posted
What damage would it do that would be worse than not showing up? That's an important unfilled blank.
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Then it comes down to faith. If G-d is truly all knowing, then He must know it will all work out.
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Hm. This could get very complicated. I realise I came on a big strong with my extended metaphor, so if it really offends or pains you, you should probably take it with a salt mine or two.
quote:The problem with your analogy is that God doesn't consider us "miniature basement people", but rather beings with our own will and responsible for our own actions.
Well, I consider my hypothetical miniature basement people having their own will and responsible for their own actions, too. The fact that they're small and live in my basement was just a fun detail. 'Cause I always wanted either to be small or small people to exist.
quote:Your first being that the ability to choose between good and evil is a "flaw."
Hm. Well, I think this is a matter of semantics. While I consider the ability to chose between right and wrong to be a major part of being human I think that the ability to chose evil and carry through with the choice and not feel all that bad about it could be considered a flaw. However, we can modify the sentence if you wish. The "flawed" comment is kind of irrelevent.
quote:If you create a race that has the capability to reason
In fact, you could lose that whole phrase and it wouldn't matter.
quote:some basement people who hadn't been born back when you'd proven yourself to their ancestors started demanding proof?
I don't demand proof. That's not part of my metaphor. But I can see what you mean. The laws that I laid down to my basement people still apply but, because of their apparant irrationality people have ceased to follow them. This is a form of demanding proof. However, because of my pledge to leave them to their own devices, I cannot do anything about it except, in this scenario, helplessly watch them continue to doom themselves.
First of all, coming back to the prediction (which is the whole point of this hypothetical situation), this doesn't apply because the God of the prediction clearly doesn't mind a bit of direct involvement in the Basement Auditorium.
Secondly, this is kind of moving away from my argument that humans (and basement people who are exactly like humans only much, much smaller) are independent, rational, reasoning, scientific beings who find it difficult to suspend belief on rules that apparantly have no moral value. If this is the case I should expect that without my interference my basement people to come up with their own rules about morality and truth and the use of gold based on what they can measure rather than what they can't.
My argument here is that if I become angry and punish them for being rational I am not being merciful, good or, especially, just.
My secondary argument comes from the point of view of the basement people: "If gold is so bad, why are there no direct consequences for our actions?" "Why, when we use gold do people not die?" "Why is uranium, which is far more apparantly dangerous, not banned instead?" The justified question I would hear from my basement people would be "So what is so bad about gold?"
Going one step further, who's to say that my bias against gold isn't just that; a bias.
If my miniature basement people disagree with me, am I more justified than them to impose my views simply because I created them? Am I always right or are some of the rules I originally imposed wrong or no longer applicable? If my house is unaffected by what my basement people do why should my world's laws (say gold is poisonous to me but only on large scales totally impossible to gather by the basement people) apply to them if they do not have bad repercussions on the basement people themselves?
posted
Well, God does promise punishments in the Bible for various things. Some fairly harsh ones, too.
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It's incredible how much we homos are capable. Not only (according to WBC) did we cause a major war with Iraq, Hurrican Katrina, and Sweden (yes, we caused Sweden), we're causing a flood too now. All is meant as punishment, sure, but if we so pleased, we could be pretty could contortionists.
"To the President and Congress of the United States:
Abdicate your positions and provide to put gays in as the new rulers of America. If you do not comply with our requests, we will have a gay pride parade in Washington, D.C.
Signed, The Gay Mafia"
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quote:What makes you think that God is punishing anyone?
This whole hypothetical argument of mine in this thread is based solely on the world as presented by the Oregon Pastor.
quote:I was asking Teshi, for whom I don't think the Bible would be a reliable source.
Within these parametres, the Bible is not only reliable, it is a major source of information, law and justice... Assuming the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is real and he approximates our general idea of him, the various Books associated with these religions are generally all somewhat true. In which case, in the past at least, God has dealt out punishments for violations of various rules, laws, and basic ideas.
[On a regular basis, though, you are correct. I do not consider the Bible (or the other Books) to be a valid source of law or morality except where it (they) does (do) not contradict my own present ideas. There are certain constants that the Bible has the right idea about, such as about murder.
I would treat a book of law like the Bible no more heavily than any other ancient law text. Certain things are still applicable, other things are not.]
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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As long as you don't mistake the Oregon Pastor's view as representative, knock yourself out. Although I am not sure why; he seems to be a bit of a nutter. Tilting at strawmen perhaps?
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Oh, I'm perfectly aware that the Oregon Pastor is a bit of 'nutter' as you say, and completely non-representative. As I noted much earlier in the discussion, I think too much. I'm reacting to what people say.
And I'm not tilting at strawmen (isn't that a bit of a mixed metaphor?) because that implies I would otherwise be tilting at more reasonable religion, which I don't do, at least very often.
Again, given a wacky situation, I just like to think it all the way through. And sometimes I go further than I should.
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No problem then. Just so we remember that Christians tend to think this kind of thing is wacky, too.
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Teshi, God created the human race perfect and flawless. Their freedom of choice was not a flaw, but a power, so their love could be real.
God did not forbid anything to Adam and Eve in all the universe, except for one simple, piddling little thing--don't eat the fruit of one tree in the Garden. It was a test of obedience that revealed their choice to trust God or to doubt God.
In Acts 17:28, the Apostle Paul declared of God: "...in him we live, and move, and have our being...."
Thus every breath we breath, is enabled by Him. Everything thought we think, every deed we perform, is enabled by the power of His Spirit within us sustaining us. Thus He knows from the inside out what it was like to be a prison guard at Auschwitz, and to be one of the hapless prisoners cast into the furnace. He must bear every sorrow of the victim, every sinful thought of the cruel despot or criminal, all of which is extraordinary torture to His perfectly pure and holy nature. The Crucifixion of Christ on Calvery is but a finite representation in space and time of the pain that our sins have caused the heart of God, from the very inception of sin. Yet He endures this as long as He can, He puts up with this terrible torment we cause Him, so that we can have an extended probation, and have a chance to be reclaimed and restored.
It is unreasonable for us to expect God to endure this forever. That would be true eternal torment. That is what many of us seem to will for God. But we also saw on Calvary that God must ultimately put sin away from Himself; He refused to embrace it and take it into Himself. He bore it and rejected it, even unto the death of Himself in a sense we cannot fully understand.
Since God did not spare His own Son, when He was "made to be sin for us" (by imputation), then neither can God spare anyone who is determined to hold onto their sins and never let them go.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: It's incredible how much we homos are capable. Not only (according to WBC) did we cause a major war with Iraq, Hurrican Katrina, and Sweden (yes, we caused Sweden), we're causing a flood too now. All is meant as punishment, sure, but if we so pleased, we could be pretty could contortionists.
"To the President and Congress of the United States:
Abdicate your positions and provide to put gays in as the new rulers of America. If you do not comply with our requests, we will have a gay pride parade in Washington, D.C.
Signed, The Gay Mafia"
Was that on the gay agenda? I think I remember it being right after the item about manicures being in.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: No problem then. Just so we remember that Christians tend to think this kind of thing is wacky, too.
How aure are you of this? Pat Robertson hasn't gotten to the point of making exact predictions yet, but he certainly does tend to blame stuff on gays, sins, or what have you. And you can't dismiss him as an isolated nut; millions of people send him money.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: You could argue that the children had no chance at living good meaningful lives as the entire society was steeped in iniquity. It was an act of mercy to end their lives so as to spare them from such a disgustingly wicked upbringing. [/QB]
So you could. You could also argue that bringing an unwanted child into the world is a bad thing, and that it is a mercy to abort it so that it won't know the misery of growing up unloved. Let me know when you intend to make either argument.
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quote:How aure are you of this? Pat Robertson hasn't gotten to the point of making exact predictions yet, but he certainly does tend to blame stuff on gays, sins, or what have you. And you can't dismiss him as an isolated nut; millions of people send him money.
2-3 million out of some 200+ million Christians in America.
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Oh, come on. You can't seriously be contending that this is a small number, even in the context of the whole US.
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Oh, come on. You can't seriously be contending that 1-1.5% in any way refutes the statement you called into question.
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I agree with Dag, I mean I think you could prove that 1.5 percent of Americans believe that their dog is a space alien from a distant galaxy sent to make peace with humanity... if only you could pose the question favorably to your desired results.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Oh, come on. You can't seriously be contending that 1-1.5% in any way refutes the statement you called into question.
1% of the population of Christians in America? I think that most certainly does refute the statement. It's not as though they are evenly spread; they are surely a majority in many counties, possibly even states. Order of magnitude, that's comparable to the LDS church; do you think its President (is that the right title?) is an isolated, powerless figure? And where did you get the 2-3 million number, anyway?
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quote:I think that most certainly does refute the statement.
Really. I assume you didn't interpret kmboots's statement "Just so we remember that Christians tend to think this kind of thing is wacky, too" as meaning ALL Christians think it's kind of wacky. After all, her statement would be directly refuted by the mere existence of THIS guy, so it's clear that's not what she meant.
Therefore, demonstrating that a small percentage of American Christians send money to the person you cited as a counterexample because he does something like this wacky guy in no way refutes kmboots's assertion that Christians (i.e., some non-negligible number of Christians) think this is wacky.
quote:do you think its President (is that the right title?) is an isolated, powerless figure?
Irrelevant to the statement you attempted to refute.
quote:And where did you get the 2-3 million number, anyway?
It's what I recollect about 700 club membership. If you have better figures, by all means cite them.
As best I can tell though, you've got nothing.
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As of 2004, the 700 Club's TV show has an estimated daily viewership is 922,000.
So not even a million people watch his show every day. So less than .5% of American Christians watch his show. There are many many more Mormons in America, and you can see just how much power we have here. Yeah, we control everything from Utah to...Eastern Idaho.
edit: Assuming a 25% growth rate for 2005 and 2006, up to 1.5 million people WATCH his show. I can guarantee a much smalled number of people contributing to it.
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Well, that makes 2 or 3 million who agree with comrade Robertson sufficiently to get off their arses and join a club. I do not think a factor ten is an unreasonable estimate for the number of people who just agree with him in general terms, but haven't gotten around to joining up. The Nielsen ratings I was able to find, in the region of 15 to 20 million viewers, agrees with this estimate. Then, I also think you are rather overestimating the number of Christians in the US. There is a difference between ticking a census form and going to church.
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quote:Originally posted by Boris: So not even a million people watch his show every day.
I think you've got the wrong emphasis there. About one million watch it every day. Over the course of a week, that builds up considerably.
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quote:Originally posted by Boris: So not even a million people watch his show every day.
I think you've got the wrong emphasis there. About one million watch it every day. Over the course of a week, that builds up considerably.
Uhh, so you are assuming that most of the people who watch this show don't watch it...okay, I gotta put it this way...religiously?
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quote:Well, that makes 2 or 3 million who agree with comrade Robertson sufficiently to get off their arses and join a club. I do not think a factor ten is an unreasonable estimate for the number of people who just agree with him in general terms, but haven't gotten around to joining up. The Nielsen ratings I was able to find, in the region of 15 to 20 million viewers, agrees with this estimate. Then, I also think you are rather overestimating the number of Christians in the US. There is a difference between ticking a census form and going to church.
You're numbers still don't add up. You're just flat wrong on this, KoM.
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No earthquake, no striking dead the legions of Oregon fornicators, no wailing and gnashing of teeth. And when it doesn't happen, this moron will find a way to either:
1. Change his story, moving the date back (ala Hal Linsdey, et. al.) but claiming it will still happen, or
2. Claim that something did happen, but that people misread his prediction. Maybe, in hindsight, his vision referred to an earthquake in Southeast Asia, a volcano in the South Pacific, or whatever natural disaster happens to occur tomorrow. If there's no natural disasters, maybe it refers to a shooting somewhere or a bus accident. He'll find a way to profit from it.
Heck, it worked for Joseph Smith. When the first copy of his divinely inspired text was stolen, he rewrote it then claimed that the original, when it resurfaced, had been supernaturally altered and the copy was the real, inspired one.
Oh, and here's my other prediction. Feel free to write it down and remember it:
The Rapture won't happen in your lifetime. So when you're old and dying, remember that.
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quote:Originally posted by MoonRabbit: Heck, it worked for Joseph Smith. When the first copy of his divinely inspired text was stolen, he rewrote it then claimed that the original, when it resurfaced, had been supernaturally altered and the copy was the real, inspired one.
You're woefully un-informed on this one on two points (and just plain wrong on every other point that you could possibly imagine here)...
1. The original never re-surfaced. 2. The section of the manuscript that was lost was a completely different section of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith didn't start over from the begining. The section that was lost was never re-translated.
Really, if you're going to bash on a historical figure, get your facts straight before doing it. And you really should stop reading those books on Mormons. Most of them are pretty stupid.
Nice try though, and thank you for your obvious lack of real research capabilities.
[ June 18, 2006, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Boris ]
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posted
Obviously, God has decided to spare us his wrath.
Or maybe the Pride parade just hasn't reached Main Street yet. After all, Oregon is a few hours behind.
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The Pride Parade in our area was a peaceful, happy "coming together" of community members of all walks of life, ages, genders, careers, families, and yes, orientations -- including the local Episcopal church and mission center that distributed blessings free for all.
What was most poignant were the people that have been "cast out" by certain faiths because of their orientation, and then the release of tension and gentling as they received their blessing from Fr. David and other church members.
Blessings that said very clearly we are all children of God, that God rejoices the day we are born, and continues to rejoice. That called for God's continuing love to fill all our hearts with love, and spread that love out into the community.
posted
MoonRabbit, it's usually not a good idea to use South Park as your sole source of information about a religion or ethnic group.
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You know, if God really wanted to punish a city or a country for sins, wouldn't it be more likely he'd focus on some of the sins he talked about a bit more? I mean, sure it seems he said homosexuality was wrong, but he had a lot more to say about greed, lack of compassion, and other things like "Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor."
Has anyone seen a political commercial where there was a lack of false witness being born against their neighbors?
And this comes from many people who are proud to describe their deep and abiding Christianity.
Put a bunch of them in one city, say Washington DC, and you have a much greater center of Sin than Oregon's Gay Pride Parade.
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So... does anyone think we'll be hearing from Ron after Pastor Cassandra turns out to have been just a little crazy? Or will he softly and silently fade away...
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Cassandra had true visions but was cursed so no one would believe her. Unless it happens (actually, even if it happens- considering he's got a following), this pastor is no Cassandra.
quote:Pastor Cassandra turns out to have been just a little crazy
Also, having a disaster not happen is not that big a blow. The Oregon Pastor can just say something along the lines of 'enough people prayed that it didn't happen, thank God.' Who's to say the dreams weren't actually real and God just changed His mind for some reason?
It's more complicated than true/false.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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You know, I have a hard time seeing this guy as someone to be reviled or ridiculed. He doesn't seem to be trying to get anything out of this. He seems to genuinely feel led to warn people.
I'm NOT a person of faith, but I find myself admiring his courage. I don't believe his dreams are true, but he doesn't seem to be demanding that I do. So I guess I think he's wrong ... but brave.
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Right now they're doing their sinful homsexual conga. Which means they'll all be underwater within twenty minutes.
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Ron's been a member since 2001, Lisa, although he doesn't post frequently, and he's hardly been advocating for this guy. Just said he thought people should know about it. Why in the world would you think it not happening would hurt his crediblity?
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