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Author Topic: Anyone see Big Love
The Pixiest
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quote:
Somethings are more fun to fantasize about I reckon than to live.
It's sad how often this is true.
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Amanecer
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I LOVED the season premiere!!! I think it's interesting how much this show has evolved. I watched the DVD for the first season and overall the show was incredible. At first, I was a little bored. It did seem like they were going more for shock than substance. I think it just took the writers a little while to figure out the show's center and what their characters were really about. But once they found it- man, this show became one of the best I have ever seen. Interestingly, it seems like once the show found itself the number and level of sex scenes decreased a lot.

I've enjoyed reading Margene's blog as well. Does anybody know if one of the show's writers writes it?

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Occasional
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I don't watch the show and never will. However, I think they should do an episode with a person in a group like "Tapestry," an anti-poly group. Those people are like ultra-feminists with a specific grudge.

This does bring up a question that bothers me about having this show exist at all. What is the purpose of this existing? As a mainstream Mormon I find its very existance as offensive. Then again, there is a reason (like that equally horrible show Sapranos) why it was on pay cable. Disgusting.

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TheHumanTarget
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OC, is it the depiction of polygamy that you find so disgusting or something else? You say that you've never watched the show, so I'm not sure what to make of your vehement offense.
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Elizabeth
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Wait, last night's show was the season premiere? I thought it was just one I had missed.
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Occasional
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I think I pretty much expressed the reason for my dislike is that it existed as a show at all. It has nothing to do with what it might be like if I actually watch it. For instance, I can imagine there are a lot of people who would never watch, but be as equally disgusted, by a television show about the KKK as protagonists. My exact reasons are complicated and I don't have time to elaberate.
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Synesthesia
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I saw a good chunk of it (flicking back and forth)
It wasn't so bad, but I still can't understand why he just doesn't stick with his first wife.
I like her best.

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The Pixiest
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occasional: They go out of their way to point out these aren't mainstream mormons. You needn't worry about being confused for them by anyone who actually watches the show.

Elizabeth: Yes, Monday's episode was the season premire. It was pretty good. I loved Margine's guilt trip. I also liked how it showed the women loved eachother too (though niki is still a cold beeyotch)

I don't like the Juniper Creek subplots as much. Severe Legal Trouble is a brewin' on that front. That's not as interesting to me as the family dynamics.

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Elizabeth
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Oh, but the Pixiest, that mother! She is priceless!

I love Margene. It is the officious first wife I can't stand.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
occasional: They go out of their way to point out these aren't mainstream mormons. You needn't worry about being confused for them by anyone who actually watches the show.

I don't think that being confused with polygamists is most Mormons' main concern with Big Love.
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The Pixiest
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kq: well, he left his objections up to our imagination. I don't know what could have invoked his ire so much as to compare them to the KKK.
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TheHumanTarget
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Pix,
That underlying anger and disgust was what I was poking at. Very few things in this world evoke such ire in me, so I was curious as to what the root cause was.
Now, with the KKK comparison, I'm even more intrigued.

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Synesthesia
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Am I alone in being strangely interested in a show that would show the KKK in a positive light?
I doubt it could be done, but they love their pets and children. That's a positive thing.
Plus some of them have a strange interest in Odin.... Which is sort of cool...

*is weird*

iI could see why a person would object to the show, but I find it fascinating and I feel the same way about the Sopranos. But I have a strange interest in the mob I don' understand.
I hate them, but they FASCINATE me.

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TheHumanTarget
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quote:
I doubt it could be done, but they love their pets and children.
This is an interesting statement. I have no doubts at all that people can be shown in a sympathetic light while still belonging to an abhorrent group. Case in point, my step-grandfather was (from what I've heard) a good man who took care of his family, ran a successful business, was kind to strangers, and had a white robe in his closet. There's a strange dichotomy between what people will do as an individual and what people will do as a group.
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otterk10
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I watched the first episode from the first season yesterday. I'm a little confused. It seems that only the fundamentalists still practice polygamy. However, Bill is ultra secular, and secular America condemns polygamy. Why does he practice it?
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Dagonee
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Bill is not ultra-secular. He is in hiding. It's very clear - mostly in later episodes - that he is very devout in his beliefs.
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scholar
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To be honest, I don't see what is inherently abhorrent about polygamy. I can see how it can be abused and the system only really works well in a situation where there are more men than women (and efforts to keep that ratio uneven would be abhorrent), but the idea itself doesn't seem that bad to me. Of course, considering all the comments Mormons get about polygamy, I think the funniest thing is that my daughter's closest polygamist roots come not from her 6th generation LDS side, but instead through her Chinese side.
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Occasional
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Just to be clear, I am comparing the discomfort rather than relatedness between Polygamy and KKK representation. Here are some of my reasons the best I can.

1)To have polygamists who are also of the "Mormon tradition" will by its nature cause confusion as to the mainstream. This is especially the case with casual viewers. No matter how much they split the two the only ones who are going to notice are those who are already aware.

2)I am very concerned about the actual religious content of the show. Not just what it shows that could be positive, but the potential negative of what it could show or its portrayal. Television has not been very kind to the more conservative religious traditions. In fact, they haven't been kind to religion at all.

3) This is partly from what I have heard, but the producers have an agenda that is for me questionable. Politically speaking, they are showing something that is illegal and to many people immoral as perfectly normal. You can be the judge of what that message means.

There is probably more, but this is at least the surface reasons for my discomfort.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Politically speaking, they are showing something that is illegal and to many people immoral as perfectly normal.
No, they're not. It's definitely not shown as "perfectly normal."
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Artemisia Tridentata
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There was a group of ultra secular Mormons (Godbieites) who left the Church in in Utah during the 1870's their "hook' was to join the mainstream US culture. They rejected most mormon beliefs,but retained the practice of polygamy. Many of them became "spiritualists". They had some connections with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and his group.
(edit) I was reponding to otterk10. I just got sidetracked and took too long. Sorry.

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ketchupqueen
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I saw a special on TLC about polygamists who were NOT Mormon or a Mormon splinter group.

It seemed to me that if I and my church were directed by God to pracice it again I wouldn't find it too abbhorent. The problems in this family didn't come from the fact that they were a polygamous family; they came from the fact that the guy was a selfish, self-centered, philandering jerk who didn't consider his wives' feelings before sleeping with a new woman.

Similarly, I think the problems in those splinter groups who practice polygamy don't come from polygamy itself but from the denigration of women, the forced marriage and rape of children, the thinning of the male population, etc.-- all of which are not necessarily part of polygamy but part of that specific cultural/religious practice as it is currently practiced.

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scholar
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Looking around at my dirty house, the piles of laundry, the empty cupboards (I was supposed to go grocery shopping on Monday, but was too tired from work and then Tuesday had some unexpected errands), part of me thinks, if she cooked and cleaned and shopped, I wouldn't mind sharing my husband. In some of the Chinese literature I read, the women get to decide on the next wife and pick people they can be friends with. So, it isn't necessarily that bad- unless you're the lowest wife and the first wife is horrid. Then your life can be pretty miserable.
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Synesthesia
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I'd hate to be part of a polygamist relationship.
Only one small factor would make me consider it.
But being a 4th wife?
Sharing a husband?
No way!

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
For instance, I can imagine there are a lot of people who would never watch, but be as equally disgusted, by a television show about the KKK as protagonists.
I'd be terribly curious about a show about a functional KKK family, or at least a thoughtful miniseries.

I've seen a few episodes of Big Love, and the hook seems to be Jeanne Triplehorn. She seems fantastic. Paxton's character is nice enough. A little blah, another bourgeoisie white rube philistine. But hey, the nation is lousy with them and we've even elected one president, twice. Triplehorn seems to carry the show. If some active grand wizard of the KKK received similar treatment, the show would be illuminating.

[ June 13, 2007, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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romanylass
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quote:
Originally posted by scholar:
Looking around at my dirty house, the piles of laundry, the empty cupboards , part of me thinks, if she cooked and cleaned and shopped, I wouldn't mind sharing my husband. .

Um, that, and she'd have to take on some of the sex duty too. I'd be all for it.
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Amanecer
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quote:
I've seen a few episodes of Big Love, and the hook seems to be Jeanne Triplehorn. She seems fantastic.
Yes, she is fantastic in this. But I wouldn't so much say she carries the show as much as her character carries the family. Every family member, except possibly Bill, has vast depth and adds a lot to the show. The only reason I exclude Bill is that he's so ultimately concerned about/ defined by caring for his family that he doesn't really have any time for himself. I think he's a great character, but he's certainly not the character that makes you think.
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Elizabeth
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"The only reason I exclude Bill is that he's so ultimately concerned about/ defined by caring for his family that he doesn't really have any time for himself"

That is interesting, because I see him as completely and utterly selfish.

He reminds me of a character in a novel, a Dickens novel, maybe, and I can't quite place it. One of those people who is "good" and just so boring and harmful to those closest to him.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
So, it isn't necessarily that bad- unless you're the lowest wife and the first wife is horrid. Then your life can be pretty miserable.
Yeah, but in my "ideal" practice of polygamy, there would be no first and second hierarchy, just lovingly welcoming in future sister wives.

I know, wouldn't always happen that way. But ideally.

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katharina
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ketchupqueen?
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katharina
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I'm so kidding, sweetheart. It was just too good to resist posting.
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katharina
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For myself, absolutely not. Never. I don't care. I'm not sharing. I can hire a housekeeper to do the dishes. The promise of heaven isn't worth being trapped in hell on earth.
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ketchupqueen
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[ROFL]

I think it is significant that only some were ever called to practice polygamy, not all, and you were not supposed to have more wives than you could a) support and b) treat equally.

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katharina
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If my husband could support another household, he can hire a maid and a part-time nanny.

I suggest More Wives Than One, a treatment of plural marriage that I read and really enjoyed. Basically, sometimes it worked out. Sometimes it didn't. Divorce was an option for when it didn't. Being first wife most certainly did not give veto power - husbands married second and third wives without the permission of the first all the time. It was very illuminating and it made me love and respect the men and women who were so faithful, but wow - yeah, never.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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The relationship between Wanda and Joe is sweet, too. Wanda is nuts in the coolest way.
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ketchupqueen
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I think I've read that one, actually. It was good.

My husband and I have actually discussed this what-if. Right now, of course, it would be moot even if the prophet said, "Polygamy is back on! Go out and marry a second wife!" because we don't have any money. [Wink] But say it happened in ten years. It comes down to I trust my husband and the Lord that much. I would be willing to give it a try. And on his part, he wouldn't think of it if I didn't do the wife-choosing. [Wink]

Okay, we're weird, we have these discussions when we come home from church that go off on all kinds of tangents. [Smile]

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Occasional
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From my understanding, the practice of polygamy was a calling. You did it because you were chosen by the leadership to take another wife. I can't recall if that was always the case, but most of the time it seems to have been that way.
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Elizabeth
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Occasional,
If it makes you feel better, I have learned more about how polygamy is NOT a part of the Mormon church than otherwise.
It is tastefully done, and I think it brings up huge issues that arise in any marriage. In fact, the whole idea of polygamy, while not appealing to me on many levels, is something I can understand, now. These people are not freaks, though they are connected to freaks.(the compound gang)
They are a family. They love each other, get angry with each other, and forgive each other like any other family. The parents screw up the children no more or less than the rest of us do, while trying valiantly to do the right thing by them.
I love this show.

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katharina
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KQ, what was your favorite part of the book?

I think what was so revelatory was that it examined how polygamy was actually practiced, both the better-than-we-remember parts and the not-as-good-as-we-remember parts.

Basically, the idea of taking another wife always being a calling that only happened if the existing wife agreed is a sugar-coating of the reality. A big, thick sugar coat.

I would never want it and not do it because either I would no longer be my husband's main concern, or else we would together be creating an underclass and pretending she was equal. Both are too distasteful.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by scholar:
To be honest, I don't see what is inherently abhorrent about polygamy. I can see how it can be abused and the system only really works well in a situation where there are more men than women (and efforts to keep that ratio uneven would be abhorrent), but the idea itself doesn't seem that bad to me. Of course, considering all the comments Mormons get about polygamy, I think the funniest thing is that my daughter's closest polygamist roots come not from her 6th generation LDS side, but instead through her Chinese side.

I say this with a deep love and appreciation for Chinese culture and thought.

I would not look to them generally speaking as a model of how a husband and wife ought to interact.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I think I've read that one, actually. It was good.

My husband and I have actually discussed this what-if. Right now, of course, it would be moot even if the prophet said, "Polygamy is back on! Go out and marry a second wife!" because we don't have any money. [Wink] But say it happened in ten years. It comes down to I trust my husband and the Lord that much. I would be willing to give it a try. And on his part, he wouldn't think of it if I didn't do the wife-choosing. [Wink]

Okay, we're weird, we have these discussions when we come home from church that go off on all kinds of tangents. [Smile]

Hey I talked this over with the Mrs. as well. She is very much opposed to it, but then again as I understood it, the man cannot marry a second wife without the first agreeing to it.

I would not personally ever seek after a 2nd wife in this life, it would be really rough on me if I was asked my by a leader of the church to take a woman as a 2nd wife.

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katharina
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She had to agree to it, but in practice, if she didn't agree to it, then she would be "unreasonable" or unfaithful and they would go ahead anyway.

So, basically, she had the choice to agree or to have it happen without her agreement.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
The only reason I exclude Bill is that he's so ultimately concerned about/ defined by caring for his family that he doesn't really have any time for himself
This is what bothers me the most about the pro-family ethos in general, thought not so much that Bill doesn't have time for himself, but he doesn't take time to care about anything else. When everyone is so loaded down with kids and family responsibilities and getting into heaven by having more kids and attending your family responsibilities, the entire picture isn't so much selfish, but sophisticatedly clannish, bereft of true civic responsibility, which admittedly, I equate largely with caring for strangers. First off, I think Barb is perfect: they wrote her as smart, kind, passionate, beautiful, funny, curious, and civic-minded. She is the center of the show, and not because she is the center of the family, but because she is the best person. She could be the third wife, and she'd still be the best person on the show.

Bill is going to spend the rest of his life having kids and committing minor sins of commission and omission to keep those kids fed and happy. The guy is worried about earning daily bread for his family and gaining entrance into the celestial kingdom, and since his family is so big, he doesn't spend any effort worrying about anything else. Even if he only had one wife, I'm just not sure that that's the right model for the American man.
_________

I've been thinking about families in general, and the whole idea of teaching kids the difference between right and wrong, but always from distance. There is wickedness there. I can't articulate it, but there is a profound problem with keeping your eyes on your family and on heaven to the exclusion of most everything else.

With respect to the show, I wonder how behavior would change if, instead of families going to heaven together, whole states went to heaven together.

[ June 14, 2007, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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katharina
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I think your model of someone caring more about strangers than his family is deeply flawed as well.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
She had to agree to it, but in practice, if she didn't agree to it, then she would be "unreasonable" or unfaithful and they would go ahead anyway.

So, basically, she had the choice to agree or to have it happen without her agreement.

Are you sure this is true universally or even generaly speaking? I mean I can easily see this happening but I have trouble believing that if say the prophet's wife said, "I just can't, no, I won't let you marry her," that the response would be, "Well if you are going to be unreasonable I'll marry her anyway, if you change your mind here's an invitation to the reception."
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Occasional
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BlackB, I have to side with Katharina on this one. I think the relationship between Emma and Joseph Smith was very much that kind of a situation. You can tell that Joseph Smith by his letters and attention loved Emma more than any other woman he married, but he took wives dispite her objections.
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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
I think your model of someone caring more about strangers than his family is deeply flawed as well.
I guess it's a matter of picking your poisons and striking a balance. While they are both pious and family oriented, there is some decent quality Barb has that Bill lacks.
_____
Depending with whom you talk, the basic unit of society is the individual, or the family, or the community, or the state. I think the problem with all of those options is that there may not be a basic unit of society.

[ June 14, 2007, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
BlackB, I have to side with Katharina on this one. I think the relationship between Emma and Joseph Smith was very much that kind of a situation. You can tell that Joseph Smith by his letters and attention loved Emma more than any other woman he married, but he took wives dispite her objections.

That is not my understanding of the situation. I was under the impression she gave consent but resented doing so in her heart. You may disagree with it but I see it more as God commanding Joseph to take wives, Emma being spiritual and after discussing it with Joseph acknowledged at as God, but still was very unhappy with the arrangement. She also resented that he had to spend so much time being the prophet instead of "Her husband." She let that disent and even hate sink in and overtime she persuaded herself that polygamy was not even Smith's idea but Brigham Young's.
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steven
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I marvel that there is this huge religion right here in the US and I know so little about it. I have no more knowledge of what BB and kat are arguing about than I have of what two aliens on some other planet could be talking about. That's actually kind of funny.

If I catch rivka and tante discussing some arcane point of OT dietary law, I have a chance of getting what points they are making, and having some thoughts. I've glanced over Leviticus a time or two.

Discussions about Joseph Smith and whether or not polygamy was his idea, and what his wife thought about it....I hope nobody expects me to have opinions on it.

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Amanecer
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quote:
"The only reason I exclude Bill is that he's so ultimately concerned about/ defined by caring for his family that he doesn't really have any time for himself"

That is interesting, because I see him as completely and utterly selfish.

He reminds me of a character in a novel, a Dickens novel, maybe, and I can't quite place it. One of those people who is "good" and just so boring and harmful to those closest to him.

In a somewhat similar, although not remotely identical, vein of what Irami said, I don't think that making your family the center of your life necessarily makes you selfless. I would agree that Bill is very selfish. He cares about his family and wants what is best for them, but for the most part he wants it on his terms. He has an image of how things should be and that's what he's working towards. Barb, on the other, is filled with compassion and love for each member of the family. She's willing to adjust her vision of how things should be in order to bring happiness to others. Barb's sacrifices are centered on others' happiness. Bill's are ultimately centered on his own.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
BlackB, I have to side with Katharina on this one. I think the relationship between Emma and Joseph Smith was very much that kind of a situation. You can tell that Joseph Smith by his letters and attention loved Emma more than any other woman he married, but he took wives dispite her objections.

That would make me so mad!
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