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Oh, I might as well comment on the burkha bit now.
There are some countries where wearing the burkha is mandatory - the more militant Islamic countries - but there are many other countries where it is not required and women are free to choose how much they cover up.
In Sri Lanka, some women wear a burkha, some wear a veil covering their hair, others don't cover their hair or face at all. It's up to the individual women to decide for themselves.
And yes, there are women who prefer to cover up more than other women. As I said, it's their CHOICE.
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Yes, in much the same way that John Ascroft had to protect those statues by draping them with covering cloths.
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And women in our country choose to wear what they wear too, but apparently this means that they are objectified.
It's interesting though, that this garment, whose apparent sole purpose is to protect women from men looking at them is mandatory for women in exactly those countries that have current history full of violence and degradation of women. It's also generally culturally mandated in those Islamic sub-cultures that practice Female Genital Mutilation.
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The US has the highest rape rate of any country that publishes such statistics. It is 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.
The murder rate in the US is also higher than in any other western country. It is 3.5 times the murder rates in Canada and England and more than 5 times the murder rates in Germany and Japan.
We have more people in prison per capita than any country except China.
Now, here is my question. Based on these statistic, would it be fair to conclude that American Society is more tolerant of rape and murder other societies.
No. I've lived in the US and I've lived other countries and US society as a whole is not more tolerant of these behaviors. TI think the behaviors are indicative of some serious social problems that need to be addressed but the problem isn't that Americans society thinks murder and rape are acceptable behavior. It would be unfair to claim that American society as a whole is savage because of the behavior of a few individuals.
The same reasoning should be applied to Muslim countries. The autrocities you speak were, for the most part, committed by individuals and not the whole society. Until you've lived in one of these societies and come to really understand it, its unfair of you to judge that the whole society is savage because of the acts of a few individuals. Until you know the culture and the society, how can pretend to understand what social forces underly the social problems in these countries.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: And women in our country choose to wear what they wear too, but apparently this means that they are objectified.
Come now my dear MrSquicky, when a woman has to parade scantily clad on top of a car so that the car maker can sell the car, you think that it is the woman's choice to parade like that in front of all those gawping boys and men? :-) You think it has nothing to do with the fact that the society accepts that kind of thing in the first place and says, "hey, given money we'll do anything and you should too?" Each to their own and I am in no position to condemn or judge but what I'm not saying is that the religion of these individuals (or the majority religion of the country) has any bearing on their actions. Because I don't think their religion plays a role in what they do
You on the other hand seem to believe that just because a certain country calls itself Islamic that everything they do is somehow some form of Islam. Which is what I'm refuting. I don't believe any action which harms an innocent is Islamic and that's what Islam says too. So, these people just because they call themselves Islamic, don't automatically become Muslims nor does Islam say that they should act the way do.
Incidentally, since you seem to be a bit attached to women being raped for not wearing burkhas, can you please point me to the links supporting this? I mean a link which says that the country's Islamic laws state that a woman can be raped because she didn't wear a burkha? I would be interested in specific cases too to see where it happened and how it happened so that I myself can be better informed of what goes on in the name of Islam. But I reiterate, the misguided actions of a few does not a religion make. If it did, then we'd have a lot more misery in the name of religion than we already do.
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quote:It's also generally culturally mandated in those Islamic sub-cultures that practice Female Genital Mutilation.
You are going to have to back this one up with some references MrSquicky. It is my understanding that Female Genital Mutilation was primarily practiced in certain regions of North East Africa, some of which are Christian, and predates Islam by thousands of years. I have never heard that it is a common practice in either Saudi Arabia or Afganistan (the two countries where women are required to wear the Burka by law).
My observation is that the Burka is worn only by a tiny minority of Muslim women. In my travels I've seen many women wearing head scarves but I've never seen anyone wearing a Burka.
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Rabbit, We disapprove and punish rapists and murderers. If you want ot point out subcultures within American society that do not, I'll freely them call them savage as well.
This guy has to flee the country because if he didn't, he'd be dead within a week.
The people who pushed those little girls back into a burning building were the semi-official guardians of Islam and wield enough power to prevent firefighters and other people from recuing the girls. And afterwards there was no outcry within their country about their actions.
The beating and rape of women who don't wear the burkha is commonplace and even commended as doing your duty in some countries.
People in some of these cultures celebrate when ne of their number blows up a bus full of children.
I don't understand the complex interplay of forces within these cultures, but I am sometimes able to tell when actions, practices, and beliefs are met with approval or not.
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quote:when a woman has to parade scantily clad on top of a car so that the car maker can sell the car, you think that it is the woman's choice to parade like that in front of all those gawping boys and men? :-) You think it has nothing to do with the fact that the society accepts that kind of thing in the first place and says, "hey, given money we'll do anything and you should too?"
I think that this is equally true that the culture strongly influences a woman's choice of whether to wear the burkha or not, and that it indicates something that it is most often enforced by law or cultural standards in societies that tell women "You are of much less worth than men."
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quote: It has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Malaysia, although very little is known about the practice in these countries. In India, a small Muslim sect, the Daudi Bohra, practise clitoridectomy.
In the Middle East, FGM is practised in Egypt, Oman, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates.
quote:The people who pushed those little girls back into a burning building were the semi-official guardians of Islam and wield enough power to prevent firefighters and other people from recuing the girls. And afterwards there was no outcry within their country about their actions.
Actually, there was a huge out cry through much of the Arab world over this action, including in Saudi Arabia.
In what countries is beating and rape of women who don't wear the burkha common. I've heard reports of this in Afghanistan but you said countries. Give me the stats.
In what cultures do people celebrate when some one blows up a bus full of children. Give me more than the hype.
All you understand about these cultures is what you read in a highly sensationalized US press. How many people do you know who've lived in these cultures? How many people have you talked to who no first hand what it's like to live in Egypt, or Morocco, or Sri Lanka, or India or Malaysia or Turkey?
Do you read Arabic? If not how do you know whether Arab writers are protesting these things?
You don't understand the interplay of forces in these cultures. If you don't know many people from these cultures first hand, how are you able to tell whether actions or practices are met with approval or not?
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quote: It has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Malaysia, although very little is known about the practice in these countries. In India, a small Muslim sect, the Daudi Bohra, practise clitoridectomy.
In the Middle East, FGM is practised in Egypt, Oman, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates.
And these are not the same regions where it is common to wear the Burka, so your association of Burka wearing and female genital mutilation seems inaccurate.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: This guy has to flee the country because if he didn't, he'd be dead within a week.
That is conjecture isn't it MrSquicky? Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, (at least according to some reports) had already stated that the man would not be executed. If you say that that might be true but a mob could still lynch him, then isn't that true of any other country in the world? Heck, people kill other people for wearing turbans, or for being a certain colour or for walking a certain way. Is that all because they are all of a given religion?
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: People in some of these cultures celebrate when ne of their number blows up a bus full of children.
I believe you miss the keyword in your own statement - "people" Yes, certain people everywhere rejoice when something bad happens to somebody else. Does that make it the fault of the whole nation? Or of a religion? How can you be so certain that it was their religion that shaped them to be who they are? First walk a mile in their shoes ...
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quote:We disapprove and punish rapists and murderers. If you want ot point out subcultures within American society that do not, I'll freely them call them savage as well.
We punish only a very small fraction of rapists and many murderers go free as well.
My point is that you live in American so you know that at most a very small fraction consider rape acceptable. You know that if rapists aren't punished, it isn't because most Americans think rape is OK.
If you lived in Afganistan and associated with many Afganis, you might be able to judge whether the threats made against this man are a general problem with Afgan society or the result of a few violent extremists. But you don't live there and it is unjust of you to assume you know what its like based on a few sensational media reports.
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quote:Actually, there was a huge out cry through much of the Arab world over this action, including in Saudi Arabia.
I'd like to see a source for that. Much of the coverage I remember was specifically about how there wasn't much negative reaction.
quote:In what countries is beating and rape of women who don't wear the burkha common. I've heard reports of this in Afghanistan but you said countries. Give me the stats.
Don't have 'em. Don't really feel like looking for them.
quote:In what cultures do people celebrate when some one blows up a bus full of children.
Palestine.
quote:All you understand about these cultures is what you read in a highly sensationalized US press.
Yes, and form Amnesty International, and the Human Rights Watch, and similar organizations. I'd suggest not telling me where my information comes unless you actually have some idea about this.
quote:You don't understand the interplay of forces in these cultures. If you don't know many people from these cultures first hand, how are you able to tell whether actions or practices are met with approval or not?
Because they keep occuring without the people committing them being punished or thought poorly of and many of them are in fact part of the laws of the land. This conversation started because it's the law of the land that this guy be put to death. It's very difficult to mistake that as the result of a few extermists.
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quote: It has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Malaysia, although very little is known about the practice in these countries. In India, a small Muslim sect, the Daudi Bohra, practise clitoridectomy.
In the Middle East, FGM is practised in Egypt, Oman, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates.
MrSquicky, it might interest you to know that I live in Sri Lanka and I'm a Muslim So by all accounts all of my female relatives must have had their genitalia mutilated. The strange thing is, I don't seem to recall this happening ...
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quote:And these are not the same regions where it is common to wear the Burka, so your association of Burka wearing and female genital mutilation seems inaccurate.
You may notice that I made reference to sub-cultures. Within these countries, there are sub-cultures that practice FGM. Many of these subcultures also hold mandatory burkha wearing as a cultural norm. If you're going to try to prove me wrong, actually do some work to try to do this.
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quote:MrSquicky, it might interest you to know that I live in Sri Lanka and I'm a Muslim [Smile] So by all accounts all of my female relatives must have had their genitalia mutilated. The strange thing is, I don't seem to recall this happening ...
Again, you seem to have a problem with not distinguishing among different populations. I think that there is an important distinction between Muslims in Sri Lanka and elsewhere that practice FGM (which, I don't know, are you contesting or what?) and those that don't. I'm not sure why you don't think this difference is important and for that matter I'm more than a little confused why you are trying to defend the FGMers.
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quote:We punish only a very small fraction of rapists and many murderers go free as well.
Err...as far as I know, nearly everyone who gets convicted of rape gets punished. Are you suggesting that there's this population of known rapists out there that no one really does anything about? Because that idea is just bizarre to me.
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To be honest MrSquicky, here are a sample of your comments through the last part of this thread:
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote: In what countries is beating and rape of women who don't wear the burkha common. I've heard reports of this in Afghanistan but you said countries. Give me the stats.
Don't have 'em. Don't really feel like looking for them.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: If you're going to try to prove me wrong, actually do some work to try to do this.
The above just seems to indicate that you've already made up your mind and are not interested in a factual and reasoned debate. I see no reason to continue this discussion, at least with you, since I've never been fond of talking to stone walls [Edited to put quote inside the quote tags ]
posted
Fahim, In the first quote, Rabbit admits that what I said happens in Afghanistan, but is taking me to task because I said countries. I honestly have little interest in pouring through news reports to establish that something we've already agrred happens in one country happens in others as well. I'm willing to ammend my statement to talk about only one country, because the effort involved in expanding one small part of one small part of my argument is not really worth it for me.
As for the second quote
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
well, you got me there. There was just no call for me to say that.
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quote:I'm more than a little confused why you are trying to defend the FGMers.
Wow. Saying that as far as he knows, it doesn't happen in Sri Lanka = defending FGMers. That's quite the leap, don't you think?
quote: quote:We punish only a very small fraction of rapists and many murderers go free as well.
Err...as far as I know, nearly everyone who gets convicted of rape gets punished. Are you suggesting that there's this population of known rapists out there that no one really does anything about? Because that idea is just bizarre to me.
Are you then suggesting that every rapist and every murderer are convicted? To my knowledge, that is not correct, nor is that what Rabbit stated.
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No, but then the implication seems to me that we should punish people we don't convict, that we punish people that, from a legla standpoint, we have not established committed rape, which I don't think is a good way to run a society. You can tell we disapprove of rape because 1) we have laws against it, 2) we actively try to enforce those laws, and 3) if you are convicted under those laws, you are going to get punished.
edit: Also,
quote:Wow. Saying that as far as he knows, it doesn't happen in Sri Lanka = defending FGMers. That's quite the leap, don't you think?
That's not at all what Fahim did. He did not claim that it doesn't happen in Sri Lanka. What he said was basically, "That must mean that every Muslim woman I know in Sri Lanka has undergone FGM."
What he did here, what he's done to me multiple times in this thread is to take a statement I've made about a specific, limited population and claim that I made about an entire population. As this is a common appologetics technique and as Fahim seems to be taking issue with me saying that Muslims do bad things, I'm taking that as a defense of these Muslims doing these bad things.
And I'll tell you, I'm not one of those people who jumps up and down and says "It's your job to point out to everyone that not all Muslims do these things." but I kinda look in askance at attempts to defend a group in it's totality that contain people like this in it. It's okay to admit that these people exist, even if they bear the same religious label as you do.
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quote:Err...as far as I know, nearly everyone who gets convicted of rape gets punished. Are you suggesting that there's this population of known rapists out there that no one really does anything about? Because that idea is just bizarre to me.
Most rapes in this country go unpunished something on the order of 80%. Some of this is due to the difficulty of proving rape. In cases where the defendant claims consensuality and there is no physical evidence of coercion, you're stuck with he-said/she-said, which is usually enough to establish reasonable doubt. In other cases, it's just hard to identify the rapist.
Some of the lack of punishment is due to lack of reporting, at least some of which is based on the victim's fear of how she'll be treated and an awareness of the problems described above.
Other lack of punishment is based on lack of zeal in pursuit, some caused by an awareness of the difficulties of proving rape, some for far uglier reasons stemming from misunderstanding of rape. And a not insignificant amount of rape is not punished because of systematic protection of rape stemming from either insular groups protecting their members or a sense of entitlement to sex whether consensual or not.
Regardless of the reasons, it would be easy to take the proposition "80% of 130,000 or so rape offenders get off scott-free" and conclude that Americans support or don't care much about protecting women from rape.
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quote:We punish only a very small fraction of rapists and many murderers go free as well.
Err...as far as I know, nearly everyone who gets convicted of rape gets punished. Are you suggesting that there's this population of known rapists out there that no one really does anything about? Because that idea is just bizarre to me.
The problem isn't that convicted rapists aren't punished, it is that most rapists are never convicted and so most rapists are never punished. Most rapes are not reported because women fear what will happen to them if they report a rape. Of those rapes that are reported, few lead to convictions. So if you look only at the numbers, what you see is that most rapist in the US are never punished.
And you are still missing my point. If someone who had never lived in the US read our rape statistic, they would find lots of rapes and very few people being punished. They could easily come to the conclusion that American society thinks rape is acceptable. They would be wrong. You know that and I know that, but how could someone know that if all they read were the statistics and they knew little or nothing more about American Society.
This is what you are doing to Islamic society. You aren't even looking at the statistics. You are looking at a few sensational stories that get picked up by the western press and making sweeping conclusions about what these societies are like. Even when you are given first hand knowledge about these societies by people who do live there, like quidscribis and Fahim, you reject it and claim that you know better.
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quote:This is what you are doing to Islamic society. You aren't even looking at the statistics. You are looking at a few sensational stories that get picked up by the western press and making sweeping conclusions about what these societies are like. Even when you are given first hand knowledge about these societies by people who do live there, like quidscribis and Fahim, you reject it and claim that you know better.
No, I'm not. Again, I suggest not characterizing where I'm drawing my information from unless you actually have some reason to know where I draw my information from.
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quote:This is what you are doing to Islamic society. You aren't even looking at the statistics. You are looking at a few sensational stories that get picked up by the western press and making sweeping conclusions about what these societies are like. Even when you are given first hand knowledge about these societies by people who do live there, like quidscribis and Fahim, you reject it and claim that you know better.
No, I'm not. Again, I suggest not characterizing where I'm drawing my information from unless you actually have some reason to know where I draw my information from.
And also, Fahim and quid don't live in the societies any more than I do. The whole thing we're doing here is talking about how it's a bad idea to group all Muslims into one big group. I don't get how this is responsible thing to do, even when you are trying to defend them.
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quote:MrSquicky, it might interest you to know that I live in Sri Lanka and I'm a Muslim [Smile] So by all accounts all of my female relatives must have had their genitalia mutilated. The strange thing is, I don't seem to recall this happening ...
Again, you seem to have a problem with not distinguishing among different populations. I think that there is an important distinction between Muslims in Sri Lanka and elsewhere that practice FGM (which, I don't know, are you contesting or what?) and those that don't. I'm not sure why you don't think this difference is important and for that matter I'm more than a little confused why you are trying to defend the FGMers.
quote:
quote:Wow. Saying that as far as he knows, it doesn't happen in Sri Lanka = defending FGMers. That's quite the leap, don't you think?
That's not at all what Fahim did. He did not claim that it doesn't happen in Sri Lanka. What he said was basically, "That must mean that every Muslim woman I know in Sri Lanka has undergone FGM."
That's your interpretation of what he wrote. It's not mine. I read it as a sarcastic response indicating that he's never heard of FGM occuring in Sri Lanka.
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quote:This is what you are doing to Islamic society. You aren't even looking at the statistics. You are looking at a few sensational stories that get picked up by the western press and making sweeping conclusions about what these societies are like. Even when you are given first hand knowledge about these societies by people who do live there, like quidscribis and Fahim, you reject it and claim that you know better.
No, I'm not. Again, I suggest not characterizing where I'm drawing my information from unless you actually have some reason to know where I draw my information from. Or maybe we can do a repeat of the FGM thing, where first it doesn't happen and then ok it happens, but these countries aren't known for mandatory wearing of the burkha, but oh wait, you said from the beginning you were talking about sub-cultures in these countries and now I find that you are right.
And also, Fahim and quid don't live in these societies any more than I do. They live in a specific culture in a specific location that is very different and separated from many of the places and cultures that we're talking about. The whole thing we're doing here is talking about how it's a bad idea to group all Muslims into one big group. I don't get how this is responsible thing to do, even when you are trying to defend them.
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quid, It's a little less an interpretation and a little more a near direct quotation:
quote:, it might interest you to know that I live in Sri Lanka and I'm a Muslim [Smile] So by all accounts all of my female relatives must have had their genitalia mutilated. The strange thing is, I don't seem to recall this happening ...
quote:What he did here, what he's done to me multiple times in this thread is to take a statement I've made about a specific, limited population and claim that I made about an entire population. As this is a common appologetics technique and as Fahim seems to be taking issue with me saying that Muslims do bad things, I'm taking that as a defense of these Muslims doing these bad things.
MrSquicky, You are still missing Fahim's point. Some people in every culture and religion do bad things. Some Muslims do bad things, no one is trying to defend them for that. Some Christians also do bad things, some Buddhists do bad things, some Athiests do bad things. Some people of all races, creeds, genders, and nationalities do bad things.
Why is it relevant that people who do something bad belong to a particular religion?
The only reason it could possibly be relevant is if that religious belief somehow caused the bad behavior. Fahim's point and mine is that Islam is not the cause of this behavior. The evidence for that is in the billion Muslims who don't do these kinds of things.
Sure, you can find case after case of individual Muslim's doing bad stuff. We all agree, that's bad stuff. What we aren't convinced of is that they are doing it because they are Muslims.
Your arguments are unjust to a billion people in the world who follow the teaching of Islam but commit no savage acts.
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posted
Not at all. As I have said and then emphasized, mulitple times, there are, at least to me, very significant differences between the forms of Islam practiced that we're talking about here. As I've said, I am not talking about Islam as a whole or in potential, but rather specific concrete examples of it. I am not saying that Islam in any form leads to savagery, but rather Islam, in some of the forms that it currently exists in and combined with many other factors, embraces and fosters savagery.
So, for example, the religious belief that says "You should kill people who convert from Islam." leads to practice of killing people who convert from Islam. Some versions of Islam have this belief and some don't. I think that this is an important distinction and I don't understand why you and Fahim don't, or at least aren't acknowledging it's central role in my argument.
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quote:r maybe we can do a repeat of the FGM thing, where first it doesn't happen and then ok it happens, but these countries aren't known for mandatory wearing of the burkha, but oh wait, you said from the beginning you were talking about sub-cultures in these countries and now I find that you are right.
No Mr. Squicky that's not how the argument proceeded. You first claimed that
quote: It's (burkha wearing) also generally culturally mandated in those Islamic sub-cultures that practice Female Genital Mutilation.
I said
quote:You are going to have to back this one up with some references MrSquicky. It is my understanding that Female Genital Mutilation was primarily practiced in certain regions of North East Africa, some of which are Christian, and predates Islam by thousands of years. I have never heard that it is a common practice in either Saudi Arabia or Afganistan (the two countries where women are required to wear the Burka by law).
I thougt I was quite clear that what you need to back up was the connection between burkha wearing and FGM. I never said nor implied that it didn't happen. No one hear ever said or implied that it was OK. The only thing we questioned was your assertion that FMG was practiced by the same people who require women to wear burkhas.
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quote:So, for example, the religious belief that says "You should kill people who convert from Islam." leads to practice of killing people who convert from Islam. Some versions of Islam have this belief and some don't.
How do you determine if something is "a version of Islam", or just the ravings of influencial lunatics who happen to call themselves Muslims?
I, for one, wouldn't call Pat Roberson's calls to assassinate people "a version of Christianity." There are those who call them self Christians, who beat up gays for fun and justify it by religion. But I would be offended by anyone who claimed that beating up gays was encouraged in any "version of Christianity." There are those who call themselves Christians who justify murdering abortion doctors, but that also isn't "a version of Christianity". As a Christian, I can tell you that Christianity isn't defined by the views or actions held by those who claim to be Chrisitans, it is defined by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anything that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ can not be considered "a version of Christianity".
It is my understanding that Islam is defined by the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed as recorded in the Quran. It is not defined by the words or actions of people who call themselves Muslim. I am not a Muslim, I do not know the teachings of the Quran but I have read the writings several Muslim scholars who say that killing people who convert is specifically prohibit in the Quran. If that is true, then what these people are doing can't be considered "a version of Islam".
Unless you are an expert on the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, then you have no right to claim that these savage behaviors are "a version of Islam".
Fahim is a Muslim. I assume then that he knows more about Islamic teachings and Islamic culture than either you or I. If he says that this behavior isn't "a version of Islam", I believe him.
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posted
That's fine. In Rabbit world, this isn't Islam. In the wider world, these people self identify as Muslims and are identified by others as such. Therefore, in common usage, they're Muslims.
Pat Roberston doesn't think you're a Christian. So are neither of you Christians? Or is one Christian and one not? Who gets to decide?
I think it's foolish to talk about the Platonic form of religion when we're discussing the real world. It doesn't exist. What we do have are a bunch of coherent groups that have consistent beliefs and self identify and are identified by others are members of a religion. For me, that's what I mean when I say someone is a member of a religion.
So, if you want to say that they aren't really members of their religion, just substitute, "People who say they are members of this religion and who other people recognize as members of this religion, but really aren't" when I say that someone or some culture is part of a religion. So when I'm talking about these countries with these versions of Islam, in your way of seeing things, I'm actually talking about countries that claim to be Islamic, but really aren't, because they do things you don't agree with. Which is fine. I don't really care what terms we use, so long as we're talking about the same thing.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Not at all. As I have said and then emphasized, mulitple times, there are, at least to me, very significant differences between the forms of Islam practiced that we're talking about here. As I've said, I am not talking about Islam as a whole or in potential, but rather specific concrete examples of it. I am not saying that Islam in any form leads to savagery, but rather Islam, in some of the forms that it currently exists in and combined with many other factors, embraces and fosters savagery.
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