posted
"I would agree that Bill is very selfish. He cares about his family and wants what is best for them, but for the most part he wants it on his terms. He has an image of how things should be and that's what he's working towards. Barb, on the other, is filled with compassion and love for each member of the family. She's willing to adjust her vision of how things should be in order to bring happiness to others. Barb's sacrifices are centered on others' happiness. Bill's are ultimately centered on his own."
Yes, Amancer, that is what I meant, but you said it much more clearly.
He "looks good," and she is good(even though she bugs me) It is almost like he is saying, "Make it so" to her. When she is publicly humiliated, and then questions her whole life, I felt his reaction was ridiculous. I really wanted her to leave.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: BlackB, I have to side with Katharina on this one. I think the relationship between Emma and Joseph Smith was very much that kind of a situation. You can tell that Joseph Smith by his letters and attention loved Emma more than any other woman he married, but he took wives dispite her objections.
That would make me so mad!
Mad at your husband or mad at God?
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And that's why the most important part of my thinking I could do it is that I trust my husband. I trust that he WOULDN'T decide I was being "unreasonable", as some husbands definitely did. It was a calling extended more to a class of men than a specific person, in many cases. If my husband was in the group asked to do it, I trust that he WOULD say "no" if I said "no"-- and that's why I would be willing to do it.
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posted
I really don't understand any sort of reasoning that would go along with God wanting polygamy to happen. What have the reasons been, when such has been the case?
posted
Do most LDS practitioners harbor semi-secret "what if" scenarios about polygamy? I mean, I could totally see a 15-year-old being really into the idea, but I just don't see why adults would think it a good idea. If I brought the idea up to my wife, she'd probably castrate me on the spot.
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I really don't understand any sort of reasoning that would go along with God wanting polygamy to happen. What have the reasons been, when such has been the case?
-pH
Speaking from a historical/scientific standpoint, not a religious one, I believe it would have to be a matter of needing bodies. Women can only have a child a year, whereas men can father many children a day.
God needs followers. God says, "Procreate!"
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:I just don't see why adults would think it a good idea.
I wasn't going to participate in this thread, since I don't watch TV, and have no desire to watch the referenced program. And, I have related this personal reference before. But, it does give one answer for some Mormons who were not in positions of leadership or influence. Great-Grandpa Miller married his childhood sweetheart in Denmark prior to emigrating to Utah. Her sister emigrated at the same time. The two sisters talked Grandpa into marrying the sister. The two of them had a close friend from the same island, who had not married and had few prospects. They talked Grandpa into marrying her too. The four of them evidently got along very well for life. Much later,there was a young girl from the same island, speaking the same dialect, who had been raped on the boat over and arrived in Utah pregnant and without means or friends. Grandpa was asked by the local Church authorities to marry her and give her and the child a home. She was much younger than the other wives and they never liked her very much. She died young and is not buried in the family plot. However, as a boy my father remembers her grave being decorated on Memorial day like the others.
posted
I like the scenes between Joe and Barb. In Joe, you can see his long suffering and addiction, and Barb has been through cancer and polygamy. They both embrace their pasts with their eyes wide open, and look forward timidly into the future. It's a sweetness between them.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Wouldn't that make him wrong for obeying his wife instead of obeying God?
("Probably both" is a pretty reasonable answer given the situation.)
Yes, it would. Which is why I would say yes.
But I'd have to know that he would respect my wishes if I said no, even if it meant disobeying God, before I'd know that I could say yes.
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posted
Elizabeth, I personally think that answer *is* the answer. Some have tried to prove by statistics that isn't the case, but the Scriptures seem to always connect it to having more children. Even the Scripture about instituting polygamy says it is for "increase of glory" for at least the next life.
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posted
I was hesitant to watch this show at first because I was worried about the effect it would have on the mainstream Mormon population (yes, I know they go out of their way to point out that these people are not mainstream, but...). It's the same reason I hate Will and Grace - I would hate for people to think that Grace is a typical Jewish woman. I find her abhorrant and not like me in any way. Anyway, Andrew decided to watch, so I ended up watching, too.
Barb is actually my least favorite character. I find it very hard to sympathize with her. I feel that she brought her children into a difficult lifestyle (that involves lying, hiding, and fear of persecution) for something that she doesn't wholly believe in. Also, she should have done everything she could to get Rhonda away from Roman and Juniper Creek. She knew it wasn't right, but she let them take her back.
Nikki is actually my favorite character and I have the most sympathy for her. It was pretty strongly implied that she was molested by Roman and she grew up in a highly disfunctional, highly isolated household. Also I like that she's good with tools.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I'm not unsympathetic to your assessment of Barb. We don't know what happened when she was sick. I think, but I could be mistaken, when Barb got sick, Roman reached out to pay for the medical bills and stake Bill's store, under the right light, it could very well appear as a revelation for Bill to believe in the principle. The man's wife was dying. Nikki sincerely prayed for Barb's health, and so Barb tried to give it a go to keep what's left of her family together. It's hard on the kids, but so is breaking up a family and Bill is a true believer, so what are you going to do? I imagine that in some families, the odd agnostic spouse goes to church all of the time, even when he/she don't believe, for the sake of the devout spouse and to put up a united front for the kids. Triplehorn is acting very well, I respect Barb as a character, I do think that Sarah has a complicated adolescence(the actress is doing a great job, as is her friend.)
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and let them come to their own conclusions. If they are stupid enough to think Debra Messing, a sitcom character, is a typical Jewish woman, then I don't have much hope for their general intellect.
The same with this show. The people who watch it who come to conclusions about Mormons based on these characters want to have those opinions, or already had them in the first place.
I have noticed that most unthoughtful(OK, dim) people stay away from the these types of HBO shows.
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posted
One thing to remember is that Bill has been through the ringer, too. He was abandoned as a young teen by his father, rejected his beliefs as part of of rejecting his family and his rough childhood, and finally, when he thought his wife was dying, began to believe again what he had been taught as a child.
I'm sure that there were monetary motives mixed in there as well, but there was also a pretty intense mindgame played on him for most of his life.
Edit: also, his obsession with taking care of his family can be seen as the pendulum swinging far past the anti-care he received from his family. None of this excuses anything bad he might have done, but it makes it far more understandable.
I had a similar revelation after seeing Casino Royale ***SPOILERS AHEAD***. I had read the book, but I never connected the first woman Bond loved after his wife died betraying him with his misogyny. But it's very clear to me now - the last line of the book ("The bitch is dead") is setting a tone for the whole series. It doesn't excuse him or make it right. It just makes him less of a cartoonish cutout on the subject.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I watched the pilot and it didn't really interest me much, but I think it's good that it brings up an issue people are uncomfortable talking about, and even more so, an issue that deals with the past traditions of a religion many people follow. Think of it this way: it's an opportunity to educate. Instead of panicking every time this subject is brought up in mainstream media for fear of it reopening old wounds, instead use it as an opportunity to educate people about why those stereotypes aren't true. You can't expect people to change their views unless you get a dialogue started, and you can't start a dialogue if you try to avoid or downplay the issue.
This is true for any minority, or even majority, that faces stereotypes. Instead of being offended and angrily trying to keep the subject from getting attention (which invariably gives the subject attention), try to use it as a tool for moderation and discussion. You can't knock down walls, after all, if you don't acknowledge that they exist.
I don't know, that's just my thoughts on the whole subject. At any rate, I'll give Big Love and Entourage another go and see if I like them any better.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I really don't understand any sort of reasoning that would go along with God wanting polygamy to happen. What have the reasons been, when such has been the case?
-pH
Fragments of reasoning from the mind of BB. All of this is purely speculation on my part. None of these thoughts are held onto very tightly by myself, and I would not even say are likely true.
1: There are going to be alot more women in heaven then men.
2: Men and women alike hate being alone and prefer the company of each other.
3: The only way for every man and woman to be matched up with at least one person of the opposite sex is polygamy.
That is the best reason I can come up with. It certainly does not ring true to me that God would command polygamy to further some sort of women in a harem situation.
Honestly speaking, the idea of a group of women all at my beck and call is NOT that appealing. TBH I'd probably go crazy trying to be fair to all of them as well as listening to their needs. It is to be hoped that in heaven we can learn to love perfectly and the solution to this problem will be apparent.
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quote:Do most LDS practitioners harbor semi-secret "what if" scenarios about polygamy?
I don't know about "most", but I do know many have had to come to terms with the idea of "what if I was asked to live this?".
Nearly everyone I know who has thought about it at all, has thought about it with fear and trembling. It's one thing to come to terms with the idea of doing what God asks; but that doesn't mean it's something people are secretly hoping for. <shudder>
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posted
Can anyone tell me, since it wasn't mentioned in the first forty or so posts in this thread, whether this show is a documentary/reality TV, or fiction?
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
A number of years ago, I got the chance to work with a man who was a member of "The True and Living Church", a fundamentalist LDS group, and a practicer of polygamy. He and I got to know eachother over a number of years and a great deal of mutual respect built up. I did ask him if he practiced polygamy and why. He reasoned as follows:
1) To advance one must have a Christ-like personality. Our entire experience on earth is to experience, learn and grow. Life, death, birth, marriage, conflict and forgiveness. They are all part of the human experience.
2) Terrestrial Marriage brings difficulty. This is natural. No marriage is perfect, since it is the uniting of two imperfect people. But the struggle, mutual beliefs and common goals can enable one to not only have a successful marriage, but they are a better person for it. The marriage has, when it has been a success BECAUSE of the hard work of the members, has made both man and woman better people.
3) Celestial Marriage carries that to an even greater degree. Because now, in addition to the normal stresses of a single wife, there are the added family dynamics and conflicts. Hurting and cruelty can manifest itself, but so can kindness and forgiveness. Jealousy versus graciousness. Selflessness versus selfishness. More than that, it prepares the man for a more 'patriarchal' role. Now, he has (let's say) 3 wives to balance. He cannot give in merely out of sentiment to one, when there is conflict. He has to look out for the effects and ramifications it will have on the whole 'tribe'.
The image his description conjured up in my mind was that of a swimmer treading water, with ankle weights. It has the potential to produce growth and strength much more quickly. But it can also sink you. And he told me that anyone who wanted to practice polygamy simply for the 'extra' sex, was a 'damn fool'. A prostitute is much cheaper. He said it could break you or make you stronger.
As I said, I respected him and even met one of his wives and a couple of his younger kids (they came to work with him one day.) And I honestly believe he is a good man who tried his best and truly loved his family. I worked with him for around 5 years.
I DON'T agree with his reasoning at all. I believe that, AT BEST, polygamy was permitted, Biblically speaking, and even regulated to an extent. But it was never the intended state, nor was it promoted.
But I can, at least, understand the reasoning of him, at least. (Though not all , by any means, view or practice it this way- there are, sadly, too many men who would not 'grow' as intended, but abuse it. Power corrupts, and it is definitely a form of power).
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I'm watching this episode again without being distracted by that Chef show. Bill is not sensitive enough to his first wife's needs. Also, one thing that makes me NOT WANT TO GET MARRIED is the idea of having to go to dinner parties! The thought of having to sit with people I barely know engaging in small talk fills me with fear and absolute misery! What could be worse?! Poor Barb.
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posted
Syn: My hubby and I have never had a dinner party and probably never will. Such things are for extroverts.
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posted
Indeed. For people who like sitting around talking about nothing for several hours instead of things that are cool and important. Like music. I don't even want to think about cocktail parties...
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quote: Nikki is actually my favorite character and I have the most sympathy for her. It was pretty strongly implied that she was molested by Roman and she grew up in a highly disfunctional, highly isolated household.
Mrs. M, I do not agree with half of your statement. I never saw any evidence that Nikki was abused (at least sexually) by Roman. I have never seen her act like a child abuse victim either. She acts like a very normal adult when around her family. She talks to them when she's having problems and ask for their advice. She smiles and laughs. I don't really see that behavior when she interacts with her married family. She is negative and seems unhappy. She's happy when she is causing conflict, but I think that is just her personality.
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posted
I thought there was a creepy vibe when Bill found Nicki and Roman in her bedroom. Physically, the mother encourages Bill and Barb to smack Nicki around whenever she misbehaves.
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quote:Indeed. For people who like sitting around talking about nothing for several hours instead of things that are cool and important. Like music.
Come, now. We often have attended dinner parties where, after dinner, everyone goes and jams until late into the night. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I thought there was a creepy vibe when Bill found Nicki and Roman in her bedroom. Physically, the mother encourages Bill and Barb to smack Nicki around whenever she misbehaves.
You thought that was creepy, and I thought that that was a sweet father daughter moment. I figure that Nikki's problem is that she is the most committed to the principle, yet she is the second wife. It's as if she considers her devoutness, as shallow is it may be, to be a sign of merit over Barb. I think, however, if she had a more mature devotion, she'd accept her place as second wife and quit challenging Barb, but that's me.
That's good plotting, actually, to have the second in command be more of a believer than the first. It's guaranteed tension, and always potential for a Cain and Abel scenario.
posted
I thought it was sweet too. My parents used to come into my bedroom and set on my bed and talk to me. They did that all the way up until I moved out.
I'm not completely dismissing the possibility, I just think it unlikely because there doesn't seem any evidence to support it.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Um, he was lying on the bed and she had her face in his crotch.
Now I've been estranged from my father for most of my life and I'm Jewish (we have rules about physical contact between the sexes), so I don't have much first-hand experience, but I can't imagine that that is normal behavior for a father and daughter at any age.
It was strange that they were in a bedroom alone, with the door shut, during a child's birthday party. Even if they just wanted to talk privately, there were other places they could have gone to be alone (remember, there are 3 houses there). From the way they all reacted, it certainly seemed to me that it was more than a conversation. Also, Nicki made sure not to touch Bill when she walked past him.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
BB: Thanks for the invitation =) But I meant, we're not the type who would enjoy dinner parties because we're introverted people.
We both put up good fronts at work (He being in sales and me in IT, we have to do a LOT of dealing with people) but when we make it home, it's hard to get us back out the door.
Plus I'm pretty durn shy...
...
As for Nikki, I never got a molestation vibe off her. I assumed her head on Roman's lap was meant to show a father-daughter closeness. Like Nikki reverted to being a little girl when he was around and wanted him to solve all her problems.
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posted
Roman creeps me out. He looks like a weasel and he also is MARRIED TO REALLY YOUNG TEENAGE GIRLS! I hate that guy.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:That is not my understanding of the situation. I was under the impression she gave consent but resented doing so in her heart.
Black Blade,
I'm sorry, but you're really wrong about this. Emma did not know about most of the wives of Joseph, and she was devestated when she found out after the fact. In fact, there was a horribly uncomfortable Relief Society meeting where Emma shared her anger at what she thought were baseless rumors about Joseph's plural wives with what she thought were her closest friends, and several in the room were Joseph's plural wives themselves.
Clearly, Joseph was between a rock and a hard place and had to choose between the Lord's commandments/lying to his wife and appeasing his wife/defying the Lord. He chose to do as the Lord was commanding, but he did it in spite of Emma and her verocious, heartbroken opposition to the very idea.
I have sympathy for Joseph and I do believe he was doing as the Lord commanded, but I'm with Emma and would feel as she did.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:BB: Thanks for the invitation =) But I meant, we're not the type who would enjoy dinner parties because we're introverted people.
We both put up good fronts at work (He being in sales and me in IT, we have to do a LOT of dealing with people) but when we make it home, it's hard to get us back out the door.
Plus I'm pretty durn shy...
Hey I can dig that, come over and we promise not a word will be said to you or your hubby. We can all just eat our food and stare at each other until somebody breaks the silence. Whichever couple makes a noise first has to invite the others over for the next party, ad infinitum Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:That is not my understanding of the situation. I was under the impression she gave consent but resented doing so in her heart.
Black Blade,
I'm sorry, but you're really wrong about this. Emma did not know about most of the wives of Joseph, and she was devestated when she found out after the fact. In fact, there was a horribly uncomfortable Relief Society meeting where Emma shared her anger at what she thought were baseless rumors about Joseph's plural wives with what she thought were her closest friends, and several in the room were Joseph's plural wives themselves.
Clearly, Joseph was between a rock and a hard place and had to choose between the Lord's commandments/lying to his wife and appeasing his wife/defying the Lord. He chose to do as the Lord was commanding, but he did it in spite of Emma and her verocious, heartbroken opposition to the very idea.
I have sympathy for Joseph and I do believe he was doing as the Lord commanded, but I'm with Emma and would feel as she did.
We will have to agree to disagree then, I've read quite a bit on the topic, Ill have to grab my copy of Rough Stone Rolling and try to read up on it again.
I must confess though I am very guarded in taking what Emma said about polygamy at face value.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
We are not agreeing to disagree - this isn't an opinion thing. You're wrong in thinking that Emma knew all along and agreed to it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Katharina is correct by my understanding, but I think that BlackBlade is partially correct as well. Emma found out many years after Joseph started marrying additional wives. But at one point she did consent to it, and I believe even attended the ceremony of one or two of Joseph's new wives. Later in her life, she claimed that Joseph never practiced polygamy.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Heh. Obviously, somewhere there is a fact - the truth about whether Emma knew or not, and whether she agreed to it or not. But for us, knowing what someone else knew and how they felt - especially when that person is dead and we can't ask them - is difficult, and different opinions can be formed on whether we choose to believe source A or source B.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
What source are you claiming to support that Emma was always aware of her husband's other wives? So far as I'm aware, this isn't disputed by any historians. I'd be curious to see what sources you feel refute this.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Still, you can't fabricate something and claim it happened because we can't trust the evidence to the contrary.
I don't think Black Blade did that. I do, however, think there is, in general, a serious sugar-coating of the history of polygamy and BB's impression that Emma was in on it from the beginning comes from that. It was horribly hard and the Nauvoo years tore up marriages and testimonies as surely as it created others. I don't think it benefits us to pretend that didn't happen.
*shrug* I don't have any sources on me, am at work, and can't look right now, but I'll post tonight or tomorrow.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Still, you can't fabricate something and claim it happened because we can't trust the evidence to the contrary.
I don't think Black Blade did that. I do, however, think there is, in general, a serious sugar-coating of the history of polygamy and BB's impression that Emma was in on it from the beginning comes from that. It was horribly hard and the Nauvoo years tore up marriages and testimonies as surely as it created others. I don't think it benefits us to pretend that didn't happen.
*shrug* I don't have any sources on me, am at work, and can't look right now, but I'll post tonight or tomorrow.
Look I clearly have my recollection of what I have read on the subject just as you have yours. We have both independantly read material on the subject. I am merely saying that what you wrote is not as I understood it to be. You may very well be right, and you are right to be confident in your own interpretation of the evidence.
Look there are specifics to the situation I do not think any historian can put their fingers on. In the general sense this is how I believe things were.
By Emma being, "in on it" I do not neccesarily mean she was present at every ceremony and gave the OK. I am pretty sure she said OK to Joseph's second wife and severely resented it afterwards. By wife three or four she was extremely angry at the whole concept and believed it to be a system devised to give men harems for no good reason but sex. She frequently voiced these opinions to Joseph and would get extremely upset when he shacked up with any of his other wives for the night. It then behooved Joseph to not be as open with his activities with other wives, as Emma was unstable in how she handled the situation. One day she'd be completely OK with everything and the next extremely hostile.
Look I am going back to read up on it, I am quite capable of admitting to having an imperfect memory. Or being flat out wrong in my perception of a books materials.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I do need to go and look at various sources. I think you're wrong about Emma knowing about it and ever consenting to it, though.
She may have occasionaly, you know, tolerated it, but that isn't the same.
quote: It then behooved Joseph to not be as open with his activities with other wives, as Emma was unstable in how she handled the situation. One day she'd be completely OK with everything and the next extremely hostile.
I have to tell you, I really hate this sentence. Her husband was sleeping other women. I doubt she was ever "completely okay", and getting wildly angry does NOT make her unstable. In fact, I think labelling her as being unstable because she was angry at the continued betrayal is doing her and reality a disservice. It's really sexist. She wasn't flipping out because he didn't pick up the dry cleaning. She was angry because he was sleeping with other women and it wasn't going to change.
Of course, if you can claim she's being "unstable", then you don't have to take her and her objections seriously.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Mrs. M, interesting. I don't remember that detail about the scene. I will have to go back and watch it.
I have to say, Jewish rules or not, it's not usually customary to put your head in your father's lap, as an adult, that is.
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posted
My thoughts on that scene were that the family has very unusual dynamics. I don't think Nikki was abused. I do think that the only way Roman knows how to show affection to females is not a normal way to show affection between daughters and fathers. I also agree with whomever said Nikki reverts to acting like a child around her father.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:I have to tell you, I really hate this sentence. Her husband was sleeping other women. I doubt she was ever "completely okay", and getting wildly angry does NOT make her unstable. In fact, I think labelling her as being unstable because she was angry at the continued betrayal is doing her and reality a disservice. It's really sexist. She wasn't flipping out because he didn't pick up the dry cleaning. She was angry because he was sleeping with other women and it wasn't going to change.
I'm just calling it how I see it. I know I sound like I have no empathy for Emma Smith, I honestly do. But I think critics of polygamy often have little to no sympathy for Joseph. It's so easy to just think, "Well Smith was a horny man so of course polygamy was appealing to him." The part where an angel appeared to Smith and told him, "Reveal this principle or you will be removed from your place," gets little to no attention in the matter.
When I say that Emma was unstable I don't mean crazy, I mean she would come to Joseph one day and say in effect, "I've been praying about this, as it has been eating me up inside, and God gave me peace last night." Only to later say, "I don't believe this is of God anymore." She did ultimately say in effect after Joseph's death, "Joseph Smith never believed in Polygamy it was all made up by Sidney Rigdon or Brigham Young." Maybe she told Joseph what he wanted to hear, and maybe she actually went against what God actually told her, who can know but Emma herself?
Again I completely sympathize with Emma, as I said before if polygamy came back I don't think I would EVER participate in it unless commanded to do so by God himself, or if both me and my wife agreed to it. Again I just get frustrated when polygamy is presented as a sort of, "Harems in colonial America," concept. I honestly believe that Smith and Brigham young and many of those men had just as hard a time accepting polygamy as they did the move west.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Amancer's post of 12:14 is essentially accurate. Indeed, Section 132 of the D&C was given in order to induce Emma into accepting polygamy. Apparently, it worked for a time. King and Newell, in their still standard biography of Emma, make a fairly strong case that she participated in several of Joseph's later plural weddings.
However, she found out about polygamy late, and was never entirely reconciled to it. There's lots of stories floating around about it - the famous "pushing Eliza down the stairs" incident (which doesn't seem to have any primary source support); Brigham Young's (who hated Emma) accusation that she tried to poison Joseph (which a couple of primary sources lend some credence to). And, after Brigham and his followers left Nauvoo, she taught Joseph III that his father never engaged in the practice.
Fascinating, tragic figure.
BB - I appreciate your willingness to think about both sides; however, I think it's doubtful Emma's reversals were as dramatic as you depict. I doubt she ever felt she had a 'testimony' of polygamy; rather, she accepted it only grudgingly because she believed Joseph was a prophet and she loved him. She was never happy about it.
For what it's worth, I certainly agree that polygamy did not have roots in Joseph's horniness. However, I'm not sure believing that is incompatible with Emma being horrified by it.
By the way, Brigham Young hated the idea when he first heard of it, as did Hyrum. They both swallowed their nausea, however. Sidney Rigdon never accepted it - he and Joseph had a titanic fight after Joseph proposed to Rigdon's daughter without warning Sidney first (Nancy Rigdon turned him down). That's why Joseph never invited the Rigdon family to be endowed.
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