posted
Just because she is posting under an alternate name doesn't mean that she won't ever tell us her identity. It could just be possible that she just wanted to see our reaction before deciding whether or not to tell her identity. There are loads of people on this forum that are thought very highly of and if the alt name is any of them then maybe she thinks that we'll view her as a coward or think less of her if she posted under her real name. Obviously this goes the same way for those thats posts are disregarded, as since they don't recieve much attention or are not thought highly of, this could make them feel even more worthless.
I don't care who Alt Name really is because other from this website I don't know her and will probably never meet her. It took a lot of courage just to relate this story to someone else, especially since many of us don't know Alt Name personally or live thousands of miles away. The distance and the impersonality between the the poster and the responders opens the poster up for much more criticism and a lot less consolation. I don't really care what you guys think about Alt Name, but if you ask me it took a lot of courage to relate this story to us.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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And thanks, also, to everyone on this thread who endeavored to keep things cool. We don't all agree on the issues, but it is nice that we can agree to be civil and respectful here. This is what makes Hatrack one of my favorite places to be.
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:There are loads of people on this forum that are thought very highly of and if the alt name is any of them then maybe she thinks that we'll view her as a coward or think less of her if she posted under her real name.
I've got to say that this fear is inconceivable to me. It is completely contrary to my own experiences on Hatrack.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Generally, I'd agree with you on your last post, Tom. But in this particular situation, we're talking about a highly sensitive topic, one that has caused significant controversy in the past. I signed up an alt with the intent of posting in this thread, because what I was planning to say was something that I'm not proud of having in my history (no, not along the lines of what AltName and AltNameToo posted) and then decided that what I would have said really didn't have enough bearing on the discussion to have been of any help.
As for the adoption suggestion (and this I am willing to admit to under my own name): I gave up two children for adoption. I was married and had two of my own, and when #3 made her presence known through failed BC, I knew there was no way financially or otherwise that I could deal with it. Fortunately for everyone involved, a good friend of mine knew a couple who were not able to conceive themselves and had just about run out of insurance coverage for IVF. Through my accident, I was able to give another family a chance. And then when #4 came because my then husband refused to accept no for an answer (minor derail - does that make it rape??), I immediately went to that family and asked if they would be interested in a biological sibling, an offer they most gladly jumped at. But not every woman is able to go through what I went through. I was fortunate to have lots of support from my parents, the adoptive parents, and our mutual friends (not so much the spouse, however), and because I had my children already, I was able to redirect the maternal bonds that wanted to form with the children I carried. And believe me, that is NOT an easy thing to fight.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Good heavens, there was more personal angst about Belle's cat then when... well, let's see... who was the last Jatraqero to come out of the closet?
We don't get upset about finding out BIG NEWS. Naw, we get upset over minutia. Cats. Child discipline.
Fan fiction, for heaven's sake.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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TomDavidson - it seems like as the years go by (wow, isn't it scary I'm referring to my time on hatrack in terms of years?) I gain more and more respect for you.
You may have, in that one situation, been the cad as you say, but you're one heckuva guy now.
quote:We don't get upset about finding out BIG NEWS. Naw, we get upset over minutia. Cats. Child discipline.
Fan fiction, for heaven's sake.
*looks about warily*
Scott, how did you know that just today I kicked my cat, screamed at my kids, and sat down to write some Harry Potter slash?
Have you and the men in black been bugging my house again?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Okay... I'm a pro-life, 'evil' left-winged (Or is it right-winged?) conservative... But I do really sympethize with women in the situations... I can't empethize, because I'm a homeschooled 16 year old male who has never been faced with a decision to make an abortion. So, keep in mind that I am looking at this from a distance, not up close from a personal experience.
One objection to abortion is just that I believe that there is a bond between mother and child the moment there is a fetus, and that most mothers which I know and have heard of (From a friend of a friend. <Rolls eyes>) really feel bad about it and have issues later in life... Not that I would presume to tell a mother not to abort her baby 'for her own good'. I'm not a mother, and I've never experienced pain from an abortion... But if there is that bond (Completely theoretical bond) then shouldn't there be a living being to which the mother would be bonded? Does a person feel a bond with a group of cells fertilized by sperm?
And in this situation, why not give the baby up for adoption?
But is this thread even about abortion? Is this more about a women's defense of her choice in the face of harsh accusations from the evil conservatives? And I use the word defense because the thread does seem like a defense... Not simply an explanation. And I, as a person never faced with the choice to abort or not, do wonder who (Or is it Whom) it is to which (Or is it Whom?) she is defending herself. Surely it's not us... We made sweeping generelizations (I speak of the evil pro-life zombies) not a specific attack against her... The person who seems to defend herself out of principle, not her good name, since she is anonomous.
I would like to stress that I do really feel sorry about her situation, and I'd like to think that I understand (Who really 'understands' unless they've lived it?), although I probably just think I understand and in reality, do not. And I think that faced with the situation, she did as many others would have. And, If life does start with stirrings, then there was absolutely nothing wrong.
I would also like to point out that if I ever make a sweeping generilization (Although I've been privalged on this board not to have ever posted about hot political issues before) it is the choice to kill (Or terminate) A life (Or fetus which is technically not life), never the mother.
Posts: 438 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I think the decision to post anonymously is extremely legit. Depending on your belief system, finding out someone had an abortion does change what you think of them. And I'll be honest, despite being pro-choice, when I found out someone I knew had an abortion, it did change how I viewed them. It was a married couple, very well off, no health issues, already had children. Just one more wasn't in their plans and so that was that. And I can't help but think less of them. I know it is wrong to judge others, but at some level, I just think, selfish, irresponsible people. On the other hand, I have known other people who have had abortions and it didn't affect how I thought about them at all (the stories posted here would not change my opinions about the people posting them).
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SoaPiNuReYe: Just because she is posting under an alternate name doesn't mean that she won't ever tell us her identity. It could just be possible that she just wanted to see our reaction before deciding whether or not to tell her identity.
If this were the case I would be very upset. I would not appreciate being made a test subject.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
"Test subject?" Because someone didn't want to reveal her identity and risk other Hatrackers looking at her in a much more negative light? That's pretty harsh.
posted
I might think less of them, but for a very specific reason. I might think less of them because, if I knew a good deal about the circumstances, I could conclude that they did not take the crucial (in my opinion) uncertainty (not a matter of opinion) about when exactly human life begins seriously enough.
But that is all. I'm not going to be made to feel guilty or oppressive about that, either.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Expressing unasked-for opinions about something that affects two adults who can speak for themselves is one thing, and I tend to shy away from that except in the abstract. Expressing an unasked-for opinion about something that affects someone who cannot speak for themself is quite different, in my opinion.
Bear in mind Bob that your stance on how much is enough information to make a judgement is basically required by your philosophy on abortion. Advising someone to take someone's word for something because you take their word for something is hardly persuasive, but I realize you may not have been trying to persuade me about this.
Now as for this thread...well, I don't consider myself under the same obligations of restraint to someone who hides behind a mask as I do someone who speaks to me face to face.
I have actually been in this situation before-confronted with a friend who went with his girlfriend to get an abortion. He called himself a Catholic, no less. I did not express the disapproval I felt then, verbally or facially. He even thanked me for that later, because he knew as he told me how I felt about such things.
AltName's thread is not like that. She was and is, in my opinion, pretty obviously asking for juddgement...affirming judgement. Opinions and rhetoric are welcome, so long as they are either friendly and agreeable or friendly and vague, refraining from any sort of personal criticism of such a decision. That's the impression I got, due in part to the tone of the original post and due to the fact that she did not restrain friendly agreement with her actions.
Thus, judgement is welcome so long as it is the right kind of judgement. And anyway, posting under an altname is only a hair's breadth away from considering the issue in the abstract in my opinion. I don't regard her doing so as cowardly, but it is certainly not brave either.
So, I will discuss something so personal when it is in the abstract, as this plainly is. So will you, actually. Not this particular issue, but other deeply personal, spiritual, and ethical issues. That's a lot of what we do around here, express opinions about the deeply personal.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
And for that matter Bob, what of women who have been in AltName's situation? Obviously their circumstances cannot have been exactly identical, but I think we can agree that there are many whose were close. Potentially several on this very board, who chose not to have an abortion. What would you say to them about expressing their opinion?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Thanks for sharing your homesty. While some prominent members of my religion have opined that life begins at the quickening, it is not doctrine, so I don't know if that is the same religion.
I can relate to the circumstances of your becoming pregnant. Truly but for the grace of God, there go I. Though I'm sorry for the baby and for some infertile couple that you didn't carry the baby and allow it to be adopted. But you alone have walked in your shoes, and if you have accepted God's mercy I rejoice for you.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I got the impression that Tom was asking what factors made scholar think less of one couple that got an abortion and not others.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AltName: It was precisely this comment that motivated me to tell my story.
OK, let's analyze your 'critical thinking':
quote: I read and researched and asked questions about what my religion taught about the beginning of life and of abortion. The answers were not clear cut, but it was evident to me that, in the teaching of my faith, that it was not a grievous sin to have an abortion in my circumstances. . . If you believe that human life, the existence of a soul, begins at the moment that sperm joins egg, then abortion is indeed murder. But I am a religious woman, and my religion does not teach that this is when life begins. My faith teaches that life begins with the quickening, the point when the baby can be felt moving inside the mother
This ought to be obvious, but if you have a question about biology, you research biology to find an answer, not religion. Your approach makes about as much sense as determining whether a particular law is constitutional by seeing if your preferred political party supports it.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Just one more wasn't in their plans and so that was that. And I can't help but think less of them.
Why?
Just speaking for myself, if one more just wasn't in their plans, why did they not just opt for vas/tubal BEFORE they got pregnant with a child they weren't willing to have?
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Altname was looking to find out if it was a sin to abort her child. One of the things (in her mind) that would make it a sin would be if the fetus had a spirit at the time of the abortion.
Biology cannot tell us when the spirit enters into a child, since the spirit isn't a quantifiable or measurable or detectable thing.
So she looked to her religion.
Her actions make sense, when seen through the lens of her thinking. I don't agree with them, but I can understand why she did what she did.
Your hostility, (as evidenced by your use of the phrase 'critical thinking') is unwelcome.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: Just speaking for myself, if one more just wasn't in their plans, why did they not just opt for vas/tubal BEFORE they got pregnant with a child they weren't willing to have?
That's an excellent question. But the person who said he thinks less of them is pro-choice. In that scenario, no one died. The mother underwent a surgical procedure.
Would you think less of someone for having a boil lanced, if she'd picked at it until it got bad?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I don't think that most pro-choice people think of the fetus as a completely value-less collection of cells. I think they recognize the human potential, but there are mitigating factors that cause them to value abortion rights more than the potential they see.
Of course, being pro-life, I'm not really sure if this is accurate or not...
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:My faith teaches that life begins with the quickening, the point when the baby can be felt moving inside the mother
What faith is this? I'm sorry if I sound completely ignorant, but I truly don't know.
I find the idea of waiting until quickening really arbitrary, honestly. I mean, women feel movement at different times, no one is the same. Frankly, women who are heavier, will feel their babies move later. So their babies don't gain life as quickly as someone else's? That really isn't something I could wrap my head around and be comfortable with.
Also, women usually feel movement earlier in subsequent pregnancies, I know I felt Emily move faster than I did Natalie, and the twins even faster yet. Did they get their souls earlier? If I felt Natalie move at 14 weeks, and Emily at 10, does that mean that an abortion at 12 weeks is only murder if it's Emily I killed, not Natalie?
I haven't posted much in this thread because something about it really bothered me, and now I am pretty sure I know why.
We have no idea if the first post is true or not. We really don't. Of course, we don't know if what anybody posts is ever really true, but we can be pretty sure if the person is someone we've known for years and is consistent. I don't think many of you doubt that I live in Alabama and have four kids, for example. I've been here long enough, and have met enough people IRL for most folks to be pretty confident they know me.
But let's say I wanted to make a point on the pro-life side, I could register a new name, and come in and post a sob story. I could. I wouldn't, because I respect everyone here and don't want to do something so dishonest. But I don't know who altname is, and don't know if I can really trust what this person says.
I also get frustrated whenever someone says "You can't judge people who have abortions unless you know them, they're real people you know." I get frustrated because it assumes that pro-lifers don't care at all about the woman getting the abortion, we only care about the baby. Not true. My work in the pro-life movement has been all about the mothers. The organization I volunteered with didn't do anything that you think a typical pro-life organization did. They didn't picket, they didn't protest, they didn't spend their resources lobbying politicians. They spent their resources on supporting unwed mothers financially and emotionally and they provided free counselling to women who had abortions and seriously regretted them now.
I'm fed up with the idea that pro-life people don't care about the woman involved. We do. We just care about the unborn life too.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle, that's one thing that bothered me about this thread also: that it could be a made up story to put a 'real' face on for the argument.
OTOH, I also don't have a problem with AltName preferring to be anonymous. It's a sensitive issue and in her place, I don't know I would want people to have that in their impression of me, especially if there were lots of years between now and the experience. I wouldn't want something that far in the past to strongly color people's understanding of me.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I'm pretty sure I saw "quickening" used as the marker for the beginning of life in an article by a Jewish ethicist (the article was on stem cell research), but I don't know if that is a cutoff agreed to by most rabbis or not.
In this particular article it wasn't when the woman first noticed movement, though, but the time when the fetus could be observed medically to move. I believe it was cited as about 40 days. So either 4 or 6 weeks pregnant, depending on whether it's 40 days from conception or from last period.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I think Scott R sums up my view pretty well. I don't see abortion as murder, but I also don't see the fetus as without value. There is more to it than a clump of cells. There should be a balance and in this case, the decision struck me as not putting any emphasis on the fetus.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
As for abortion survivors, I don't know if this counts: my mother had me tested in utero, and I didn't have any disabilities so she allowed me to born. She told me that had I been disabled, she would have aborted me.
That didn't make me feel too good.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I get frustrated because it assumes that pro-lifers don't care at all about the woman getting the abortion, we only care about the baby. Not true. My work in the pro-life movement has been all about the mothers. The organization I volunteered with didn't do anything that you think a typical pro-life organization did. They didn't picket, they didn't protest, they didn't spend their resources lobbying politicians. They spent their resources on supporting unwed mothers financially and emotionally and they provided free counselling to women who had abortions and seriously regretted them now.
I'm fed up with the idea that pro-life people don't care about the woman involved. We do. We just care about the unborn life too.
Belle, I wish I had known back then there were organizations like yours, but I had never heard of any before and at the time I was not very focused. I now know about Birthright and try to help them out when I can. I think the work you do is wonderful and I hope you can get the word out to more people that you and others like you are there if people want that choice. I know at the time I only ever thought about the picketers when I thought Pro-Life. Now I know better.
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2006
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quote: We have no idea if the first post is true or not. We really don't. Of course, we don't know if what anybody posts is ever really true, but we can be pretty sure if the person is someone we've known for years and is consistent. I don't think many of you doubt that I live in Alabama and have four kids, for example. I've been here long enough, and have met enough people IRL for most folks to be pretty confident they know me.
But let's say I wanted to make a point on the pro-life side, I could register a new name, and come in and post a sob story. I could. I wouldn't, because I respect everyone here and don't want to do something so dishonest. But I don't know who altname is, and don't know if I can really trust what this person says.
The only way this matters is if you deny that the Altname's story has taken place, anywhere, ever. If it has taken place, it doesn't matter WHO it is.
Besides, she's stated clearly enough: she's not after converts, she's not after sympathy or warm sentiments, she wants understanding and moderation when we have these discussions. This thread, for the most part, has executed that beautifully thusfar.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MissAmandaJones: I hope you can get the word out to more people that you and others like you are there if people want that choice.
Catholic Social Services will be happy to help with a crisis pregnancy. 1-800-Baby-Due
Local churches usually have some help as well. We received a ton of food, toys, and clothing from Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas for Christian and St. Mark's Catholic for Katherine.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:The only way this matters is if you deny that the Altname's story has taken place, anywhere, ever. If it has taken place, it doesn't matter WHO it is.
I disagree. It does matter, very much if the person is being dishonest. Before I take stock in what this person says, before I change the way I look at the debate or whatever you think they're trying to accomplish, I want to know that the person urging me to do that has some credibility. And you can't establish credibility by hiding behind a false name, you just can't.
It does matter who says what, and whether or not that person is credible. Because otherwise, you're talking about someone who has no personal stake at all, and is only out to manipulate others by posting a false story. Now, I'm not saying that is what happened, but I'm saying that by hiding and not being forthright and admitting who they are, altname has put sufficient doubt in my mind so that I can't take what they say at face value.
I've talked to women who've had abortions, I don't need some anonymous person posting a story that may or not be true to put a face on the abortion debate for me, I've seen those faces in real life. I'm just saying that I have trouble buying into the stories, if the person posting them isn't going to admit who they are. That's all.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:I also get frustrated whenever someone says "You can't judge people who have abortions unless you know them, they're real people you know." I get frustrated because it assumes that pro-lifers don't care at all about the woman getting the abortion, we only care about the baby.
I don't assume that.
I'm also very glad organizations like the one you describe exist.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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