FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Anyone see Big Love (Page 5)

  This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   
Author Topic: Anyone see Big Love
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by MattB:
Amancer's post of 12:14 is essentially accurate. Indeed, Section 132 of the D&C was given in order to induce Emma into accepting polygamy. Apparently, it worked for a time. King and Newell, in their still standard biography of Emma, make a fairly strong case that she participated in several of Joseph's later plural weddings.

However, she found out about polygamy late, and was never entirely reconciled to it. There's lots of stories floating around about it - the famous "pushing Eliza down the stairs" incident (which doesn't seem to have any primary source support); Brigham Young's (who hated Emma) accusation that she tried to poison Joseph (which a couple of primary sources lend some credence to). And, after Brigham and his followers left Nauvoo, she taught Joseph III that his father never engaged in the practice.

Fascinating, tragic figure.


BB - I appreciate your willingness to think about both sides; however, I think it's doubtful Emma's reversals were as dramatic as you depict. I doubt she ever felt she had a 'testimony' of polygamy; rather, she accepted it only grudgingly because she believed Joseph was a prophet and she loved him. She was never happy about it.

For what it's worth, I certainly agree that polygamy did not have roots in Joseph's horniness. However, I'm not sure believing that is incompatible with Emma being horrified by it.

By the way, Brigham Young hated the idea when he first heard of it, as did Hyrum. They both swallowed their nausea, however. Sidney Rigdon never accepted it - he and Joseph had a titanic fight after Joseph proposed to Rigdon's daughter without warning Sidney first (Nancy Rigdon turned him down). That's why Joseph never invited the Rigdon family to be endowed.

Thanks, Matt. [Smile] I was under the impression that she was never okay with it, but it sounds like she accepted it as inevitable at least for a little while (although that's not the same as being at peace).
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
MattB: Thanks for the extended post, much of what you say sounds about right, and that which I am not certain is certainly plausible if not consistant with what I already knew about those involved.

calling Emma a facinating, tragic figure is exactly as I would describe her.

quote:
For what it's worth, I certainly agree that polygamy did not have roots in Joseph's horniness. However, I'm not sure believing that is incompatible with Emma being horrified by it.

Completely agree.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
What's the rest of the story? What did Emma and her son do after the main group moved westward?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Occasional
Member
Member # 5860

 - posted      Profile for Occasional   Email Occasional         Edit/Delete Post 
Emma got remarried to a man completely opposite of Joseph Smith; non-spiritual and a bit of a bar hopper. However, both of them seemed to have a good relationship. She helped Joseph Smith's mother (who stayed behind for health reasons) until she died.

Joseph Smith III, with the urging of some aquantances of Joseph Smith Jr., organized the Reorganized LDS Church (now called "Community of Christ). He remained the President of that Church until he died.

Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artemisia Tridentata
Member
Member # 8746

 - posted      Profile for Artemisia Tridentata   Email Artemisia Tridentata         Edit/Delete Post 
Emma and her children stayed in Nauvoo. She re-married a local farmer named Louis Bidamon. He and Emma raised the children and attempted to keep the Smith family business going. She died in 1879 and never was reconciled with the "Utah Church"
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artemisia Tridentata
Member
Member # 8746

 - posted      Profile for Artemisia Tridentata   Email Artemisia Tridentata         Edit/Delete Post 
Here is a link with a quick history. Just scroll down to "later years in Nauvoo" for the rest of the story.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
Hmm. The wiki you linked to said Joseph Smith, Jr. died of gunshot wounds. I thought he died in the fire.

Also, did he have children with any of his other wives?

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JennaDean
Member
Member # 8816

 - posted      Profile for JennaDean   Email JennaDean         Edit/Delete Post 
He was shot and fell out the window of his jail cell.

Whether he had children with other wives is difficult to prove, although there are those who said they were his children. They went by other names.

Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Occasional
Member
Member # 5860

 - posted      Profile for Occasional   Email Occasional         Edit/Delete Post 
What fire? The Nauvoo Temple fire? That was started years after his death and after the majority of LDS had started for Utah. Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post 
Dood
Nikki is growing on me.
She's so cool! Barb was like, "You can't do that, bad Nikki."
And she likes tools.
She rocks!

But she's still stupid for using credit cards too much.

*Has to try not to buy Tori Amos's new cd with my c card I have not activated.

Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elizabeth
Member
Member # 5218

 - posted      Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth         Edit/Delete Post 
Syn, I swear I read this exact post before. Did I?

Margene is the one growing on me. She cracks me up. I think we will see some interesting plot twists because of her. I am definitely thinking a tryst with her "son." (Barb's oldest boy)

Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
"What fire?"

I thought there was a fire at the jail the day he died.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
No. No fire at the jail.

Joseph died at the window in a rain of gunfire and fell out the window. Hyrum, his brother, was shot and died in the room. John Taylor and...theotherguy...were shot but survived.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JennaDean
Member
Member # 8816

 - posted      Profile for JennaDean   Email JennaDean         Edit/Delete Post 
Willard Richards ... IIRC.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
Willard Richards was unhurt.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Occasional
Member
Member # 5860

 - posted      Profile for Occasional   Email Occasional         Edit/Delete Post 
"Joseph died at the window in a rain of gunfire and fell out the window."

Actually, more like tried to jump out of the window, although that is arguable. Considering how high up and small the window was (I have been there) I will go with jumped.

Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
I have been there as well. Whatever the reason for the defenestration, he didn't die in the room.

Willard Richards! That's right. We were just talking about Willard being an oh-so-Mormon name - apparently Mitt Romney's first name is Willard. I'd go by Mitt too.

W. Richards wasn't hit at all? Clearly all the hurt-but-not-dead stories I am thinking of belong to John Taylor.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elizabeth
Member
Member # 5218

 - posted      Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
No. No fire at the jail.

Joseph died at the window in a rain of gunfire and fell out the window. Hyrum, his brother, was shot and died in the room. John Taylor and...theotherguy...were shot but survived.

Boy, I missed more episodes than I was aware I had missed!
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
From Wikipedia:

Richards was incarcerated in Carthage Jail with Joseph Smith, Jr., Hyrum Smith and John Taylor on the 27th of June 1844 when the jail was attacked by a mob and the LDS prophet and his brother were murdered. Taylor was shot four times and severely injured, but survived the attack. Richards was unhurt and so supervised the removal of Taylor and the bodies. His first-hand account of the event was published in the "Times and Seasons," Vol.5, No.14, (1. Aug. 1844), titled, "Two Minutes in Jail."

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
Willard Richards is commonly said to have escaped the encounter, "without so much as a hole in his robe."

I recall there being a prophecy about that but I cannot be certain.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Occasional
Member
Member # 5860

 - posted      Profile for Occasional   Email Occasional         Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Elizabeth, it was a rather amazing episode.

Oh, I mean . . . yea, a couple different topics going on. One about the show, and another about real history.

Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JennaDean
Member
Member # 8816

 - posted      Profile for JennaDean   Email JennaDean         Edit/Delete Post 
Wait, I thought Willard Richards was the one who was shot at but the bullet got stopped by a watch in his pocket, so he wasn't hurt.

Or was that John Taylor? I know he was hurt - but was his life spared because of the watch in the pocket that saved his life from "that" bullet?

Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattB
Member
Member # 1116

 - posted      Profile for MattB   Email MattB         Edit/Delete Post 
What happened in the room:

The four men present were Joseph, Hyrum, John Taylor, and Willard Richards. Hyrum was then presiding patriarch and associate president, Taylor and Richards were apostles.

The mob came up the stairs; the Smith brothers and Richards tried to hold the door shut, but failed. The first volley of shots went through the oak door; Hyrum was hit just to the side of the nose and collapsed. Joseph knelt beside him; the door was forced open and Richards was trapped behind it - thus, never hit. Joseph then stood and unloaded his revolver into the mob, hitting several. He then ran for the window. John Taylor began laying about him with a cane. The second volley of shots hit Joseph as he went through the glass; Taylor was also hit several times, but his large pocketwatch stopped the most dangerous bullet.

Joseph had a couple of bullets in him when he went out the window; the mob turned and went back down the stairs.

The room was on the second floor. Joseph leaped through the window crying "Oh, Lord, my God," which is the opening line of the Masonic cry of distress, though Joseph apparently never said the second part: "Is there no help for the widow's son?" He was not quite dead when he hit the ground. He leaned up against a well in the yard, and died there.

Posts: 794 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
Religious tolerance wasn't, then, what it is today.

Now some Hatracker will try and prove me wrong.

It'll happen within 15 minutes after this post.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Occasional
Member
Member # 5860

 - posted      Profile for Occasional   Email Occasional         Edit/Delete Post 
Steven, I personally think that law and order isn't the same today as it was back then. As for religious intolerance, it is just better kept in check. It might be better now than then.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artemisia Tridentata
Member
Member # 8746

 - posted      Profile for Artemisia Tridentata   Email Artemisia Tridentata         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Religious tolerance wasn't, then, what it is today
Neither is the National Guard. The shooters were the Carthage Greys, a local militia unit, under the command of a couple of evangalical ministers.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Occasional
Member
Member # 5860

 - posted      Profile for Occasional   Email Occasional         Edit/Delete Post 
"evangalical ministers." I don't think that term is historically true. Many were very mainstream Christian.

Edit Note: the event occured June 27, 1844.

Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
Was "evangelical" as we understand it now even a thing back in 1846? I thought what we know as the present-day evangelical movement didn't really get going until the late 1800s.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
If I remember my history correctly, there have been several periods of greater fervency since the late 1700s.

You don't need law and order if you already have religious tolerance. Teach someone well when they are young, and you don't have to buy a burglar alarm and hire extra police. But, hey, that's not the point of this thread. Forgive me for derailing.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattB
Member
Member # 1116

 - posted      Profile for MattB   Email MattB         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The shooters were the Carthage Greys, a local militia unit, under the command of a couple of evangalical ministers.
This is inaccurate. The mob was largely, but not exclusively, made up of Greys; however, it was not "commanded" by evangelical ministers. Indeed, it's still unclear who exactly was involved, but there was only one minister among those accused, Levi Williams, a lay, part-time Baptist preacher and a fulltime farmer. Characterizing it as an evangelical plot is incorrect. Indeed, the mob was not really functioning "under the orders" of anyone - Governor Ford had left the Greys to guard the Smiths, but their ranks were rife with members suspicious of Mormons, and the mob action had no official sanction.

quote:
"evangalical ministers." I don't think that term is historically true. Many were very mainstream Christian.
By this point in American history, evangelical was mainstream. By 1852, there were more members of either evangelical denominations that had appeared in the First Great Awakening (like the Baptists and Methodists) or evangelical wings of older denominations like the Presbyterians and Congregationalists than voted in that year's presidential election. About one out of every five Americans was an evangelical - nearly five million out of a population of 27 million.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artemisia Tridentata
Member
Member # 8746

 - posted      Profile for Artemisia Tridentata   Email Artemisia Tridentata         Edit/Delete Post 
I didn't use the term "evangalical plot". I was refering more to the conduct of a milita that was "called out" by civil authority, but not commanded by a regularly commissioned officer corps like they are today. The "officers" tended to be those who talked the loudest. (They were elected, usually by voice vote or aclamation.) But, I believe it was clear that the event was planned, coordinated and communicated in advance, hence my use of the phrase "under orders".

[ June 19, 2007, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Artemisia Tridentata ]

Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Cashew
Member
Member # 6023

 - posted      Profile for Cashew   Email Cashew         Edit/Delete Post 
Originally posted by MattB:
"Hyrum was hit just to the side of the nose and collapsed"

You can see the entry point of the musket ball and resultant damaged flesh in Hyrum's death mask in the church museum in SLC. Quite moving, I found, seeing that.

Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elizabeth
Member
Member # 5218

 - posted      Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
Sorry Elizabeth, it was a rather amazing episode.

Oh, I mean . . . yea, a couple different topics going on. One about the show, and another about real history.

Occasional, I was being a smart-a**.

In fact, though, it proves the point that we fifth grade teachers make all the time: "You can;t make this (stuff) up."

Truly, the more fiction I read and watch, the more I realize that real life is far more dramatic.

This story is fascinating and heartbreakingly sad to learn about.

Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dagonee
Member
Member # 5818

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Bill is going to spend the rest of his life having kids and committing minor sins of commission and omission to keep those kids fed and happy. The guy is worried about earning daily bread for his family and gaining entrance into the celestial kingdom, and since his family is so big, he doesn't spend any effort worrying about anything else.
Rhonda and Niki are the other two who have left the compound now, and both have serious issues trusting anyone - and, consequently, of being worthy of trust from anyone.

After this episode, I'm much more interested in seeing how the compound affects those who leave it. Bill's obsession with providing for his family is the extreme opposite of being abandoned in the name of maintaining the community, which is what happened to him as a young boy. He was literally left on a street corner.

Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
MattB: Some of the specifics don't seem to really mesh with accounts I have heard of Joseph Smith's death. But the general feel of your post seems correct.

1: Joseph Smith saying, "Oh Lord My God." Could be the opening lines of a masonic distress, but it could also be the opening lines of just about any Christian's prayer.

2: I do not believe Joseph Smith leaned up against a well and died, he fell from the second story window of the prison and landed who knows how ungracefully, its doubtful he landed on his feet. There were many men outside firing guns as well its doubtful he got up and walked over to a well, leaned against it and died. More likely he died as he was falling if not on impact, IF not when the mob fired bullets into his body repeatedly to make sure the deed was done.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Cashew
Member
Member # 6023

 - posted      Profile for Cashew   Email Cashew         Edit/Delete Post 
He didn't get up and walk over to the well, he lay dying from gunshot wounds where he had landed, was hauled over to the side of the well where he was then shot to death.
There was a report from someone in the mob that there was an attempt to cut off his head for the bounty, but there was a call of, "The Mormons are coming", meaning the Nauvoo Militia, and the crowd melted away. The Nauvoo Miltia was never activated however.
There was also a report I read in Fawn Brodie's book (also from a mob member) that just as the attempt was made to behead Joseph a ray of light broke through the clouds and shone on his body, scaring the 'beheader' off. I've never read anything about that in any Church literature about the assassinaton, so I guess it's apocryphal, but I've seen an engraving depicting it, and both the account and engraving were in Brodie's book, generally considered anti.

(Edit for clarity)

Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2