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Author Topic: Prayers for our equine friend(as well as our horsey memories)
Elizabeth
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Come on, Barbaro, you can make it through this!
Poor baby...

[ May 25, 2006, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]

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Kasie H
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[Frown]
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kwsni
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Cessmoid injuries are fairly common in race horses, so the vets ought to be able to understand it pretty well. I hope he can recover enough to go out to stud.

Ni!

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ClaudiaTherese
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Barbaro, be strong!
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breyerchic04
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here's the latest on Bloodhorse
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Elizabeth
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That just doesn't sound good.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Hey! My brother does tech support stuff for Bloodhorse.
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Tatiana
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Poor horse! I hope so much they can fix his leg.
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breyerchic04
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Lots of people are comparing this race to the Ruffian match race, and that one didn't turn out well at all. Apparently just the way he was moving was similar. But medicine has improved since then.
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Elizabeth
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I know that, in all the stories, a broken leg is a done deal. So, I am hoping for some modern techniques.


My sister trains ex-race horses for riding/show. She will be so sad.

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breyerchic04
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It's getting better, depending on the break, they can save them. But it's still not a garuntee, and it would likely just be for a life at stud (and even that could be hard, ask kwsni for more).
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Elizabeth
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TMI, TMI!
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katdog42
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When I was a kid, 4, 5, 6...something like that... my mom called me into the house from playing outside. Being Kentuckians we always watched the Derby together, but the other races, she usually let pass on their own. This time, the derby winner won the Preakness. She called me in, explained the Triple Crown and got me all excited about how this one might be the horse. Well, it didn't win the Belmont. In fact, in my life time, no horse has ever taken the Triple Crown. I thought that this horse just might be it. I guess it is not to be. I'll have to hold out hope for another great horse next year.

Good luck Barbaro

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breyerchic04
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So many times in my lifetime (i'm 20) we've thought this might be the horse to win the crown, and it never happens. The last living winner died in 02 (I think) and this is the only time since the first crown winner 1919(?) that there hasn't been a living crown winner.
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Olivet
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Ah, I remember MY family following Preakness, too. For years (like five or six running) my sister picked the Derby winner. Then we moved away from Kentucky and the races didn't have much local coverage where we lived, so my sister kind of lost track. She never picked until she watched them being brought out for the race.

Poor horsie. [Frown]

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breyerchic04
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He's probably going into surgery about now. Hopefully they'll be able to stabilize him once he gets out though. What happened with Ruffian (a mare who broke a leg in a match race in the late 70s) was coming out of anesthesia thought she was racing and started moving her legs, before they were cast.
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Tatiana
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Oh, that's so sad! I know that my cats when they come out of anaesthesia will lurch around and try to jump and stuff. I have to keep them in their carriers to protect them from getting hurt. Their carriers have pillows on the floor of the carrier. Even so, they sometimes cram their faces into the metal grid of the door, and I'm like "ouch, watch your eye!" but if I move them back, then they lurch forward again, I guess trying to get out. It's scary.

I can't imagine how it would be to try to control a horse in that situation. It amazes me that horses are so tame under normal circumstances. If you had a 1200 lb cat, I can guarantee that it would not stand still and let you ride it and curry it and pick stones out of its paws. Horses have a gentle nobility that is awesome to be around.

Has there been any more word about Barbaro?

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breyerchic04
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Here is actually the latest!
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Tatiana
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Breyerchic, did you maybe paste the wrong url into your link? All I see on that page are horse figurines?
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breyerchic04
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Ooops, I'll fix it, didn't paste the right thing.
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Tatiana
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Thanks! Wow, it sounds very serious. I hope they can save him.
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breyerchic04
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If you click on that link again you can see more updates. His surgery started about 1 and was not finished at 6, but close. They didn't say anything about condition.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Oh, wow. I can't imagine he'd race again, not with a pinned joint. It would have to affect speed and handling, I'd think.

Poor guy. You can do it, Barbaro!

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Tatiana
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I don't think anyone thinks he will race again. They're just trying to save his life. Apparantly a 3 legged horse can't live, for some reason.
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kwsni
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Ct: They may not be able to put him out to stud, either, if the joint won't hold. He would have to support a full half of his weight on that leg many times a day for five or six months out of the year, every year. Stallions may not work for half the year, but they make up for it the other half. If you could train him to collect semen from the ground, he might be ok, but of course thoroughbreds don't do that kind of thing. It's too bad, there's obviously some pretty good genetics there.

Tatiana: They just cannot support their own weight for very long. Missing a leg, especially a hind leg, puts so much strain on the other joints that they break down really rapidly. These are essentially the joints in your toes, remember, they're very fragile.

Ni!

[ May 22, 2006, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: kwsni ]

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breyerchic04
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I think I remember a statistic that horses have the thinnest legs to support their body weight.

Ni, I really don't know much about the tbred industry or who the owner is, but couldn't he be used in sport horse or appendix qh breeding if they can train him to colllect semen from the ground? I mean I know of an andalusian and a fresian that have can do it, so I'm just wondering if there would be a use for him, though after I typed this I realized, he's a derby winner he'd probably if healthy only stand to TBs.

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kwsni
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I don't know much about sport horse breeding, but i think thoroughbreds are the only ones that don't allow AI. He could definitely stand as an appendix QH. It would be a shame, though. And the owners would be out a TON of money. Quarter Horse stud fees don't even compare to Tbred ones, and as I understand it owners don't break even on a horse till he's out to stud for a while.

Ni!

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breyerchic04
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I thought of that once I started typing. I think I remember hearing that some other breed didn't do AI but I think it was like Halflingers. No I don't think anything's stud fees compare to throughbreds, I forget some of the ones I've heard but they were much higher than anything for other breeds.
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kwsni
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It says in one of those articles that he's up and eating. Depending on how stoic he is about pain, that still may not be a good sign, though having them eating is always good.

Ni!

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breyerchic04
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Yeah, that can be positive, or it can be a stubborn stoic horse (like my dog who wouldn't whimper for the vet last week).
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Farmgirl
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Barbaro is lucky he is a stallion, because if they had already gelded him, there is no way they would have gone to these extremes to try to save him. But I am very glad they are trying. The whole race just made me cry once he got injured.

The hard part is yet to come, now that they've done the surgery they have to keep him sedated enough to not aggravate it. Unlike a human, you can't just tell a horse "stay in bed and keep off of it for six weeks"

FG

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breyerchic04
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Exactly.
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Jay
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Can't they put some kind of cast or sling?
Maybe a big support thing on a wheel that would immobilize yet holds his weight. Still let him get around, but keeps him off the bad leg.

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breyerchic04
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The last article I read said he has a cast and they'll be doing another surgery in a week to switch casts. Till then he's in a recovery stall.
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Tatiana
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Will you horse people please define the acronyms and terminology you are using?

AI = artificial insemination?
TB = thoroughbred?
stand to = breed with?
appendix qh = appendix quarterhorse? = what does that mean?
train him to collect semen from the ground = train him to allow a human trainer to collect his semen instead of actually breeding with a mare?

Are my guesses even close? [Smile]

Aren't derby runners always stallions? Why would they geld one and lose that potential huge money source?

Sounds like he's doing about as well as he possibly could with those injuries. Will the fact that his leg broke be counted against him genetically, and lower his stud fees a lot (assuming he survives)?

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kwsni
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Sorry, I forget that every industry has it's own abreviations. You've got AI and TB right. Stand to stud means to basically allow other people to pay to breed to your horse.

Quarter horses are a fairly young breed, so young that the stud book is still open, that means that a horse that isn't registered as a quarter horse can have offspring that can be. An appendix quarter horse is a stallion or mare that the AQHA (american quarter horse association) has approved. So you can breed that horse to a quarter horse, and register those offspring as appendix quarter horses. If you breed those offspring to a quarter horse, or another appendix, you can register those offspring as full quarter horses. At least, I think. A bunch of quarter horse people think they ought to close the stud book, that there's enough breeding stock already, without bringing more in. I think there's a lot of horses, but they may be lacking in the quality of bloodline department. There's still a lot of crap being bred to crap in the quarter horse world.

A thoroughbred can not be registered that was conceived through artificial insemination, nor can they be born out of a mare that is not their genetic mother, through embryo transfer. When you're collecting semen for Artificial Insemination, you do it one of three ways.

One, You have the stallion mount a mare in heat, but don't let him penetrate, and divert him into an artificial vagina that collects the semen. A few people do this, but you need at lest three people, one to hold the mare, one to hold the stallion, and one to hold the AV. It also introduces another horse into the equation, which always makes things more complicated.

Two, You have a mare in heat right there, let him smell her, touch her, whatever he needs to do, but then he's trained to mount a dummy, and he's still diverted into an AV so the semen can be collected. Some dummies even have a system with an AV in them, but they're a pain to work with. This method is fairly common, because it's safer for everyone involved, and takes less people to do it this way.

Three, you let the stallion smell and touch the mare, and then when he becomes aroused, you pull him away and manipulate the AV so that he doesn't have to mount anything. This is safer yet, since you don't have 1200 pounds of horny stallion hurtling at you, but some stallions just can't get past the instinct to mount. This method is helpful on older stallions, since thier hind ankles and hocks get arthritic.

Derby runners are always colts. A colt is a male horse under the age of about four. Whether an owner decides to geld a colt or not is usually because of medical reasons or temprament. If he's dangerous in the barn or in hand, but runs like the wind, then you might geld him. Or if one or both of his testicles didn't drop, and he has to have surgery to remove them.You want to get some of the money you paid for stud fees, feed, board, and training and vet bills back, even if you don't break even.

Note that his is mostly only true in thoroughbreds. Most other breeds geld colts sometime before thier first birthday, unless you have an exceptional colt. Some breeds even have a set of rules and approvals that have to be met before you can stand a stallion at stud.

Whether his broken leg will count against him genetically, that depends. The thoroughbred people have a lot of the bloodline stuff worked out to a science, but horse breeding is tricky stuff. It's still mostly art, instinct and know-how. There's just too many variables to account for. If somebody somehow finds a flaw on an x-ray somewhere, and it can be linked to something genetic, then sure, his bookings(the number of mares he breeds a season) will go down. The racing industry is fickle too, his bloodlines could go out of fashion, and no one will to want to breed to him because no one is racing that kind of horse. But I imagine that if the joint can stand up to it, he'll have plenty of mares to breed to.

Ni!

[ May 22, 2006, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: kwsni ]

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Nell Gwyn
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quote:
Derby runners are always colts.
This isn't always the case - a filly (young female horse) can run in the Derby as well, although it doesn't happen very often because, as I understand it, not many fillies can really compete against the kind of colts that are entered in a race of that caliber. Or at least, not well enough to make the high entrance fees worth the investment. Historically, only 38 fillies have run in the Derby, and only 3 fillies have won it - Regret in 1915, Genuine Risk in 1980, and Winning Colors in 1988.

From what I've heard, a generally accepted belief is that colts and stallions make better racehorses than fillies/mares/geldings because the testosterone results in bigger, faster, more aggressive/competitive horses. I don't know if this belief is really as prevalent as I've heard, or how much it's backed up by scientific fact. Horses keep growing until they're about 5 years old, so it sort of makes sense that a colt is more likely to win over a gelding.

However, there have been 8 geldings that won the Derby as well, the most recent being Funny Cide in 2003. But being a colt doesn't automatically lead to a racehorse becoming a viable stud - Cigar, who tied Citation's record of 16 wins in a row and was Horse of the Year in 1995, turned out to be sterile after they retired him to stud.

And I didn't realize that AI isn't allowed for racehorses, but it makes sense now that I think about it. Thoroughbred racing is a very traditional sport, so it doesn't surprise me that they do things the old-fashioned way. [Wink] Plus it probably helps keep the playing field a bit more level.

Here's another article on how Barbaro's doing. Sorry, I know it's on Fox, but it has a picture of his post-surgery xray, and it seems pretty horse newbie-friendly. [Smile]

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Elizabeth
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OK, we all know what the intitials TMI mean, right?

(kidding-sort of-interested but grossed out, simultaneously)

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kwsni
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Sorry, Liz. No more gross stuff.

Nell,i forgot that fillies could run it. they just..don't. The Tbred people also think that AI can lead to one horse becoming dominant in the breed. And I can see how that can happen. You can only breed one mare per mount with natural cover, but you can breed many (up to six or seven!) mares with AI, because the semen can be diluted. You can also chill or freeze it and send it all over the country or the world. The english Tbred people wouldn't like having an american horse take over thier bloodlines, and the americans wouldn't like a Japanese horse take over over here.

*Note to Pop, if he's reading: I dunno where your comfort level is, here, but if you want me to make anything less, ah, explicit, let me know.*

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breyerchic04
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AI has caused a few Arab stallions to become dominate in the breed, but in the case I'm thinking of, it wasn't a bad thing.
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Tstorm
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I guess its TMI if you've never been around that stuff. Personally, I'm not squicked by it. Heck, a couple of weeks ago, my Dad and I saw some cow-on-cow action in a field. Udderly disgusting, some people might think. We thought it was slightly humorous, to say the least. [Smile]
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Tatiana
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Well, the TMI is my fault, I guess, sorry. I wanted to understand what they were saying. So I had to get them to explain all their technical jargon and euphemisms that sounded nicer.

So Barbaro retires from racing and becomes a licensed sex worker. [Wink]

I think it's sort of funny that if thoroughbred breeders allowed AI, then they know that giving breeders what they want (the ability to easily breed their mares with any stallion from anywhere in the world) would result in worse genes overall.

I wonder what's going to happen when humans can manipulate their own genes to a large extent? You know that the mass of people won't resist the urge to fiddle. But people are much less smart when it comes to choosing good genes than 3 billion years of evolution. Will that result in splinter lines with little genetic diversity, who are therefore vulnerable to diseases or changing conditions? Or will it be the only thing that saves us? It will be interesting to see. [Smile]

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Farmgirl
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Barbaro walking on leg, improving after surgery

Sounds like there is encouragement.

FG

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kwsni
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Tatiana,If you're still interested in how this stuff works, I can blather on all day about it. Email's in the profile.

Ni!

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Elizabeth
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Oh, please, I was just kidding, really! Don't let my being squicked out about horse sperm stimy the discussion!
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Kristen
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I have a question which is probably dumb:

Didn't all the horses descend from one Arabian stallion? Or a few Arabian horses?

Wouldn't that have led to a lot of icky genetic problems due to lack of genetic diversity? Does that happen often?

EDIT: All the thoroughbred horses, I mean.

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breyerchic04
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Ok, we're going back to stuff Sarah memorized in 4th grade, it might be a bit off, I'll research it later.

It was three Stallions, The Godolphin Arabian, The Byrley Turk, and one other, plus a bunch of mares, I believe each of those three stallions had several sons that became founders of the breed. Also the breed had an open studbook for quite a while. So while it was founded by a small pool, that was several hundred years ago and there are now many more bloodlines. here's a link that talks about the founding sires

A horse email list I'm on has been discussing the Barbarro incident and someone suggested adding more Arabian blood to the breed for a while because arabians are known for having denser bones, and were the original foundation.

I really don't know much about thoroughbreds so I'm not going to talk about their genetic problems.

In the 1960s a young studcolt took the Quarter Horse world by storm, he was amazing and different and exactly what everyone wanted. So everyone bred to him, lots and lots of babies (though I believe all live cover), and then lots of grand babies, many of whom had parents who both had him for a father. Somehow this horse had a disease that hadn't popped up in any breeds before. It was recessive and thus only really affected horses with two genes for it. The horse was Impressive, and the disease was HYPP (Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis). HYPP site


Kristen, that wasn't a dumb question, and I didn't really answer it, but I hope this helps and I'm sure Kwsni has something educated to add [Big Grin]

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kwsni
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Only that the other horse that thoroughbreds decended from was the Darley Arabian. I'm much more interested in making horsey babies than I am in learning where mom and dad came from.

Ni!

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breyerchic04
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The word was just escaping my mind. I thought it was possible you might have an oppinion on the idea of tbreds being inbred to an extreme.
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Elmer's Glue
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Just send it to the glue factory already!

j/k

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