posted
Pastor Lloyd Day, of a Messianic Congregation in Oregon, claims he has been given more than one dream urging him to warn people that a 9.2 earthquake will devastate the Willamette Valley, cause the Bonneville Dam to collapse, and send a wall of water downstream that will devastate Portland and Salem, on June 18. He seems sincere.
posted
Wow, he must actually pay attention to when God speaks to him. On the other hand, Pat Robertson said that what God told him was rather vague.
9.2 huh. I would hope his congregation either fires him or finds help for him afterwards. That really does count as being delusional.
Wait, what am I thinking, Pat Robertson has been making such predictions off and on for years and idiots still listen to him. It will just be that people repented and went to church enough that God decided to spare people the disaster.
Sorry, stuff like this both entertains me and makes me angry at the same time
Posts: 375 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think it would be incredibly interesting if Pastor Day started a blog on June 19th detailing his reactions to the failure of his prophecy to come true. Heck, I'd be very interested in reading his thoughts leading up to deciding to disclose his prophetic vision.
It's entirely possible, even likely, that he has been having these dreams and been struggling with coming out and telling people about them. While I think it's giving the majority of prophecy oriented Christians too much credit to say that his ministry would be over if his predictions didn't come true, it's still a pretty darn big risk to take. I don't believe for a second that what he's saying is going to come to pass, but even so, you've got to respect someone who is willing to lay themselves out like that.
Edit: From what I've read here, Pastor Day doesn't give off the same self-serving, power/money grubbing air of prophecy making that Pat Robertson and his televangelistic brethern do. He sounds like this is actually coming out of a place of integrity, misplaced though it may be. I'd suggest pity is a more appropriate emotion than anger.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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What the... dangit. I've only been here 5 months and already I'm bringing the bad weather (or geologic disturbances, as it were) with me. Most consecutive days of rain in however many years it's been, then an earthquake? Gyah!
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Thinking about it, this opens up a whole new frontier for environmental conservation. We just need t oget Christian preachers to have/fake prophetic dreams about the likely effects of pollution.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Interesting. I'll have to make sure I'm not in the valley that day...and warn all my friends who live in Salem. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:While I think it's giving the majority of prophecy oriented Christians too much credit to say that his ministry would be over if his predictions didn't come true, it's still a pretty darn big risk to take.
If it did happen, what would need to be said about those who don't start listening to this man's message?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Hey, that's actually kind of brilliant. Maybe people with a rich fantasy life could do some good for a change. The difficulty is that they are all too likely to decide that nuclear power stations pollute a lot more than cars.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:While I think it's giving the majority of prophecy oriented Christians too much credit to say that his ministry would be over if his predictions didn't come true, it's still a pretty darn big risk to take.
If it did happen, what would need to be said about those who don't start listening to this man's message?
If an earthquake that measures 9.2 on the richter scale naturally hits the exact spot he says, no deviation in anythingon June 18, then I might have to re-read the new testament.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Narnia, anyone in the Willamette Valley who decides to go on a Sunday outing with his family on the 18th just to play it safe, also ought to take their pets with them.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I had the same thought of, "what if it did?" Sooner or later someones predcition will come true. Don't think it will be this one though.
And I agree from reading a bit of his posting that he does seem to be deserving more of pity than anything else. He is deluded, but it seems his intentions are honorable.
Posts: 375 | Registered: Mar 2005
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For some reason the first thing that came to mind was this Buffy quote:
Buffy (speaking to Giles): What if the quake was a sign? Ah, a bad omen and we just ignore it? There is going to be a lot of red faces when the world comes to an end.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I'm highly doubting that with a 9.2, the congregation would actually be far enough away not to be affected, and it would take most of Portland for sure. On the other hand given that they live so close to Mt St Hellens there might be good odds for a 2.9 quake that day...
He's the very model of the reluctant prophet. Ran away, got swallowed by a whale and spat out.
Got mad because God changed his mind & didn't smite the evil-doers. Just because they repented and dressed up in sack cloth (even the cows wore sack cloth!)
Anyway, the life of a prophet is no fun.
I wonder if this guy will re-examine his teachings on homosexuality after his prophecy fails to come true.
It would seem the logical course of action to at least look at whether his beliefs are somehow askew.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:If an earthquake that measures 9.2 on the richter scale naturally hits the exact spot he says, no deviation in anythingon June 18, then I might have to re-read the new testament.
Me too, because I believe in the New Testament and believe it teaches against current miraculous revelations and so therefore treat ALL modern prophecies as bunk. So if a really specific one was fulfilled, it would really shake me up.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: I'm highly doubting that with a 9.2, the congregation would actually be far enough away not to be affected, and it would take most of Portland for sure. On the other hand given that they live so close to Mt St Hellens there might be good odds for a 2.9 quake that day...
AJ
There's a thought. Maybe his prophetic dreams were sent by a dislexic god?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Maybe it's a bizarre manifestation of my limited, confused faith that although I am logically inclined to disbelieve this, part of me wonders very seriously what I will do if it comes true.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I think the really interesting thing about this is that he doesn't really seem to be a doom merchant. Now, I obviously don't have a full view of the situation, but it really sounds to me like Day feels compelled almost against his better judgement to relate his vision. It sounds like he really believes that this is going to come to pass and feels like he has to let people know, even though there's a significant risk he's going to look foolish.
What little I've read doesn't sound like the typical pattern of doomsday cults, whose strength comes directly from the immense doubt they feel, nor like a Pat Roberston-esque play for power. I'm really finding myself fascinated by this guy.
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Dag, I still don't understand why you think your question is relevant. You seem to be drawing an equivilence for reasons I don't get. Perhaps if you could give your own thoughts, I'd be better able to see where you are coming from. I also don't think you understand my use of the word "credit".
Seekers after prophecy, faith healing, and the like are generally desperate people. Christian preachers claiming to be prophets, but whose prophecies are either incredibly vauge, or just turn out not to be true have been a more or less constant presence, but people still follow them.
It's like, you could show a Johnathan Edwards crowd him screwing up or exactly how he performs his tricks, but they're still going to believe in him, because, what else have they got?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Well, if his prophecy does come true, then certainly, we might look at how he did it. One doesn't have to postulate that his explanation of his dreams is the true one, after all; if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith. However, in the meanwhile, I am prepared to put up a small sum of money that there will be no earthquake of magnitude greater than 4 in Willamette that day. Say, fifty bucks? I'll give reasonable odds.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'm don't know if it is going to happen. I don't pay much attantion to proficies until they happen. But, in saying that I'm going to laugh. Not that a 9.2 earthquike is funny or anything like that. I'm going to die laughing if a 2.9 earthquike happens on the 18th.
But, I think if a 2.9 happened it would be the preacher that was dislexic not God.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith.
So...are you saying that if it happened just the way he predicted -- magnitude, time and place -- your preferred explanation is that he subconsciously was noticing natural phenomena and those somehow percolated through his dreams?
Seems we have an answer to Dag's question...
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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I think Dag's question is perfectly valid. I also think it's all too easy to give yourself an "out" no matter if you believe his prediction or not. If there's no earthquake, believers can say we were spared through prayer (or any other reason they like). If there is an earthquake, doubters can say it's a coincidence, or that with all the prophecies people make one was bound to come true eventually.
I really don't see the outcome of this changing very many people's beliefs either way.
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Well, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If there's an earthquake, I'll send $100 to his ministry.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I expect this thread to be bumped on June 18th (hopefully by seismic forces )
I am personally skeptical about an earthquake happening at that specified time and magnitude, but Ill hold my tongue until the proof is in the pudding.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith.
So...are you saying that if it happened just the way he predicted -- magnitude, time and place -- your preferred explanation is that he subconsciously was noticing natural phenomena and those somehow percolated through his dreams?
Not necessarily, I'm just pointing out that the way the pastor explains it ain't necessarily the way it actually happened.
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Tom, you should probably state how specific your bet is, just to be fair. Are you only paying out if there's an earthquake of exactly 9.2, or anything over a certain level. Even Day's letter didn't sound too confident on the 9.2 rating, just that the number "seemed significant."
I don't personally think his dream is likely to come true, but I may take you up on it just because I like the odds.
quote:if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith.
So...are you saying that if it happened just the way he predicted -- magnitude, time and place -- your preferred explanation is that he subconsciously was noticing natural phenomena and those somehow percolated through his dreams?
Not necessarily, I'm just pointing out that the way the pastor explains it ain't necessarily the way it actually happened.
I do have to agree with KOM that if the event happens exactly as the pastor specified, that does not mean the pastor was FOR CERTAIN inspired.
broken clock is right twice a day, and all that jazz.
It certainly indicates that the evidence is in the pastors favor, but I am reminded by a certain man who predicted alot of things that came true at least according to some, who said in effect, "Signs do not produce faith."
An earthquake is not a good foundation (excuse the humor) for building ones house on.
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posted
I'll let the exact magnitude of the quake slide, actually. A quake of any size over 5, say, that also directly results in the most meaningful part of the dream: the rupture of the dam and flooding of Portland.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'll let the exact magnitude of the quake slide, actually. A quake of any size over 5, say, that also directly results in the most meaningful part of the dream: the rupture of the dam and flooding of Portland.
Sounds good to me, I'll still wager my $1.
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