequate replacements.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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It is something to worry about because those service jobs mostly- Do not pay enough Have rather lousy working conditions. Highly stressful. And let's face it, how are people supposed to afford high morgages or expensive cars or Gap shirts on that sort of salary. Seriously, these guys by shipping high paying jobs overseas to save a few extra dollars are really not thinking about the future. How can people afford their products on 8 dollars an hour? How can we compete with the rest of the world if only a handful of people can afford college educations because the debt they incure after school is over is just too high for them to pay? Just looking at the INTEREST rates from my student loans makes me want to pass out. How are people who come from difficult circumstances (parents that didn't go to college or finish it, parents that don't have enough money to send their kids to college, working class families) supposed to afford to get an education so they can work their way up to these large numbers of white collar jobs and use their minds instead of rusting away not getting anywhere on less than 8 dollars an hour? If this keeps up, in the long run there might not even be a middle class to aspire to, only a wide gulf betwen the haves and have nots and when has that every done society any good? We need to make it easier for people who have the will and the intelligence to get ahead. I'm not talking about hand-outs, but a reasonable leg up.
And I think the minimum wage should be increased because not just teenagers bag groveries or check out food, but all sorts of people trying to support themselves and their families.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'm not entirely sure how those three things factor in to an apocalyptic end to the American Dream, Synesthesia.
Because this is how it starts. It starts with companies that care more about making money NOW than they do about society. Same with individuals caring more about themselves and owning the latest gadget than the whole. It starts out with a simple decline, a weakening of the system and the next thing you know, it all collapses. This needs to be prevented.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If a person really does want to go to college, then they will find a way. They will find jobs where they work 40 hours a week. They will take two classes at a time if they have to because they cannot take a full load of classes and work enough to earn the money to pay for it. I'm tired of people complaining that college is too expensive, when in reality they themselves are not willing to work hard enough for it.
You chose a career that you would enjoy but doesn't pay well. You know it wouldn't pay well, and you still chose it. Why are you complaining about it now? Or are you implying that it should pay well? That all jobs in every industry should pay an amount that allow people to live on it? Life doesn't work that way.
If your lifestyle is too expensive, then cut back on stuff. Get a roommate. Buy cheaper food. Try getting a second job instead of complaining about how unfair society is and how jobs are moving abroad, etc. Face it, we all live in the same society. If people can meet the challenges of living in this society, then obviously you can too.
Posts: 155 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:It is something to worry about because those service jobs mostly- Do not pay enough Have rather lousy working conditions. Highly stressful.
You are ignoring the much higher-skilled service jobs that now exist in almost entirely new industries.
quote:And let's face it, how are people supposed to afford high morgages or expensive cars or Gap shirts on that sort of salary.
They're not. High mortgages and expensive cars and Gap shirts aren't essential elements of the American dream.
quote:Seriously, these guys by shipping high paying jobs overseas to save a few extra dollars are really not thinking about the future. How can people afford their products on 8 dollars an hour?
A lot more people can afford the products when resources - including labor - are allocated efficiently.
quote:How can we compete with the rest of the world if only a handful of people can afford college educations because the debt they incure after school is over is just too high for them to pay?
It's true that if only a handful of people can afford college we will not compete well. You haven't come close to demonstrating this.
quote:Just looking at the INTEREST rates from my student loans makes me want to pass out.
Student loans could be consolidated at less than 5% for 20 years at several points over the last 10 years.
quote:If this keeps up, in the long run there might not even be a middle class to aspire to,
Again, you're just saying that this is the case. There's a huge middle class, and the middle class has more luxeries than the middle class of only a generation ago.
quote: only a wide gulf betwen the haves and have nots and when has that every done society any good? We need to make it easier for people who have the will and the intelligence to get ahead. I'm not talking about hand-outs, but a reasonable leg up.
What leg up do you suggest? I managed to start a business with no capital, based on two summers of working 80-110 hour weeks (yes, 110 out of 168). And the business was based on self-taught skills, not my college degree (although the degree helped in other ways).
A college loan is a leg up. State-subsidized college tuition is a leg up. Even at private colleges most students don't actually pay the cost of their education.
Community colleges are even better deals, and in many states associate degrees with a certain GPA guarantee acceptance into the state system for a bachelor's degree.
I'm grateful for all these legs up, and support efforts to make such legs up work better. It does take hard work to get ahead. And some people who work hard and make good financial decisions still get the financial shaft. But it is very possible to get ahead, and the opportunity is available to more than a few people.
The people I really feel bad about are those who have gotten through high school without the basic skills needed to take advantage of these legs up. Whether through the fault of themselves, society, or both, they really are at a lifetime disadvantage.
quote:It starts out with a simple decline, a weakening of the system and the next thing you know, it all collapses.
But you still haven't demonstrated that it's weakened.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I am not complaining specifically about me, as I am on my way up... or at least sideways. I'm thinking about the whole picture, not just me, but all of society and the best way to make it and this country great and then extend to the whole world. i'm idealistic, but we need idealists.
College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable. It's exhausting to work full time and go to school full time. Some folks get so tired they just burn out from the stress and frustration. Grants, reasonable loans and programs like this are better for the country in the long run. It allows smart people who normally wouldn't even think of going to college to be on an even playing field. Yes, I know life is tough. Of course it's tough. But why shouldn't the burden be lifted off of people just a bit? Just enough to keep them from getting discouraged? How is it fair that only a handful of people are allowed to get benefits and college coaching and all of these advantages from birth when a person who is just as smart, if not smarter gets denied this just for being born in the same place? To some, it seems childish, but I think this dog-eat dog concept has to die. This isn't what created progress. Working together, cooperation. That's what makes a society better. I'm a dreamer. But dreamers have a purpose too. I just think it's time for things to change and evolve for the better while at the same time acknowledging how far we have come and why.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable.
I agree, actually, that it's unreasonable to expect the majority of your middle-class workforce to attend four years of college, and I think the country is worse off for having turned it into a form of expensive high school. But that's about where we part ways. For example....
quote:I think this dog-eat dog concept has to die. This isn't what created progress. Working together, cooperation. That's what makes a society better.
I agree that cooperation is what makes a society better. But I think people cooperate in the face of a dog-eat-dog world; a world in which people did not receive a benefit from cooperation would be a world without functional society.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I was being a bit sarcastic with that gap line. I just don't see the logic in eliminating a ton of jobs. Perhaps because I know very little about business and am looking at things from the perspective of an idealist with very slight socialistic leanings. From the other perspective, the one of businesses and companies and colleges, it could be entirelly different. It's hard to show it, but this is how it starts. Subtle, next thing you know the homelessness rate increases, more people end up on welfare and slip below the radar. It happens constantly. It's been happening for ages. As much needs to be done to prevent this from happening, but each time there are things like Americorps and the like they get scaled back and I am against it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable. It's exhausting to work full time and go to school full time.
But you don't have to do that - it's possible to go to college part time.
quote:But why shouldn't the burden be lifted off of people just a bit? Just enough to keep them from getting discouraged?
I think some of the burden and the discouragement comes from an unrealistic standard of living. Most people at my school have cell phones. Few people share bedrooms when living off campus now. Just 15 years ago most people had a roomate (not an apartment-mate) if they lived off campus. That change alone halved the cost of living. I paid 125 a month for my apartment in 1991-92, which even adjusting for inflation is less than half what most people pay now here.
quote:How is it fair that only a handful of people are allowed to get benefits and college coaching and all of these advantages from birth when a person who is just as smart, if not smarter gets denied this just for being born in the same place?
The choice isn't giving that to all or some. It's giving it to all or none. How would denying people the opportunity to either take advantage of their good fortune or to prioritize their expenses and make sacrifices to afford such programs for their children.
Also, it's not just a handful who have such things.
quote:Working together, cooperation. That's what makes a society better.
I agree. But I see the bad financial choices people make (not speaking of you here) as things that are anti-cooperation. Strictly comparing myself to people with the same basic education, starting income, etc. as I have, I am well ahead of most of them. Some of this was because of good fortune. But just as much or more was because of both hard work and better financial planning.
Most people I know cashed out their 401ks three or four times in their twenties when they changed jobs. I didn't. They had nicer cars, nicer houses, nicer apartments. I had money earning money for me. Their short term advantage has been overtaken in less than 10 years. I was able to buy a house and take advantage of the housing boom. They had to pay higher rent during that same boom because they didn't save.
I know there are people who haven't had 401ks to cash out. I'm not talking about them. Nor am I talking about you. But I've seen enough people work their tails off to get through college in 6 years without loans and enough other people who squandered their most powerful financial decade acquiring stuff, to know that people's choices generally matter. A lot.
posted
If you're reasonably intelligent and hard-working, you can go to college in the US. Period. Maybe it won't be your first choice or a flashy big-name school, and maybe you'll need to go part-time and work a job as you go, but there is way, way too much need-based assistance out there for people to be unable to go to SOME college simply because of the cost.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I disagree. Ideas do very little. People who act on their ideas do a great deal. You have identified several issues that concern you: child care, affordable life styles, the horrible standard of living in other countries, and many more. I'm curious what you personally do to improve these situations. Do you offer to take care for children when you're not working? Do you work with Habitat for Humanity to increase the affordability of a middle class life style? Do you donate to charities like Christian Children's Fund to help improve the standard of living in other countries? There are TONS of ways to help out, even if you have little or no money. If you want things to change don't wait for the government to change or anybody else. Go out there and create change.
[Edited to add: Here is a directory of some charities. There are plenty more than what's listed here, but this could help give you ideas. And don't feel like you have to give money. Almost all of these places could use volunteers.]
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable. It's exhausting to work full time and go to school full time. Some folks get so tired they just burn out from the stress and frustration.
I worked part-time and went to school full-time, and with the help of some Pell grants, I was able to make it through. I got no money from my parents and very little from scholarships. And I graduated with only $4000 in student loans—a sum that could have been significantly smaller if I had managed my finances a little better and hadn't bought two cars. Putting yourself through college is not impossible.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ideas help ebcause they create the conditions for change... The worse part is I have to take care of myself first and rise myself up before I can help people more. A friend of mine hammered this into my head saying, "It's not your fault that poverty exists." But I want to DO more... a lot more to change those conditions and I hate not being in that position yet... I wish I wasn't so social phobic and could take a job as a social worker or something... And I need to do more volunteer work too.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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What you are saying is not the death of the American Dream. Rather, it's just confirming that sacrifices are required to achieve any dream, American or not. Working hard will not by itself get you EVERYTHING (big house, family, job you enjoy, lots of free time, all the stuff you are used to, financial security, etc.) Instead it will only get you some of these. Which you choose is up to you and how well you plan.
quote:The worse part is I have to take care of myself first and rise myself up before I can help people more. A friend of mine hammered this into my head saying, "It's not your fault that poverty exists." But I want to DO more... a lot more to change those conditions and I hate not being in that position yet...
This isn't true. It's easily possible to both take care of yourself and help others simultaneously. Even if your job is bagging orders at McDonalds, doing it with a smile, helping your other employees, etc. will make a difference for others. It won't cure poverty, but I can guarantee you won't cure poverty no matter how successful you are.
In fact, typically helping others will make you a better employee, which will in turn help you too.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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What are you doing to raise yourself up? You have a degree. That proves that you can work hard and succeed at something, which is a valuable thing on a resume no matter what you ended up majoring in. I'm majoring in Theatre, for crying out loud. If I had to I could still go into corporate communications because I have a degree and writing skills, most importantly writing skills. You're an English major, right? Tons of people have gotten degrees in English and done things only remotely English-related with their lives. If you have to, gain some skills. The temp agency I worked for had online classes for things to improve basic data-entry and other skills -- ask your agency if they have anything similar. Get in touch with a local ESL program and see if you can learn Spanish. It doesn't always have to cost money, but you can try to scrape enough together for one or two skill-building classes at a local community college -- programming, public speaking, bookkeeping, medical transcription -- you'd be surprised what is available if you look for it.
Getting out there and growing in knowledge -- *that* is the American dream.
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Well, in all fairness, I think it's safe to say that "growing in knowledge" has never been the American Dream, but probably should be. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I still want to master Japanese... Maybe if I had a Japanese boyfriend.. *eyes some certain guy* That aside, I am trying to get over this stupid social phobia. It's such a pain in the butt. I can't believe I got to get stuck with this thing, being scared out of my brains of people all the time. It's why I was stuck working at s and s for so long... At the stupormarket (which uses low lights and dull music to hynotise people into buying a bunch of stuff they didn't put on their list) Because I was scared of offices and office people. but then I got a rabbit, started working temp jobs to gain more skills to get a permanent job and learned that offices are not so bad at all... Nothing to be scared of and the extra money sure is nice...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense.
Except it does. Because they wouldn't be DOING that work if $50/month -- or the equivalent -- weren't worth it to them. In many cases, that's an average salary in the relevant countries.
Should American companies opt to be extra-generous with foreign labor?
My answer to that is yes they should. Those who have abundance should support those who do not. Especially when those who do not are working to improve their situation. It isn't like the foreign factory workers are just looking for a handout. They are working and providing a service that makes their employers rich. They should be rewarded for that. There is plenty of room in the profit margin of most of those products (my wife has worked in retail and the average markup on clothing was in the 200-300% range) to pay a higher wage.
As far as the American Dream being attainable, I am Canadian and I feel I have attained the equivalent. I am 28 and have owned a home for nearly 3 years. I have two children and my wife has been a stay at home mother for most of the last 5 years. We have made sacrifices in our standard of living to get here. We have one small car with no options, one computer, one TV (no cable), and we just got our first cell phone a few months ago. As we have sacrificed some luxuries we have learned how to save money. We have been able to take a tropical vacation, we have a good sized collection of DVDs and CDs (though most of the CDs were bought by me before our wedding).
It really does boil down to defining what are actually needs. This can be really hard to do as there is so much pressure from the media. Not only the media but also those around us who make all of the extravagent purchases (whether they can truly afford them or not). I struggle with the fact that people who I know are less financially secure than I am are out there buying things that I would really like to have. I just can't justify putting those kinds of purchases (in my case, mostly electronics and musical instruments) ahead of getting out of debt.
The simplest advice I have is to live within your means. Don't go into debt for anything other than education, a home, and one reliable vehicle (and that only if public transportation is really not an option).
Posts: 1336 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:You chose a career that you would enjoy but doesn't pay well. You know it wouldn't pay well, and you still chose it. Why are you complaining about it now? Or are you implying that it should pay well? That all jobs in every industry should pay an amount that allow people to live on it? Life doesn't work that way.
All right, can we put a stop to this particular argument now? It doesn't fly. On the website of a science fiction author, it particularly shouldn't fly.
Not everyone has the desire, interest, and talent to be an MBA, and following this line of reasoning would result in a glut of business majors, most of them miserable people who would hate their work. Anyone familiar with Kant's categorical imperative?
The last MBA I met was working for a service wage in a toy store.
If you take up something you hate just because it will supposedly be more practical somewhere up the line, the result is inefficiency and burnout.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Very true... Or you could be social phobic like me and just no good at smoozing and all the stuff you need to do if you are a CEO or whatever... I'm just not good at that stuff!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:All right, can we put a stop to this particular argument now? It doesn't fly. On the website of a science fiction author, it particularly shouldn't fly.
This is the perfect place for it to fly. Because almost all successful writers ("successful" refering only to if they can make a living at it, even though I know there are other measures of success) had to make serious sacrifices before getting to the point where writing alone paid the bills.
quote:If you take up something you hate just because it will supposedly be more practical somewhere up the line, the result is inefficiency and burnout.
I haven't seen anyone advocate taking up something you hate.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I used to think of myself as pretty shy -- I'd much rather be in a corner with a book than in the middle of things. I changed a lot after taking, of all things, an acting class. It made me much more self- confident and self-aware and more willing to put myself out there and deal with other people. When I learned about stage management they told me that if I wasn't completely self-assured and confident in what I was doing, than I needed to *act* like it. So I do -- I have to facilitate conversation between department heads, teachers, students, professionals, designers, actors, etc...the thought that I'd be doing this now might have given a younger me a stroke, but I absolutely love what I'm doing.
You can't live in a bubble forever -- people will always be there. It's hard and frustrating and you probably won't like it for quite a while, but when it clicks, it'll be a huge triumph. You'll walk and talk differently, and people will notice the positive change in you. But you have to make that move.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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