posted
Maybe there are lots of female captains who are not starship captains--maybe they often serve in some other capacity.
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posted
Because Star Trek is a family film. When the captain goes down to battle the mutant tribbles on Zoricon Omega 3, he always loses his shirt. Can't do that with a female captain.
Or maybe it's a chauvinistic leadership vs management issue Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Because the men want to be captains and the females want to be admirals? Therefore, the men spend 20 years as starship captain, while women spend 10. That's the only explanation for why Janeway made it to admiral and Picard's still a captain. Because she wanted that promotion and he doesn't.
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posted
I don't know, but I think out of TNG, DS9 and Voyager, Janeway was by far the worst captain. And by that I mean Picard and Sisko were great, and she was... ugh... :tries to block bad memories:
That doesn't explain anything, of course... Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Because there are significantly more freaky green alien chicks out there than there are freaky green alien studs.
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posted
I haven't a clue. I was just suggesting a reason why it might happen. Not the "real" reason (i.e. why the writers made it that way), but the reason from the perspective of the reality inside the show.
Maybe the women want more power? Maybe the men want less bureaucracy and more adventure?
Or maybe we just happen to have seen a subset of the Star Trek universe that has more male captains and more female admirals than is typical in the rest of the fleet.
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posted
I think the real reason it was written that way was that they wanted male captains/leaders/adventurers, but they wanted to appear more PC so they made a lot of the admirals female. The admirals are more powerful than the captains in the universe, but the captains are definitely more important than the admirals in the storytelling.
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posted
What about the ratio of male redshirts to female redshirts?
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Janeway was an okay captain and made Admiral because she did first contact with more species then James T Kirk did, 9 years stuck in the Delta Quadrant surviving and doing one heroic task after another is worth the promotion.
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I think Porter hit the nail on the head. They wanted to create captains in the vein of Kirk. (Janeway, I think, was a successful female version. But I know others disagreed.) But, in general, they followed the Kirk formula, albeit with differing temperments. But for diversity, they used many women (and minorities, for that matter) as Admirals, etc.
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quote:They wanted to create captains in the vein of Kirk.
I didn't see much similarity between Kirk and Picard or Sisko. I think it would be better to say that Star Trek as a whole was modeled after the Age of Exploration.
It is an attempt to capture the romantic fantasy of sailing the high seas and "discovering" new lands and cultures while avoiding the imperial tragedies of our past. As a result all of the captains are modeled in some respect on the great explorers of the age: Cook, Lewis, Franklin, Shackelford perhaps even Columbus. In our history there are lots of male models for the great adventurer, leader, scientist but there are no such women in our history. I think that this makes it very hard for writers and actors to make a female Starship Captain that is believable in the role.
I think female admirals were easier because they only made very brief appearances on the show so their characters didn't need to be fully developed.
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posted
I was just thinking about all the female Star Trek main characters and the only one I can think of who really succeeds in being an adventurer/explorer is Jadzia Dax. Tasha Yar and Kira Nerys are successful as warriors but never really as explorers. Janeway was a reasonably successful leader but her character never was convincing as an explorer.
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posted
I have a theory that they promoted Janeway from captain to admiral so quicky just to get her off the bridge of a ship!
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posted
I have a theory that they promoted Janeway from captain to admiral so quicky just to get her off the bridge of a ship!
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posted
She managed to get from the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha in less than a decade, I'd say that was a worthy accomplishment. And she brought back a wealth of advances, technology from the future, the Delta Flyer, and tons of Borg info.
And there were a ton of male admirals. I can't remember all their names, but I'd say there was at least an equal ratio of female to male admirals in TNG. Though in DS9 the only one that really comes to mind is Admiral Ross, or the Admiral that tried to form a coup on Earth during the Changeling crisis.
And there were a bunch of female Captains. There was the female captain that Sisko and the Defiant talked to who actually died like a decade ago but because of some energy field her transmission was bounced through time. There was Captain Laforge of the Hera, Geordi's mother. Dr. Crusher became a Captain in "All Good Things"
Commander Dax regularly captained the Defiant when Worf and Sisko weren't. The real question is why weren't there more female captains on ALIEN ships. I never saw a female Klingon captain, or a female Cardassian captain, or for that matter a female Cardassian soldier. The only female I saw at all was Seska on Voyager and Zeeall who was Dukat's daughter.
The Romulans were the only ones to ever let women really have positions of power. And it's at this point that I realize I watched way too much Star Trek as a kid...
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: She managed to get from the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha in less than a decade, I'd say that was a worthy accomplishment. And she brought back a wealth of advances, technology from the future, the Delta Flyer, and tons of Borg info.
I can argue that very little of that was due to her command abilities. A lot of it was just the result of fortunate circumstances and a good crew. The one event that made me lose the most respect for Janeway was in the episode when they were traveling through that long stretch of space with no visible stars or planets. The crew's morale was low, so what does the great leader Captain Janeway do? She locks herself in her ready-room until her first officer coaxes her out.
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posted
I disagree with the basic assumptions here. As lyrhawn pointed out, there are quite a few female captains who appear on the show. I would even venture to say that the ratio of female to male captains is relatively close.
Also lyrhawn, Yar's daughter was the "commander" ie captain of a romulan ship, and the captain of the flagship no-less. All in all, quite a few female captains.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: [QUOTE] I think that this makes it very hard for writers and actors to make a female Starship Captain that is believable in the role.
Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
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posted
Considering she was dealing with a green crew lost 70 thousand lightyears from home, AND ingetrated a crew of known rebellious traitors into a system of rules and regs that they were diametrically opposed to, I'd say she did a pretty good job.
Not to mention the overwhelming guilt she felt when she destroyed the Caretaker's station. She has to make a lot of decisions with little to no real backup, no contact from Starfleet, no help on the way, and only a large group of people questioning her orders and looking to her to get them home alive and in one piece.
None of the other captains had to deal with that kind of strain and stress, thus, I'd say she did a pretty good job. I'd say she especially did a good job dealing with the Borg and Species 8472. She got one tiny ship through a huge mess and with few casualties.
On the whole, as far as the alien species go, I commend the Romulans the most on gender equality. And in general on the makeup of their culture and military. They have women senators, women commanders, women in the intelligence community. The Klingon High Council has no women, or women in charge of ships, with the possible exception of the Duras sisters. And Vulcan women were just bitchy.
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posted
Speaking of the woman-woman love, what was the hullabaloo about Jadzia kissing that woman who was her lover when she was Curzon? Was it really the first same-sex dealie on primetime? I doubt it...but I remember reading about it somewhere.
quote:Originally posted by pH: Speaking of the woman-woman love, what was the hullabaloo about Jadzia kissing that woman who was her lover when she was Curzon? Was it really the first same-sex dealie on primetime? I doubt it...but I remember reading about it somewhere.
-pH
Was DS9 even considered prime time since it was syndicated?
I got the impression in that episode that it was just done for ratings.
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quote:She has to make a lot of decisions with little to no real backup, no contact from Starfleet, no help on the way, and only a large group of people questioning her orders and looking to her to get them home alive and in one piece.
This sounds startingly like Captain James Holden, of 2350 fame.
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posted
I remember a fair share of female captains on various star trek shows. They were always just like one or maybe two episode characters.
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quote:The Romulans were the only ones to ever let women really have positions of power.
The Klingons do have powerful women, but in the behind the scenes manipulative sense. As Lyrhawn said- the Duras sisters are the only example of this.
Oh, and the Borg.
Is there something to be said, here, that the evil people seem to have more prominantly written women in powerful positions? Hm.
I do think that our existing society does confine our writing, even if we try and imagine a totally equal society. Some characters we percieve as more male than others. When we say "captain of a starship" the image is a predominantly (although not entirely) male one. An admiral, in a more sedentary role, could be be either.
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posted
I seem to remember a cross-dressing Ferengi. I'm not sure if cross-dressing is the correct term, since Ferengi females don't wear clothes. But this was a woman passing as a man. Like Yentl in Space.
And before Jadzia on DS9, Crusher fell in love with a Trill in a male host, who later had a change of hosts, this time female. There was a little girl-on-girl kissing action in that episode, but in the end, Crusher couldn't deal with the lesbian love angle, and cut her Trill friend loose.
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quote:Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
No, I found the Janeway character to be completely uninspiring and barely believable. I think the failure of her character is the primary reason the Voyager was far less successful than either TNG or DS9.
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posted
Seven of Nine was the attempt to boost the series with a serious infusion of hot babe. What progress we will have made in the future, when women will prance around their space ships in skin-tight catsuits and high heels.
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quote:Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
No, I found the Janeway character to be completely uninspiring and barely believable. I think the failure of her character is the primary reason the Voyager was far less successful than either TNG or DS9.
posted
I believe it is because Star Trek is largely a social commentary by the writers. They want to paint a picture of a moral and social future utopia for mankind and to do that they contrast it with the current conditions on Earth today.
While women in the workforce has increasd dramatically, women in political and military positions of power are very rare. They just want to paint a picture of equality in the future, and to do that they overpopulate women in those roles.
Assuming your premise is correct.
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posted
Tante, the funny thing is that even though 7 of 9 was there for eye candy, she was also one of the most interesting characters at that point in the series. You're right about the clothing, though. I vaguely remember some episodes where she was wearing a starfleet uniform, and she looked so much better in it than in the catsuit and high heels.
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posted
Janeway was just horrible. For a competent female captain, see Rachel Garrett of the Enterprise-C (Yesterday's Enterprise, TNG).
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: I seem to remember a cross-dressing Ferengi. I'm not sure if cross-dressing is the correct term, since Ferengi females don't wear clothes. But this was a woman passing as a man. Like Yentl in Space.
And before Jadzia on DS9, Crusher fell in love with a Trill in a male host, who later had a change of hosts, this time female. There was a little girl-on-girl kissing action in that episode, but in the end, Crusher couldn't deal with the lesbian love angle, and cut her Trill friend loose.
I remember Crusher and her Trill love! But I don't remember them hooking up on-screen.
quote:s there something to be said, here, that the evil people seem to have more prominantly written women in powerful positions?
I'm having a hard time thinking of any fictional strong powerful women who a sympathetic characters. The truly powerful women always seem to be witches.
Am I missing something, or is the good powerful woman a character we simply don't have in modern American culture.
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Edit: Thinking of my other favorite series, Hyperion, we have Aenea, who is a very powerful messiah figure.
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quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Tante, the funny thing is that even though 7 of 9 was there for eye candy, she was also one of the most interesting characters at that point in the series.
posted
Oh I really liked Captain Garett of the Enterprise-C.
Star Trek has a lot of "groundbreaking" episodes you might say. Television firsts. The kiss between Jadzia and the other Trill was the first was the first gay kiss on prime time, and the show used to air on prime time, so yes, that counts. Also remember the first interracial kiss on network television was on the TOS episode "Plato's stephildren."
And while it's true that 7 of 9 was a very interesting character beyond her role as Borg Sex Kitten, the niche she was trying to fill as robot turned human, was a niche already filled by The Doctor. His search for humanity was more interesting than hers at every junction.
Back to the "groundbreaking" thing. In the DS9 episode "Far Beyond the Stars" (which was one of the best in all of Trek in my opinion), it was one of the very very few instances in the 90's for a prime time show to use the N word. It had been used all the time in the 70's, but in today's world is more or less considered taboo, and isn't used. But they did, and it wasn't just for the hell of it, that episode had real meaning.
posted
I think they have more female admirals for the same reason TV dramas love to have black female judges: it makes them look PC.
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posted
I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at porter, but I gotta tell you, I'm getting some really weird agenda-y vibes from this thread.
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posted
Right, and if Star Trek had all male Captains and Admirals, everyone would be saying "Isn't this the 24th century? Where are all the female captains and admirals?"
It's a lose/lose situation, I'm glad they chose to go with the more realistic situation.
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quote:Am I missing something, or is the good powerful woman a character we simply don't have in modern American culture.
I think that it is hard for a female character to be written without being boxed. One character may be strong, but may no exhibit equal characteristics. One may exhibit equal characteristics but may be "too masculine" and therefore Not A Real Woman.
Everyone woman on screen in analyzed rather more than every man in regards to her gender, and I think that tends to complicate things.
I can think of lots of believable, strong, sympathetic female characters, it's just they're always examined, and often found to be flawed. Of course they are.
m_p_h may have had an "agenda" in this thread, since he seems to know the answer to his question already, but I don't think it's a very important one. I agree with him in principal if not in word usage.
There either seem to be or are more female admirals in Star Trek because the equality of the society is an important part of the show and making small characters in powerful positions a colourful group is an easy way of showing that equality.
Star Trek's not exactly the most subtly or cleverly written show in the world.
I'm not sure Political Correctness really comes into it, since the whole Star Trek Universe is supposed to be equal, not to mention the Prime Directive, rendering it by definition what we call "Politically Correct".
In Science Fiction, PCness is somewhat of a moot point, because we cannot judge a different universe by what we consider our own standards of acceptability and reality.
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posted
I'm kinda wondering about the actor selection thing too. I mean, one the bros side you've got Patrick Stweart, Avery Brooks, and Scott Bakula. And on the ho..hole other side, you've got a third rate Katharine Hepburn.
Were I casting a show, I know that I'd empty column A before I'd even think about column B there. Which makes me wonder, is there a lack of female actors who you'd want to see playing the captain of a starship?
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posted
DS9 had the best female characters in Trek history. Kira Nerys is a fantastic leader who is probably more aggressive and militant than most of the other male leaders. People follow her not because she is "nice" or charismatic, but because she is unfailingly fair and courageous. Her deep religious faith also gives her a different sense of conviction which adds depth to her character.
Jadzia Dax is adventurous and relatively promiscuous, two qualities that are usually associated with men. She can beat Warf in a fight, swindle Quark out of money, and trade dirty jokes with Captain Sisko. She is often considered "one of the guys" and most of her friends manage to look beyond her beautiful exterior and have learned to appreciate the wise and mercurial symbiant in her belly.
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quote:I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at porter, but I gotta tell you, I'm getting some really weird agenda-y vibes from this thread.
Well, I certainly don't know what that agenda is. Yeah, I have my own opinion about the topic, and it's but that's hardly an agenda.
As has been said by many others, it is much more difficult to write daring, adventerous female characters than male characters. In TNG especially, I think that they could pretend like they were depicting a truly equal society but without having to take the risk of writing characters like Kira or Jadsia.
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