quote:How can tea be not okay except for health reasons? What logic is that? You can't have it because God told you not to, unless a doctor said you had to drink it, then it's okay.
How many things can you think of that are DEFINITELY detrimental to your health (scientifically proven things), but may be necessary for you to ingest/inject in order to get rid of something deadly,like say, cancer?
The modern intepretation of the intent of the Word of Wisdom is to keep our bodies and minds free of things that are addictive or generally unhealthful. If you want to point out hypocrisy of the Saints, you'd fare much better pointing out the average Mormon's meat consumption is far above 'sparingly.'
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: mr_porteiro_head, what about coffee mixed in baked goods? I had to make a cross-country road trip once, and needed something to help keep me awake, so I baked some cup cakes using flour and instant coffee powder. It actually tasted pretty good--make it taste like graham. (I hope I'm not coaching Mormons on how to cheat! )
I personally would never eat anything like that. Like I said earlier, I interpret that part of the Word of Wisdom as "no coffee, no tea". Since there's coffee in those cupcakes, I wouldn't eat them.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: How many things can you think of that are DEFINITELY detrimental to your health (scientifically proven things), but may be necessary for you to ingest/inject in order to get rid of something deadly,like say, cancer?
I would agree with your point if tea were actually bad for ones health. I have seen no studies showing that tea is bad, nor links in this thread to anything of that nature. All I have seen is purely anecdotal and not scientific in any way. So what is your point, exactly?
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
But some of us don't consume it for religious reasons. So why does it matter whether it's proven bad for your health or not? It's irrelevant whether there is proof that it is bad for us or not. It's like telling a Jewish person that there's no good reason they shouldn't eat pork. It's disrespectful to their beliefs.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Yes, but a Jewish person isn't going to eat pork if a Doctor tells them to.
No, but in a life-or-death situation (say, during the Holocaust when people were starving to death) saving of a life takes precedence over almost all other laws, including dietary ones. There are few exceptions, and a Jewish person would eat pork to save his life if he were starving. At least, that is my understanding (rivka or someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also, we have built-in exceptions to our rules-- "except in times of famine" occurs more than once. That's not saying that we should break them whenever we see fit, but it does set a precedent for making an informed, prayerful decision as to when something else overrides the need to follow the Word of Wisdom.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You're comparing being prescribed herbal tea for something like menstrual cramps or pregnancy pains to the Holocaust? Doesn't that break Godwin's law in some indirect fashion?
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I'm saying that there are exceptions relating to life or health. That was the first thing that came to mind, I know instances of that occurred.
If you prefer, upon more reflection, I think that medications that contain non-kosher ingredients can be taken if no alternative is available and they are necessary to preserving life or health. (Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
And I said nothing about menstrual cramps or pregnancy pains-- the only specific example I gave was tea being used to treat a life-threatening condition. Caffeine, as has already been established, is not forbidden. So it's fine to take that for your menstrual cramps.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
Early penicillin was derived from bread and was therefore chametz (leaven). Generally, leaven is forbidden on Passover, but there was no question the year of the scarlet fever epidemic that overlapped with Pesach whether people would take penicillin. (I believe this was during the '50s? '40s?)
A diabetic or someone else with suddenly low blood sugar who finds themselves with no fast enough kosher food alternatives could eat whatever was necessary -- pork included.
During the 1800s, when the Russian Czar forcibly rounded up Jewish boys and drafted them (see wikipedia's entry on cantonists), the boys had the choice to eat non-kosher food or die. Most chose life -- as well they should.
And for a less dramatic example . . . I take gelcaps. Gelcaps are made with gelatin, which is rarely kosher. However, the general rule with medications is that any needed medication (and "needed" can be defined a few ways) that is not available in an equivalent kosher version may be taken in a non-kosher version -- as long as it is clearly medicinal. (Thus, tablets which are chewed are more problematic, as they are consumed like food.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Interesting. <scratches beard> I guess my lack of understanding stems from the fact that I grew up with religious beliefs without dietary restrictions with the exception of liquor, which can certainly be shown to have very few health benefits, though I've left those beliefs far behind.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
There are Jews that eat at different levels of kosher. Is that an inconsistency? In this particular religion (LDS) the members are left to decide for themselves how to follow "the rules." There are inconsistencies from person to person depending on what they believe the WoW is saying.
If a person believes they are to avoid those substances because of the potentially addictive effects, they might use it medicinally just as they might take any other potentially addictive substance medicinally.
I am trying to live the spirit of the WoW better by not taking in sugar in large amounts because I personally I find it to be addictive. I am trying to follow it in spirit more in other ways as well. I wouldn't expect another person to follow it in exact same ways as me.
What you find inconsistent, another person may find consistent. Comparing it to Jewish practices doesn't make sense.
Edit: I guess my response is a bit late. That's what happens when your sister calls long distance in the middle of writing a post. ^_^
posted
Personally, I've always liked the story of Joseph Smith's leg operation as a young boy. He refused alcohol to dull the pain, and that was before he was even a prophet. Sure, there may be times when it's necessary to violate the word of wisdom, but it is not something to do lightly, I believe.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:He refused alcohol to dull the pain, and that was before he was even a prophet.
I've grown to dislike that story. Perhaps because of the smarmy way it's always related.
Little Joseph: No, sir, I shall not let pass even a drop of alcohol across my lips. But if my honored Father will hold me, I shall be able to withstand the agony.
The story has always seemed to me to suffer from mythical propagandizing. Sure he refused the alcohol-- but if I was Joseph Smith, Sr., I would have MADE him take the brandy and that's all there is to it.
quote:I have seen no studies showing that tea is bad, nor links in this thread to anything of that nature. All I have seen is purely anecdotal and not scientific in any way. So what is your point, exactly?
That it's a fairly common occurence to take something bad (or perceived as bad) in order to get rid of something worse. Nothing untoward about it.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:He refused alcohol to dull the pain, and that was before he was even a prophet.
I agree with ScottR on this issue. I don't think the Word of Wisdom is the issue here; it was decades away from being revealed at the time, and Joseph Smith was known to drink socially on occasion as an adult.
I think that the story is more indicative of the boy Joseph's need to know things for HIMSELF, rather than just going along with what other people told him. (This is one of the qualities that later led him to ask the Lord directly which church was true.) The only way for him to know, for himself, that they weren't going to cut off his leg (which was the recommended treatment) was for him to stay conscious and alert during the operation.
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
quote:A diabetic or someone else with suddenly low blood sugar who finds themselves with no fast enough kosher food alternatives could eat whatever was necessary -- pork included.
Rivka, I'm curious--after eating something non-kosher in these circumstances, is any kind of purification necessary? Does the concept of purification even exist in modern Judaism? I seem to remember that it did back when the Temple was still intact, but I don't know if the need for it continued after the Temple's destruction.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Noemon, "purification" (and I use the word simply because there does not exist an adequate word in English for the concept of taharah) was never about sin. It was (still is) about contact with death.
Eating non-kosher in such circumstances would be b'oneis, a sin that was forced upon you (lit. compelled). While one still must repent (especially if perhaps any negligence on his part led to the situation in the first place -- perhaps he should have had crackers and glucose tablets with him? ), it is far less serious a "sin" (and again, I don't like the implications of this word, but don't know a better one in English) than an intentional act would be; however, the spiritual affects of eating unkosher food would still occur.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The inconsistancy you see in Mormonism, and it can go beyond the WofW, is based on an even MORE fundimental LDS teaching: Personal Revelation. It is the idea that you shouldn't be commanded in all things before you decide to do something good. What that good is, within some guideline limits, is up to the individual through thought and prayer.
One of the most famous sayings of Joseph Smith relates to this discussion when he says "I teach correct principles and the people govern themselves." True, some take the idea too far and become rebellious of authority or over-zealous. I think, Primal Curve, you are conflating two loved and related stereotypes of religion in general. First, that it is draconian and restrictive and second that it is hypocritical. These two create a vicious cycle and an easy target. Because religion is seen as "restrictive and draconian" any deviance from exact proscription is seen as hypocritical. Since religion is "hypocritical" the teachings are seen as restrictive and draconian or people would follow them exactly. Religion, even those less open to interpretation than Mormonism, always has accepted elbow room for personal ideas of theology and behavior.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's interesting how many times I've seen Rivka explain some concept of Judaism and have to say that there isn't an English word that really captures what she's trying to say.
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of misunderstanding because of the English words that Mormons use for a concept that isn't the same concept as people normally associate with that word.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It's interesting how many times I've seen Rivka explain some concept of Judaism and have to say that there isn't an English word that really captures what she's trying to say.
*grin* Too true. Then again, why should there be? The majority of discussions on such topics has occurred in Hebrew, or maybe Yiddish (with the relevant Hebrew words used anyway). Even when discussed among English speakers, we use the Hebrew terms -- like pivotal terms from many languages, they are untranslatable because the concept does not necessarily exist in the second culture. (Which is I think what you mean when you talk about using an English word in a uniquely Mormon context.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No. After further thought, I think I am more annoyed that people are looking for reasons to make tea and coffee seem bad in order to justify their beliefs. There's no scientific basis for these justifications, there's just a lot of bull ****ting going on.
I think that's why rivka's explanation seemed so right to me. Just do it because God told you not to, not because of some poorly thought-out rationalization. Your beliefs are not justifyable in a humanistic way, so just stick with the spiritual one.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Eating pork if your life is in danger otherwise and drinking a coke because it makes your head feel better doesn't seem like a good comparison.
Morphine supposedly works good on headaches, but I'd rather just have the headache than ingest something that I have a moral or spiritual objection to, especially in the case where there's no serious health risk to leave it untreated. Obviously, if it's life or death it's a different story.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's very interesting, rivka. I'll have to dig through my religious studies textbooks and see if I can find the information on "purification" that I'm dimly recalling; it's possible that I'm misremembering or misinterpreting something, but I thought that there were "purification" rites that didn't have to do with contact with death that had to be performed under certain circumstances before entering the Temple. If I can find the information I'll post about it. My guess is that the connection with death just wasn't clear to me when I read about this, years ago, and wasn't made explicit by either my textbooks or my professors.
Out of curiosity, what are the spiritual implications of eating unkosher food?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: 1. Someone who is ill and whose life may be in danger is required by Jewish law to take even a non-kosher medication if a kosher one is not readily available. 2. One who is bedridden or noticeably not functioning due to pain or illness may take any tablet or bitter-tasting medicine. 3. One may take a medication that contains non-kosher ingredients if it is less than one-60th of the medication. If it is a liquid medication that contains glycerin (may be non-kosher), one may mix one teaspoon into two ounces of any beverage. 4. Generally, any liquid medicine that does not contain glycerin or alcohol may be used.
Note that guideline #2 would include a bad headache.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:After further thought, I think I am more annoyed that people are looking for reasons to make tea and coffee seem bad in order to justify their beliefs. There's no scientific basis for these justifications, there's just a lot of bull ****ting going on.
You may have a point about tea; I don't recall ever seeing anything that convinced me that it's dangerous to health.
I've seen reports that deal with the degradatory effects of coffee, though.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
How was rivka's explanation any different? She pretty much said the same thing. Kosher does not always mean kosher at all times and in all circumstances. I am amused that non-mormons on this post have been more hard lined about the Word of Wisdom than most Mormons are.
"There's no scientific basis for these justifications, there's just a lot of bull ****ting going on."
Statements like this seem to indicate to me that you are not listening. I think that is pretty much what most of the Mormons on this post have been saying. The teachings on the Word of Wisdom are pretty clear, but the interpretation is ambiguous. I could go with your implied idea that if it says no tea and coffee to stay away from those things without asking what is in them that would be unhealthy. In fact, I pretty much do.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The argument that gets me, kq, is where you said back on the first page that no, hot chocolate was not considered okay by everyone, and you only drink it when it's cold and you need to warm up. I understand that it's a personal choice, and that you probably have reasons that are hard to articulate. But to say that, and then to say later in the thread that you only drink hot drinks for medicinal reasons, seems kinda off. Particularly when I've heard you brag about your hot chocolate recipe many times on this forum.
I know hot chocolate makes you feel warm and cozy a lot faster than, say, putting on a sweater, and may be more economical than turning up the heat. But if you, personally, include hot chocolate in the hot drinks category then did you make the exception for when you're cold prayerfully after consulting with your bishop? I'm certainly not trying to tell you how to practice your religion, but I am saying that if you're going to put your own practices out as examples you should be aware that they look inconsistant.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I've seen reports that deal with the degradatory effects of coffee, though.
Interesting. Do you have any links? I'm not a huge coffee drinker, so I'm not worried about it destroying my body or anything, but I'm curious.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
There isn't a specific rule against caffiene or coke products. This has been stated repeatedly.
Personally, when I was eight out of the blue I decided I didn't like soda anymore, and I've consumed very little by way of carbonated beverages (with or without caffiene) since then.
I always confuse people who ask me about the Church, because I always end up saying something like "I don't drink soda because I don't like it, not because it's a commandment, dangit!"
edit: holy cow, new posts. This is nowhere near timely anymore. Sorry about that.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Oh, absolutely. If I'm able to find the relevant passages (a fair number of my religious studies books are inaccessible due to storage reasons, so I may or may not be able to find what I'm looking for) I'll be sure to include that information when I post about them.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: She pretty much said the same thing.
Pretty much.
quote:Kosher does not always mean kosher at all times and in all circumstances.
But not that. The definition of kosher never changes; preserving life and health simply trump kashrus.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, yes -- that. The difinition of the Word of Wisdom does not change, but there are times when health and safety trump it, as has been said. True, the Word of Wisdom comes nowhere near the seriousness of kosher (probably a point the non-mormons are getting confused by), but what you have said about kosher can be applied to the Word of Wisdom just as easily.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:2. One who is bedridden or noticeably not functioning due to pain or illness may take any tablet or bitter-tasting medicine.
I don't know that 'bad headache' falls in this category, unless we're using the word 'bad' very differently. I guess I'm curious about where you draw the line. (the royal you, not you-rivka).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
This has all been said earlier in this thread, but some people seem to have missed parts of it:
The commandment in our scriptures refers to "hot drinks". We have been told by our prophet that this means "coffee and tea". This refers to all coffee and tea, regardless of temperature, but not herbal tea. It is a commonly held belief by that part of the reason is because of the caffeine in coffee and tea. Because of this, many Mormons avoid to one degree or another caffineted drinks such as coca-cola. This is not a rule, even though some Mormons may think it is. A very small minority of Mormons extend this to anything that has caffeine, including chocolate. A very small minority of Mormons extend it to any and all "hot drinks", that is drinks which are hot.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know I should not ask this since my last question just stirred up a big mess but I really just don't get it.
I guess in my Christian beliefs there are fewer "commands from God" that seem irrelevant and just exist to see if you are faithful enough (although there are plenty of stories like that from Biblical history). The commandments my church follows make sense to me in a logical and moral sense (Thou shalt not kill: well, duh!)
So I guess I am just confused as to why God would command that you should abstain from consuming something as innocuous as a nice glass of iced tea, especially if the Words of Wisdom SAY "hot drinks." I compared it with keeping Kosher because that can be explained scripturally so it does not seem like it is ONLY a commandment from God. I am not saying you should question every commandment God gives and only follow it if you think it makes sense since there certainly are times in the Bible where following God without question is important. I just wanted to know if He gave a reason and if so, what that reason was. I certainly didn’t mean to start such a heated debate.
So who decided that "hot drinks" meant tea and coffee, no matter what the temperature? Why is herbal tea ok and not regular tea? The only explanation here is that the prophet said so. Who is the prophet? Why don't the Words of Wisdom just say coffee and tea? Why make it so ambiguous? I mean it seems to me that if God commanded it, He would certainly want everyone to completely understand what the command meant so we could be obedient.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: I guess in my Christian beliefs there are fewer "commands from God" that seem irrelevant and just exist to see if you are faithful enough.
I can't speak to Mormon theology, but in Jewish theology there are tons of commandments that make no sense to me. Maybe they are just there as a test of my faith. Or maybe there is some other reason that I don't know, and don't need to know. "Do it 'cause I said so", is enough of a reason when the guy doing the saying so is G'd. He may have his reasons and just didn't think he needed to spell them out for me.
posted
I think that you are hard pressed to find two drinks that are served more commonly [i]anywhere in the world[i] than coffee and tea. It's considered hospitible just about everywhere to offer a guest/coworker/friend coffee or tea. Therefore mormons must constantly set themselves apart by saying "No thanks, I don't drink this" and inviting questions about the Church and what we believe. I've gotten plenty of stares from having cocoa at the local coffee shop or turning over my mug at a fancy dinner.
I think this is a big reason why we have the Word of Wisdom. Not only do others notice this and ask questions, but we are given a nearly daily reminder of the commitments and covenants we have made and continue to make with Heavenly Father.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Therefore mormons must constantly set themselves apart by saying "No thanks, I don't drink this" and inviting questions about the Church and what we believe.
I believe that almost all restrictions on diet and behavior in modern religions are for this purpose.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:So who decided that "hot drinks" meant tea and coffee, no matter what the temperature? Why is herbal tea ok and not regular tea? The only explanation here is that the prophet said so. Who is the prophet? Why don't the Words of Wisdom just say coffee and tea? Why make it so ambiguous? I mean it seems to me that if God commanded it, He would certainly want everyone to completely understand what the command meant so we could be obedient.
The revelation was given through the Prophet Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith is the one who said that hot drinks meant coffee and tea. We (or at least I) believe that God does not usually reveal scripture word for word. He puts the ideas into the mind of the prophet, who then expresses them in his own words. Hence if Joseph Smith dictated "hot drinks" and then shortly thereafter said he meant coffee and tea -- that clarifies it.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: I've gotten plenty of stares from having cocoa at the local coffee shop or turning over my mug at a fancy dinner.
People STARE at that? That's bizarre. Are you sure they aren't staring because you are funny-looking? I wouldn't stare at someone drinking cocoa or refusing coffee at a diner. But if that person had two heads and a silver-green tinge to their skin, well, then I might stare.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
), it is far less serious a "sin" (and again, I don't like the implications of this word, but don't know a better one in English) than an intentional act would be; however, the spiritual affects of eating unkosher food would still occur.
