posted
The thing is I'm not expecting an instantaneous answer. It's just that I've been researching and praying on the subject since November (back when I first met with the missionaries). I feel like I've put forth a lot of effort and that it's been a decent amount of time, and it's like there's still nothing.
The lack of an immediate answer isn't the sole reason I feel my faith is failing. My day to day life provides me at times with reasons to feel a decrease in my faith. There's a yearning deep inside me for a deep faith, for something to believe in. This yearning though seems unanswered every day, which is both frustrating and bad for my faith.
My experience with the missionaries is always stressful (even when we might be having an enlightening discussion, I am stressing about the fact that I'm meeting with them and such). As for the second part, I find it more like I'm making up excuses to be involved when each day I find myself more and more apart from it. I ask myself why that is, but I don't have an answer.
Someone once said two very true (and very hurtful) things to me. First, my self-loathing for the most part comes from the fact that I isolate myself. More or less, I hate myself because I keep myself separate from everyone else. The second thing was this: most people live their lives and take the good with the bad and are happy with it. I on the other hand live my life, and I'm constantly unhappy.
One would think that knowing these things I could fix what I'm not satisfied with. That hasn't happened. When I try to de-isolate myself, I find myself in situations that I'm still not happy with and that I don't feel are right. This situation is one such thing. Looking into the Mormon church (and possibly joining) was to be a way to find people with similar beliefs, to stop myself from being an isolated hermit. Instead though, I find that my beliefs may not totally line up with theirs, that I'm not positive that there is truth in what they say, and that my own faith is just fading away. I feel like I'm returning to isolation again now, and that just makes me hate myself all the more.
EDIT: I apologize to anyone who read this. It's depressing drivel. It's a clear sign that I need to take some medicine and get some sleep.
posted
As much as I believe the gospel to be true, it cannot immediately solve feelings of loathing or self-hatred. In time it can bring balance to one's life, but it's not an immediate solution to more serious issues. And associating oneself with a group of like-minded people can be nice, but again ultimately fruitless if you're not converted to the core reasons why they gather in the first place.
It may be helpful to go back to the beginning and ask yourself: Do I genuinely want to know if it's true or not? If so, am I prepared to act when I know? Will you "test-drive" the missionaries' testimonies by following their suggestions––not out of obligation, but genuine interest to learn if it's right?
And if you still feel this is one of those situations where you're still not happy and you don't feel it is right, then maybe it's time to take a step back and re-examine why you're doing it. All those in my experience who accepted the gospel did it because they felt happy about it, and that it would be a positive change in their life. If you're not happy––would you feel this way, regardless of what faith you were investigating?
The advantage to prayer is that you are never a hermit, but it's a learned skill like anything else. Read that link I provided!
EDIT: Having come form a long line of family members who are either bipolar or manic/depressive, hopefully you are considering that your feelings may be more physical in nature. I like how my brother puts it:
quote:One would think that knowing these things I could fix what I'm not satisfied with.
Pfresh: I doubt anybody actually thinks that. Most of us find ourselves feeling isolated and alone... we're each of us enough different from the other that that feeling of cameraderie that comes with sharing anything with anybody can be fleeting in the best of times.
If I had a solution to that, I'd be a happier person myself. I would simply caution you: people who advertise that they have the answers to life's problems very nearly always want something from you. Find out what that is before you drink the Kool-Aid.
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Reading over some of your recent posts, I think that I understand your struggles, at least to some extent.
I have never had a really strong experience that showed me in no uncertain terms that, yes, in fact God exists and loves me and that there is truth in any religion. At the same time, I have for many years felt a strong yearning for God, a desire to have that deep faith. When I was discerning my future and thinking about what I wanted to do with my life, I waited for God to send a lightning bolt. I didn't want to do anything until I KNEW it was the right thing. After sitting around for a few years waiting for lightning to strike, I realized, that perhaps it would never come. After a really good prayer/reflection experience, I finally felt that God HAD been speaking to me the whole time. There was no great neon sign, but that God had sent things into my life to help show the way... conversations with people, friends saying just the right thing at just the right time, the deep yearnings in my heart... I believe they all came from God. I think your desire, your yearning for faith, is already the sign of faith stronger than that of some of the very "religious" people that I know. This may not make any sense at all, and is probably not helpful in the least, but I just felt I needed to say it. Good luck in discernment with this religious group. Remember that the will of God will never lead you where the grace of God can't keep you. Trust yourself, trust those guiding you and trust in God.
quote:Originally posted by estavares: EDIT: Having come form a long line of family members who are either bipolar or manic/depressive, hopefully you are considering that your feelings may be more physical in nature. I like how my brother puts it:
"Say your prayers, but keep your lithium handy."
Good advice.
I'm the first in my family (whole extended family even) to be diagnosed with a psychological problem. I suffer from anxiety (particularly social anxiety), which in turns leads to depression. When I wrote my message earlier (the one at the top of the page), I hadn't taken my anxiety medicine for the day. So therefore it was logical that I was worried and starting to get depressed. I have since then taken my anxiety medicine and I feel at least slightly better.
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posted
Yeah, but the alcohol was a while ago. I wouldn't think it's effects would extend over 12 hours.
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quote:There was no great neon sign, but that God had sent things into my life to help show the way... conversations with people, friends saying just the right thing at just the right time, the deep yearnings in my heart... I believe they all came from God.
And I believe they come from a vast reservoir of caring and sensitivity inside you. I know personally the deep desire for faith in a higher power -- but faith in your fellow man is both deeper and more satisfying.
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posted
Actually, TomD, faith in humanity is the essense of Faith in God. Love God, Love your Neighbor. When you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God. Men shall know ye are my desciples if you love one another.
Your comment only shows the extent of your ignorance about Faith, Religion, and God.
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posted
Perhaps you're already aware of it, but you might find this a helpful site; the people there are generally quite friendly, except for me of course. But I generally post in the Evolution/Creation forum, and I don't think we disagree on that.
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Not really TomD, because religiously speaking faith in God can save. Faith in only humanity will damn you.
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I talked with the missionaries again this morning. I talked to them about praying and not hearing an answer. They actually offered the "it takes time sometimes" response this time, which I liked better. I talked to them about waning faith (and its relation to my anxiety and depression). They talked about having to endure trials and chastisement to be able to walk in God's sight. It was at least a sort of interesting conversation. At the very end of it, they took out a notecard. They told me at the top to write down what my ultimate goal was and then to list ways that I could try and go towards that goal. They offered to help in any way they could in reaching this goal. So that was good. That's about all I really have to say about this meeting.
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posted
Strange, Occasional, that seems a decidedly non-LDS viewpoint. From what others on this board have said, getting damned in mormon theology takes more than just not believing in the correct God.
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quote:Strange, Occasional, that seems a decidedly non-LDS viewpoint. From what others on this board have said, getting damned in mormon theology takes more than just not believing in the correct God.
Not really Fugu13. Occasional gave a VERY Mormonish viewpoint. In LDS theology damn means nothing more then not being able to progress. There are saving ordinances that are needed to progress--baptism, endowments, temple marriage, et cetera.
Not believing in God, not accepting His "one true church," and not getting your saving ordinances through the "restored priesthood" are all reasons to be damned.
If you are just a good person in LDS theology, then you will await in “Spirit Prison” after you die until you accept the gospel and and receive your ordinances through proxy temple work. That is why temple work is so important to LDS members--it is a chance for them to save good people like Tom who did not accept the gospel in this life.
He is damned (not progressing) until he accepts the gospel and the proxy temple work done for him after his future death. Proxy work so people can progress is the biggest reason genealogy is so important in Mormonism.
EDITED to fix a word.
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posted
Honestly, I'd suggest dealing with faith and anxiety/depression as two entirely separate things. The church I went to through my mid-teens tried to connect the two, and it just made things worse. Like basically, they said that if I was REALLY saved and REALLY faithful, then I wouldn't have these issues at all, and the fact that I was still having them (after having taken two months out of school and spending a LOT of time trying to get answers out of my church and youth pastor) meant that there was something wrong with my faith. Which, looking back, is quite ridiculous. I mean, if I'd had diabetes or something and didn't completely heal from prayer, nobody would ever claim that it was because I was a bad Christian.
Anyways. The point is, try not to link depression, anxiety, and faith so closely that you think your anxiety or psychological issues will just go away once you have the "right" faith.
posted
BUt could he create a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it? lol i know i know logic dictates their can never be two absolutes power in the universe but its still fun to keep religion light and breezy, as for Buddy who had the Mezusah on his door, i invite you to join the Judean Peoples Liberation Front and stick it to those missionaries who jilted u at the door
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just so i dont get a bunch of people breaking out the protocols of zion on me the Judean Peoples Liberation Front is a tribute to the movie life of brian
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posted
They didn't try and say that if I was more faithful or something that my depression/anxiety would be cured. In fact, they just seemed to agree with my assessment that my anxiety could cause problems with my faith (not the other way around).
I don't in any way think that my psychological problems will go away once I have the right faith. They aren't tied in that way. My psychological problems will always be there. It's more of acknowledging that they might get in the way of my faith growing larger.
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posted
Not really fugu13. I was told this once by someone that I respected highly and trusted his information. Consquently, this is heresay, so take it for what it's worth. This individual, who was studying theogy and languages, said that the correct translation for damnation from ancient hebrew means just that. A stop in progression. That would make sense wouldn't it? When it comes to faith we are never really holding still. If we are not doing things to increase our faith, then our faith begins to fade.
I always compare belief in God and the principles of religion like swimming upstream. It takes effort and can be very difficult. If we stop trying we will start to lose the progression that we have made, however if we keep at it, not only we reach our goal at the of the swim (whatever that goal may be) but we will also have far greater strength than we did at the beginning of the swim.
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posted
I would say the correct translation for the hebrew word commonly translated as damnation would then not be the word damnation, but some other word. But it does not mean that the definition of damnation is incorrect, merely that a translation is incorrect. As for the usage of the word damnation itself in a religious context, that is used extensively to mean being sent to hell.
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rivka: I was assuming such a word existed, for otherwise Reddwardf's post doesn't make much sense.
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Well, it has evolved to mean that. Obviously I am inferring that in order to understand the true meaning of the term it is better to look back at its original context, rather than running with its modern interpretation. Since much of the christian world does not believe that true prophets exist today and the scriptures are now locked with nothing more to add, I would say that it would be foolish to accept modern interpretations of religious concepts without considering the ancient context as well.
Yes, today, many teachers of religion use the term damnation to mean burning in hell, however the thing to consider here is whether or not that is God's meaning for the concept. Now since most do not believe in modern prophecy and therefore cannot turn to a modern prophet for the answer, we have to look at sources of the concepts and use what we know of ancient languages to understand what the original writers of the bible intended the concept to mean.
I have to admit, that can be very difficult. The modern concept of damnation has been taught to mean what it currently does since the dark ages. So if an error in translation occured to create this misinterpretation of the concept of damnation, then is likely that it happened between the translation of the concept from the hebrew texts into the latin based texts that would become the main language of the Christian Church of the time. All of this also depends on what you believe about heaven and hell as well.
I got this from an LDS seminary teacher that I had in high school that was working on his Masters Degree in Ancient Languages, I think. Or he could have been studing just ancient hebrew. I'm not sure which. He gave us this example as part of a lesson on the importance of modern revelation. Mormons are almost unique in their belief in modern day prophecy and revelation as a source of answers to the confusion that challenges modern christianity today. We of course also believe that the scriptures can be interpreted correctly or interpreted to understand God's correct meaning.
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To my knowledge it does, but again I am using someone else as a source of my knowledge. At the moment, I wouldn't even know where to tell you go to confirm or deny my premise.
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"From what others on this board have said, getting damned in mormon theology takes more than just not believing in the correct God."
True, to a point. But, specifically in relation to what TomD. has said, trusting in the arm of flesh (i.e. having faith in humanity without God in your life) is a sure way of getting damned. In fact, it is one of the fastest ways to damn yourself.
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quote:But, specifically in relation to what TomD. has said, trusting in the arm of flesh (i.e. having faith in humanity without God in your life) is a sure way of getting damned. In fact, it is one of the fastest ways to damn yourself.
There's a difference between having faith in humanity (I interpret this to mean, "People will usually do what's good") and putting your trust in the arm of flesh. They are not mutually exclusive.
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quote:But, specifically in relation to what TomD. has said, trusting in the arm of flesh (i.e. having faith in humanity without God in your life) is a sure way of getting damned.
Or not. In fact, I submit that trusting in man and not desperately seeking solace in false Gods is a far, far healthier and happier way to live.
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quote: Or not. [Smile] In fact, I submit that trusting in man and not desperately seeking solace in false Gods is a far, far healthier and happier way to live.
Well Tom, it sounds like you would fit right in as being Mormon. They put a lot of trust in "Prophets and men" (flesh) who hold the priesthood. Last year they celebrated Josheph Smith's birthday so much that it almost overshadowed Christmas.
Wait...
quote: trusting in the arm of flesh (i.e. having faith in humanity without God in your life) is a sure way of getting damned
I guess Occasional already debunked my snarkyness.
Now to something more productive: If you want to understand how damnation works in Mormonism, you need to understand "degrees if glory." The following quote is from wikipedia and seems mostly accurate--I think they are missing some of the other ordinances besides baptism needed to get into the Celestial Kingdom.
quote: The Celestial Kingdom (whose glory is compared to the brightness of the sun in the sky, as its inhabitants have all truth and light) is where the righteous will live with God and with their families. This kingdom includes multiple degrees of glory, the highest of which is exaltation. Those who have had the ordinances of eternal marriage, which is performed in Temples, and baptism may be exalted if they are found worthy by God. Accountable individuals must be baptized and repent to gain entrance to the Celestial Kingdom; Latter-day Saints profess that all children who die before the age of accountability automatically inherit a celestial glory.
Those good people who are not valiant in following Jesus or who do not accept the Gospel do not qualify for exaltation and will be consigned to the Terrestrial Kingdom (whose glory is compared to the brightness of the moon in the sky). This kingdom is one of great glory, but without the presence of God the Father. An ultimate willingness to keep the "law of carnal commandments" (the Ten Commandments) is considered essential to enter this kingdom.
Murderers, other criminals, and the like who do not accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ will eventually spend eternity with people of like intent in the Telestial Kingdom, and their glory will be as that of the stars in the night sky. This is also considered a kingdom of glory and has been described as being much better than earthly life. All those who do not qualify for a higher degree of glory will automatically enter this kingdom unless they deny the Holy Ghost, a sin it is believed very few people are able to commit.
Those few people who do, after gaining a full knowledge of the Gospel, willfully deny and contend against the Holy Ghost, are believed to inherit no glory. Most members of the Church refer to this place as Outer Darkness; this is not to be confused with traditional Christianity's definition of the term. An individual so banished is called a Son of Perdition. Forgiveness is not possible for these souls, though they will be resurrected. There is debate within the church as to whether or not a female is a capable of committing the sins necessitating inheritance of a kingdom without glory.[citation needed]
Before people dwell eternally in their assigned kingdom of glory, they go through resurrection and Judgement.
The thing to note is that all three kingdoms are degrees of glory. I heard in church, from a non official, that Brigham Young said that if we could have a vision of the lowest degree of glory (Telestial Kingdom) then we would kill ourselves to get there.
What makes it damnation is that we are eternally stuck without progression. I interpret that to mean we 1: can not become like Gods and 2: can not continue to make eternal families.
Telestial and Terestial are degrees of glory, tho they are also damnation. Perdition it the closest thing to traditional hell in Mormon theology. It is described as outer darkness. Satan/Lucifer goes there--along with the souls that followed Lucifer instead of choosing to come to earth.
You have to have a perfect knowledge that the gospel is true and then deny it in order to qualify for Outer Darkness. Because of that--most people (even Hitler) do no qualify for that type of damnation. I heard debate whether even Judas will go to Perdition. He is the most likely mortal candidate.
One more note for Mormons: Wikipedia says that those in Outer Darkness will be resurrected. I always thought they would never be resurrected. Am I wrong does wikipedia need to be corrected?
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quote:The problem with false gods is that they look and sound just like the real ones.
You mean... you recognize that there are REAL gods?
I admit being pleasantly startled...
quote:They put a lot of trust in "Prophets and men" (flesh) who hold the priesthood.
Would you concede that the trust isn't in the men themselves but in the idea that God has appointed them? (There's a big difference to me...)
quote: Last year they celebrated Josheph Smith's birthday so much that it almost overshadowed Christmas.
Well...Joseph Smith WAS actually born on Dec. 23; Christ almost certainly was NOT born on Dec. 25.
So there's a good reason...well, not GOOD, but anyway...
And I didn't notice that JS' birthday was celebrated more. And I'm Activities Chairperson for our ward; we didn't do anything special for it.
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quote:You mean... you recognize that there are REAL gods?
I recognize that there MAY be real ones. Or they could ALL be false. They could also ALL be real, although that possibility boggles the mind. Regardless, from the viewpoint of an unbiased observer, they all look pretty much alike.
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posted
In order to be an observer in the manner you suggest, Katie, one would by definition have to be biased. So, yes, I DO know that. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Wikipedia says that those in Outer Darkness will be resurrected. I always thought they would never be resurrected. Am I wrong does wikipedia need to be corrected?
It depends on a lot of interpretations/extrapolations of doctrine.
Outer Darkness, for you non-Mo's, is the Mormon version of Hell, or as near as we get to it. The only people that (theorhetically) get sent there are people who had a real knowledge of Christ (differentiated from faith) and would still kill him, or cause him to suffer, anyway. What happens in Outer Darkness is entirely speculative; I think God says somewhere that He doesn't let anyone not subject to OD see what it's like.
Back on to lem's question-- will souls destined for OD be ressurrected? The answer, at least relying on scripture, is a bit muddled. The Book of Mormon and the Mormon interpretation of the Bible says that everyone that is born will be ressurrected (thanks to Christ's atonement); and that after ressurrection, the spirit and the perfected body cannot be seperated. Doctrine and Covenants (an additional set of revelations given to Joseph Smith) implies in chapter 76 that souls consigned to outer darkness will NOT be ressurrected.
There's a bit of Mormon mythology that says that Cain will rule over Lucifer in OD, because Cain had/has a body...
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posted
Thanks ScottR. That is really interesting. I never thougth about resurrection for OD because I assumed that no mortal would have enough knowledge to go there. I thought it was reserved for Lucifer and the 1/3 host who followed him.
quote: There's a bit of Mormon mythology that says that Cain will rule over Lucifer in OD, because Cain had/has a body...
That is just cool. One of the things I LOVE about Mormon doctrine is the concept of "estates."
Since we "followed God's Plan" and got a body, we are more powerful then Satan. He is a snake. He can bite our heels, but we can crush his head.
Altho I no longer believe, I think it is very healthy and positive when religion gives you more power then evil. I believe the spirit of that doctrine completely.
I am always bothered in horror movies when the devil and his minions have more power over an individual then that person's own mind/faith.
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quote:I am always bothered in horror movies when the devil and his minions have more power over an individual then that person's own mind/faith.
This was one of the things that I thought Pullman did really well with in 'His Dark Materials:' the mortals are stronger than the angels because they have physical bodies.
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quote: Would you concede that the trust isn't in the men themselves but in the idea that God has appointed them? (There's a big difference to me...)
I would. I don't actually need to concede-I recognize faith in God appointing them is intregal to Mormon belief. That is why I stated Occasional already debunked me.
I just wanted to point out that there are different ways to read that scripture.
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quote: This was one of the things that I thought Pullman did really well with in 'His Dark Materials:' the mortals are stronger than the angels because they have physical bodies.
I was justing reading up on 'His Dark Materials' in wikipedia. I will have to check out these books.
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posted
CS Lewis made some interesting observations about devils vs. mortals in Book 2 of the "Out of the Silent Planet" series.
**************SPOILER******************
Ransom (the protagonist) was able to physically beat up and eventually kill a man possessed by a devil. Although the devil could control the body, it was more as a puppet is controlled, not like the seamless integration of body and soul.
The devil was not able to possess him, because he hadn't invited it in.
The devil, although possessing extreme intelligence did not love it. He simply used it as a tool when he had to, and as soon as he could reverted to using base cruelty as a weapon.
Although the series of books wasn't that well-written of a story, there were some interesting points.
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You know, I'm going to dispute this. Towards which hypothetical god do you think I'm biased, at least insofar as it would affect my ability to perceive differences between them?
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quote: Mormons are almost unique in their belief in modern day prophecy and revelation as a source of answers to the confusion that challenges modern christianity today.
Almost unique among Protestants. But protestant Christians seem almost unique in the context of world religions in NOT following any modern day leader or interpreter of their religion.
Sikhs, I believe, also currently look to scriptures as their final word. But almost every other religion seems to have a Pope, Prophet, Guru, Imam, Lama, or other leader who is designated as the one who receives revelation for their followers and clarifies difficulties.
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posted
I think my time with the Mormons will end with the next visit (if it even happens). After much thinking and even more prayer, I don't feel like it is the right direction for me. I think the reasons I was leaning towards the church weren't the right kind of reasons. The church was a temporary solution to permanent problems I have. I have come to the conclusion that I need to work on my own tolerance of others and my ability to forgive others and forgive myself for the mistakes that are made in every day life. This is something beyond the church and beyond religion.
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pfresh, I hope you find what it is you seek. Best of luck with everything in your life. I encourage you to continue to pray for guidance, along whatever path it is you choose throughout your life. And to realize that you are greatly loved, and precious in the sight of God. Remember who you are, that you are of inestimable worth, that you are heir to the kingdom. Treat yourself with the same care and love that you would give to the Christ child, were he in your care. Never forget that you are the one who is to grow up into the ruler of universes, so invest much care into the education of your heart, mind, and spirit. May the blessings and grace of our Heavenly Father be with you always, Amen. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: Mormons are almost unique in their belief in modern day prophecy and revelation as a source of answers to the confusion that challenges modern christianity today.
Almost unique among Protestants. But protestant Christians seem almost unique in the context of world religions in NOT following any modern day leader or interpreter of their religion.
Sikhs, I believe, also currently look to scriptures as their final word. But almost every other religion seems to have a Pope, Prophet, Guru, Imam, Lama, or other leader who is designated as the one who receives revelation for their followers and clarifies difficulties.
This is very true Tatiana. Thanks for reminding me of that! Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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