posted
This is something that's been putting me to thinking lately, and wondering how far into our society racial tension really extends.
Allow me to give a better introduction. My high school is very, ah, diverse. We have first generation immigrants from something like 55 nations, and a great racial variation. My estimate would put us at about 20% white, 25% Latino, 15% Asian, and 40% black. Let's not go into multiracial, because that gets to complicated for me to estimate at a moment's notice.
My first school was an elementary school in Wisconsin. There was little racial diversity, except for a small Asian-American population. I knew, growing up, one black person--a girl named Nicole in my class. And one latino guy, Alex.
We then moved to Georgia, where I went to a predominantly white, upper middle class middle school. I didn't much like it because "white upper middle class" became a mindset rather than a check on the census. I think it's where I first became conscious of race, of the idea of an "us" and "not us" on those terms.
My high school's different, but the past three years of skirting around racial issues has blinded me to the role they play in our lives. Today I heard something, and I decided think about it, rather more than just the passing remarks.
These are my observations:
~There is tremendous pressure on black kids not to "act white". I'm in the IB (International Baccalaureate) program at my school. Two of the black guys I know catch a lot of flak for "acting white" just for being in the program and getting involved in school programs. They have childhood friends who no longer talk to them because of it. This is more than just a little issue; this is a real struggle for these guys, and one that torments them still. Because of how they choose to dress and talk, they are ostracized.
~There is just as much of a disdain on white kids about "trying to be black". The upper middle class white families don't like the idea of their kids imitating the habits that have become associated with the "black gangsta" idea. Suddenly we have behaviors associated with different races. My unlce asks me if I'm a "wannabe" because I forget my belt one day so my pants hang low. My best friend, my Haley, she gets mocked by her friends from her WASP-y church because calling someone "honey" is talking black.
~And how about the Asian-American kids? That's what I see a lot of in my advanced classes. The girl from China is expected to be a math and science genius, and no one gives her credit for being a brilliant writer--she's just kinda slow, 'cause she's not good at math or science.
~Our lunchroom is totally segregated. These tables are Latino. These are black. These are Indian, and these are east Asian. These are the white table. This is where the IB kids eat. And sub-divide further. This is a Latino table, but only if you're an upper-class, hispanic (lighter skinned) Mexican immigrant. And woe betide you if you sit at the wrong table.
~Interracial couples get the most trouble. You see the stares trace them down the hall, and hear the whispers that the white girl dating the black guy must be trailer trash, and so on. Parents are against it too; when my Haley dated a black guy, his folks were glad to show they greatly disapproved of her. You can date them, but don't do anything permanent outside your race. I know couples who have broken up for that pressure.
~Black guys aren't supposed to be gay. Homosexuality is supposed to be a white thing. That's one of the things that plagued my ex for a while, and I know that he doesn't dare come out to his extended family because he already is told he's acting white often enough.
There's more, I know. But something--a comment abotu interracial couples and the stuff they have to deal with--set me thinking tonight, and when the snowball starts rolling, well. I'm just seeing more and more.
And it's just . . . I thought we were past this.
And it's just . . . this is a world I'll someday bring children into. But it's a world still divided into black and white. What happens if my children are interracial? What happens when I date outside my race?
Why is it like this? Suddenly I feel so terrified of the world, and the way it is. I can remember feeling like this once before, when I heard about the Columbine shooting and became depressed for a while afterwards. It is not deaths in this case, but simply a fear that the world is not a good place to live, still, and whatever I try to do, I'm just emptying the ocean with a bucket.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
1066, 1966, 2006. Different date, same... stuff.
It's older than time. You'll even find this in communities that seem rather homogenous to outsiders. Everybody is supposed to have their "place," and is supposed to live to the standards that their culture and peers set.
Adults see high schoolers -- kids see jocks, cheerleaders, stoners, geeks, "gangstas" and "preps."
People say that everything changes when you get out that age group, and that what seems socially important there is not so important in the real world. I just graduated a few weeks ago, and to a certain extent I suppose that statement is generally true. However I believe this particular aspect of high school is influenced by the world at large.
Most schools don't have the diversity that yours does. Mine does (did?), and I was left with the impression that the racial segregation I saw was another expression of the divisions that high school tends to create. Then I realized it was the other way around: the jock/geek/cheerleader divisions that high school creates are just a microcosm of the race and class divisions you get in the real world.
Maybe it's psychology, maybe it's survival. The world-state in Ender's Game worked because there was an Us (humans) versus Them (buggers). As soon as the war was over, it fell apart into various other "Us"es and "Them"s -- because the human "Us" is absolutley pointless without the bugger "Them." We draw social lines so we can put people into logical little boxes -- organize them; catagorize them; define who are friends and enemies are.
Sometimes you end up with people who don't "fit" anywhere, and they get picked on and bullied because they don't have the safety of a larger group. Every once in a while you get an individual who moves from one group to the other. Maybe it goes well, but maybe the first group feels betrayed. Maybe the second group doesn't accept him or her. The society at large reacts as you describe.
....And that's what I learned/observed in high school.
posted
I remember about two years ago our school newspaper, in a surprising but unsuccessful attempt at controversial journalism, talk about race and segregation on campus. Our university (in Lousiana) is about half-white and half-black and you could actually go into the cafeteria everyday for a week and not see more that two tables with persons of different races conversing.
Its funny cause I'd like to say I'm very open-minded. My best friend growing up was from India. I knew girls who were black or Hispanic. It took awhile for me to come to grips with but I've acknowledged to myself that I am still very uncomfortable around people of minority groups especially those who "are part of the stereotype." I don't understand hip-hop, I don't speak Spanish and feel weird when it is spoken around me, and I become scared when passing a group of black men.
Which is ironic because the love of my life is black.
Yes, I'm in a black/white interracial relationship. My mother didn't take the news well. Part of it is her own bias because she had some negative experiences growing up. The other part is that she claims to be worried about how I'll be treated. I think I've gotten bad looks from one or two old people while out at dinner, but that may all be in my head because having grown up where I did, I'm sensitive to racial issues. No one from my parents' generation has been outright rude to me or my boyfriend, though I have heard some of what is said behind my back. From my age class though the response has been overwhelmingly supportive. I did have one discussion with a black coworker my age who didn't like "black men dating white girls" but since she knows me and has seen our commitment to one another, she is happy for us. Depending where our relationship goes, I am not hesitant about having a biracial child or raising one in the world.
I think all this gives me hope. And you need hope to avoid becoming fearful and depressed about the situation. I think people are still aware of racial issues and are dealing with them pro-actively. Of course, we're not past all this! But things are slowly getting better. About half the gay men I know are black and they've been able to overcome pressure from their church, family and friends to live proud lives. Tables may be segregated, but in classrooms and in clubs even the most sheltered young people are hopefully being introduced to a wide variety of people who share their interests. While I can count on two hands the number of black students in my college (of 200), those who risked "acting white" (my bf included) have succeeded socially and academically and will bring children into the world to whom they will pass their values onto.
Its going take awhile especially given the attitudes in the South or the lack of diversity in other parts of the country. But look at how far we've come. All we can do is be a part of the solution and take steps in our daily lives to be aware and make others aware of the value of our fellow man.
posted
I went to a fairly diverse high school in Silicon Valley - if you count diversity in the different Asian nationalities. The school was about 70% Asian - Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean, Viet, Filipino, Indian, Indonesian, and Thai - in about that order. There were about 5% black, 10% Latino, and 15% white. The white kids were mostly eastern Europeans, Jewish, or both.
There was a large amount of mixing. The high school did segregate to some extent along the smart students/jocks/art & theater people lines, but not along racial ones.
In my particular group of close friends, we had Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean, Viet, Filipino, and white kids. In my larger group we had someone from just about every segment of the population. The only groups that really held themselves off were the fobs (no offense intended) who couldn't speak English well, and the South Asians.
Ironically enough, I'm now dating a South Asian. We met in college - in rural Indiana - and we've never once had a problem with stares or comments. There have been some problems with our families - his mom was quite worried about the white girl dating her boy until she met me, and my dad ... Well, he's a racist. An Indian isn't too bad, but Lord help me if I ever brought home a black boyfriend. He hasn't made any comments about Abhi, but I sense a some disapproval.
Anyways, I need to go to bed, so I'll cut this short. Just because your high school segregates itself, Joldo, doesn't mean that every high school does. And just because there are still some people who have their heads stuck up their arses on this issue (like my dad) doesn't mean that all or even most of society is that way.
Besides, everyone knows biracial kids are the cutest - we need to have more interracial dating to pretty up America. Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I grew up in Hawaii, which was 85% Asian/Pacific Islander at the time, with 14.9% being white and 0.1% being everything else, including blacks, latinos, etc. As a result, my view on the racial issue is pretty biased.
In fact, it's so biased and so bizarre, especially after having lived in the mainland U.S. for about four years, that I'm going to need more time to compose a cogent reply.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I grew up in the northwest Chicago suburbs. We had people in all my schools of many races. My "cliques" if you will were "the smart kids," "the band/choir geeks," and "the drama/performing arts geeks." There were kids of all races in all 3 cliques, and I didn't really pay too much attention to "the others." As a result, race never meant anything to me.
The 1st time I recall that someone's race meant anything at all to me was on a bus in Denver. I sat down next to a guy, didn't think anything of it. Guy across the aisle looks at me and goes off on a bender about what a racist I am simply becuz I'm white. To say I was flabbergasted is to understate. It was only then that I looked around and realized that I was the only white guy on the bus. The rest of the people on the bus were pretty cool though, told the guy to sit down and shut up, that I'd not done anything that would make me seem remotely racist, and if I was it was becuz of people like him anyway. He got off at the next stop ranting about how he couldn't trust all these race-traitors.
Since then, I've watched a bit closer. For the most part I still don't care, but when I see a gorup of black kids dressed in "gangsta" stuff, I do avoid them. That's about it though. I still don't really see it as that much of an issue. If someone's a jerk, they're a jerk, and their race has nothing to do with it. If they're a great person, same deal. People are people, that's how I see it.
Posts: 1323 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: It gets better after high school, I think.
Did for me! MY GOD did it ever get better!
Part of it, (a hugish part) is that in public highschool, the kids have all been thrown together regardless of their personal esthetics, beliefs, or level of intelligence, or really any other distinguishing factor. You're made to be part of a community, and yet you are in it with people who you would otherwise never talk to or see. This isn't racial, but it does become visible along racial lines.
The guys (it was a catholic boys school:p), who I went to school with were mostly guys I would NEVER want to socialize with now, or then, but we had to deal with eachother anyway. I like to think I elevated myself from a group that was too slow or too different from me by getting into a better school than most of the others, and as a result I get to pick my school friends from a group bound to have more in common with me. Everybody goes to highschool, but not everyone will be doing what you will be doing in 5 years.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I also went to a high school which had a high minority percentage (around 40) and students from all over the world. I also went to a college which was listed by Princeton Review as one of the top 20 most diverse colleges.
The good news is that I can't relate to any of your anecdotes, so perhaps it is just the unfortunate circumstances of your particular high school.
I do have more to add, but I must sign off now. But have heart--it's not that bad everywhere (and probably, sigh, worse in other places, but your school probably isn't the norm).
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
At my private school, the upper division had...three black students? I think? Probably a larger proportion of Asians and Indians than would be found in the rest of the United States. Everyone was cliquey, but it wasn't segregated by race. It was like, the drama kids were a clique....the kids who felt the need to own a different outfit for every day of school were a clique, the models were a clique. But everyone generally came from the same socioeconomic background, so there really wasn't room for cliques based on much besides personality and extracurriculars.
My university is much, much more diverse, but there still aren't generally race divisions. I mean, the foreign Hispanic kids (a lot of the students are Hispanic) hang out together a lot, but no one looks at them funny if they have Asian or black or white friends or girl/boyfriends.
posted
I have encountered some racism regarding interracial dating specifically. There is a hate group on the Facebook of my school called something like "Asian Students Against Asian girls dating fat ugly white people."
Well its all in the title. Anyway that is about the worst example, and it shows how confident the members are that they can only participate in this "discussion" about racial equality on facebook, but would NEVER say such a thing in real life. If you can't say it to my face, you can't say it at all, as far as I am concerned.
Edit: I should add, that my school has a very large asian population, and in some majors (like mine, music) Asian students outnumber white students 2 to 1. This facebook group isn't a reaction to minority opression, its just lashing out.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Now one must consider: The United States arguably has one of the most tense racial situations in the world. Are there 'major' problems in today's world? That depends on your definition. And with all of these problems, one has to consider; race is an important and tense issue here, but how many other nations are so diverse as we are? Many are diverse, but in such large quantities of diversity in concentrated areas?
Our racial tensity is due to the fact that we are so diverse, and we are clumped together in many areas; IMHO.
Posts: 96 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I do think it's better here in the U.S. than anywhere else. We are the most diverse with the least tensions of any country there is. Less diverse countries may have lower tensions, but only because of their lack of diversity, I think.
My company has people from all over the world, and we all seem to get along very well. In my little design group I have one guy from southeast asia, one guy from india, one guy from chile, me (paleskinned U.S. female), two white guys from Georgia, someone who is gay, and a very dark-skinned U.S. guy. On my floor there are people from all the continents (except Antarctica), people who immigrated here themselves, not even counting the 2nd and 3rd generation folks. My company realized the benefits from diversity, and we believe in it strongly. It seems to work well for us. I see every reason to be optimistic looking forward.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:I have encountered some racism regarding interracial dating specifically. There is a hate group on the Facebook of my school called something like "Asian Students Against Asian girls dating fat ugly white people."
I'm betting most of the members are asian guys and frankly, they're just bitter because rarely ever does anyone but an asian girl date an asian guy unless there's money involved - and since a large number of asian girls want the white guys, our selection pool is somewhat slimmed.
I don't mind, though. Hapa kids are the most beautiful people on earth. Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I do think it's better here in the U.S. than anywhere else. We are the most diverse with the least tensions of any country there is. Less diverse countries may have lower tensions, but only because of their lack of diversity, I think.
*cough*Canada*cough*
Especially The greater Toronto area (GTA). Toronto is one of the most culturally diverse cities on Earth, hands down, and as a young black man who has lived in the GTA all his life, and who counts people of several different races among my very best friends in the world, I'd have to say that we have it pretty darn good here as far as racial tension goes. In fact, it's never been an issue for me personally. Who I'm friends with, who I date, how I feel I should act... I can honestly say that I've never felt that my race has been a factor in any of it.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Is one city in Canada really a good estimator for the entire nation?
I don't think any other nation on earth has the sort of integration of the same vast number of different races and religions that we have in America. And for how complex it is, and for how volatile it COULD be, I think it works splendidly most of the time. All you ever read or hear about are the trouble spots, never will there be a news story that says "Whites getting along with blacks!" in a major headline. Not in the last 20 years anyway.
My high school had maybe six, seven black kids, all but one of which were driven in daily from Detroit. We had a fair share of Asians, I never counted, as quite frankly I honestly don't single out Asians and Whites as different races, they sort of blur together. It's accents that trip me up a bit, not colors. The school was probably 95% white though. We didn't even really have cliques either. To say nothing of the fact that half the school didn't even eat in the cafeteria (we either left campus, or spread out into the classrooms, hallways, or outside), lunch tables were always just large groups of friends, never defined by social groups. I guess my group of friends could have been called band geeks, but anyone who sat down with us, who actually fit in with us, was easily accepted without question.
I guess I live in a bit of a bubble. I'm in white suburbia, surrounded on all sides by huge minority populations. Detroit on one side, Pontiac and Flint on the other, and a huge Chaldean population to the south, and, well, nothing but trees to the north
But whenever I step outside my bubble, I don't usually find problems with other races, well, except sometimes in Detroit. I get a lot of anti-white hostility whenever I go to primarily black areas of Detroit, or the inner suburbs. Mostly I just stay away from the areas I know I'm not wanted these days. And so does everyone else, which is why those areas remain poor.
To switch gears, race is rather narrowly defined in the restaurant where I work. By this I mean, from the point of view of the employees to the customers. You wouldn't believe how often I hear a server end a story with "Well, they're black." And it isn't because any of these people are racist, hell, one of the black servers was talking about it yesterday. It's because it's a well known fact (blah, fact, whatever), that the black customers, are needy, cheap, and tip like crap. Personally I think it's a Detroit thing, not a black thing, and since most everyone in Detroit is black, they get stuck with a racial label. But that's the way it is. Servers hate waiting on black tables because they are the cheapest, leave bad tips, complain the whole time, and in general are a pain in the ass. So the servers also feel like giving them good service is a waste of time in effort, if the outcome never changes.
Whites customers go either way, it's hit or miss. And the Chaldeans are all considered whiney, but excellent tippers. They always give at least 20%, and so both groups always get excellent service, because the server knows that his or her good work will be well rewarded.
None of this has to do with race, it has to go with socio-economic geography. But people don't tell you where they live, you just see that there is one commonality between them, race, and that's what gets the stereotype.
I think deep down this nation doesn't as much of a race problem as it does a poor problem.
I am disturbed however about insular abuse that gets dealt out. Like Joldo said, when black people act white, they are called sell outs, when white people try and act black, they are just trying to be cool, or they are lame. As if all white people by definition AREN'T cool, and all black people are. The problem there isn't interracial relations, it's intraracial relations. Races preying on themselves are just as bad as cross race crimes. But no one from outside the race can fix it. You can't blame white culture for the fact that it is by its nature shunned by the thug/gangsta/rapper black culture. Until they make a conscious decision to not prop up men who talk about their bitches and hoes like they are property, or elk to be hunted, or any of a dozen other problems I see with the culture, it will never be fixed, and will probably always be looked down upon by everyone else.
And there can never be too much said about the role parents play in passing their prejudices down to their children. I think parental intolerance, and the media is to blame for the bulk of the problem. I just don't see how the media itself is going to fix their part of it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:And there can never be too much said about the role parents play in passing their prejudices down to their children. I think parental intolerance, and the media is to blame for the bulk of the problem. I just don't see how the media itself is going to fix their part of it.
I agree with this, and as a parent, I try to be aware of what I project to my children.
I don't claim to be perfect, so when I do criticize a group of people, I make sure that I point out why I'm being critical. For example, a large group of young hispanics like to sit on their front porch, blast their music, and be generally disruptive. This isn't a racial issue, it's a social issue that was brought on by the influx of a different group into a pretty calm neighborhood, and their behaviour wouldn't be any less disrespectful if they were all white. I guess it's more a matter of class than race. I'm definitely a classist.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I went to erosomniac' high school, so my view on the issue is probably also a little skewed.
I feel like race isn't a big deal in Hawaii, but that could be because there I'm in the racial majority. It didn't seem like people chose to segregate themselves by race. Most of the groups seemed well mixed except for that one group of white girls.
I noticed a change when I got to college in California. In particular, all of the Asian kids hang out together and all of the Hawaii Asians hang out separately. I belong to neither group, and for that both groups tend to give me looks when I pass. I'm sorry. I don't fit into cliques like that. I don't want to be defined by what state I grew up in or what country my great-grandparents emigrated from. I'll choose my own friends instead of have them handed to me, thanks.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I'm in the racial minority here; the city is 67% black.
quote:The United States arguably has one of the most tense racial situations in the world.
Do what now?
I casually dated a British guy...who for some reason thought that only black men had children out-of-wedlock and that they were only proud of their children not in the soccer mom "my kid is so great" sense but because they were somehow inferior and enjoyed "spreading their seed" or something. I thought he was kidding, at first.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Is one city in Canada really a good estimator for the entire nation?
I don't think any other nation on earth has the sort of integration of the same vast number of different races and religions that we have in America. And for how complex it is, and for how volatile it COULD be, I think it works splendidly most of the time.
Actually I don't think that Toronto is really that different from the nation at large. Canada has at least as much racial diversity as the States, and by all accounts, fewer hate crimes and such. Granted, we do have a smaller population & population density, but let's not pretend that America is the be all and end all in racial tolerance in the world today. Don't forget that racial segregation wasn't all that long ago, and while the U.S. has certainly come a very long way in a short time, Canada was there first.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I went to a school that was about 1/4th American, 2/3rds Chinese and a sprinkling of just about every other country you could think of. There were a total of 3 African Americans in my high school.
Yet I really can say that though Americans and Chinese often hung out with each other and made friendships they were not exclusive at all. If somebody Chinese wanted to hang out with the Americans it happened, Somebody American might grow up and start hanging out with the Chinese crowd. I knew a kid who learned Cantonese just by hanging out with the Chinese kids.
Europeans/Middle Easterners/Southern Asians were all completely welcome wherever they decided to hang out.
We had White people acting Black, but nobody looked down on them for it. I really cannot say where all the racial tension you seem to be experiencing comes from. Hong Kong (though not perfect) is a good example of many races working together in harmony. It can be done.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Actually I don't think that Toronto is really that different from the nation at large. Canada has at least as much racial diversity as the States, and by all accounts, fewer hate crimes and such. Granted, we do have a smaller population & population density, but let's not pretend that America is the be all and end all in racial tolerance in the world today. Don't forget that racial segregation wasn't all that long ago, and while the U.S. has certainly come a very long way in a short time, Canada was there first.
From Wikipedia: Canada is a very ethnically diverse nation. According to the 2001 census, it has 34 ethnic groups with at least one hundred thousand members each. The largest ethnic group claims to be "Canadian" (39.4%) because many Canadians consider themselves to be "ethnically Canadian", followed by English (20.2%), French (15.8%), Scottish (14.0%), Irish (12.9%), German (9.3%), Italian (4.3%), Chinese (3.7%), Ukrainian (3.6%) and North American Indian (3.4%).
There are no Hispanic or African American populations listed there. There are a JILLION reasons why that might be I would imagine its not that they would not feel welcome in Canada. But then again until there is a sizeable African American population and a Hispanic one within Canada I really do not think its ABSOLUTELY true that Canada would handle it just fine.
Take credit for sucessfully integrating your European minorities but the US more less figured out how to do THAT in relatively the same time period as Canada.
As for Asians who I must admit were not treated rightly initially within the US (and I know nothing of how they were treated in Canada, Ill have to look that up)
Again from Wikipedia: A third significant minority is the Asian American population (4.2%), most of whom are concentrated on the West Coast and Hawaii, as well as in New York, Boston, Houston, and other urban centers.
And in Canada: Chinese (3.7%)
Now granted you MAY have more Chinese people than the US, but the US has much more ASIAN people within its borders.
When Canada experience the VERY quick immigration of people from either Mexico or Africa I would request you THEN make an analysis of how well Canada deals with minority groups. As you are right the density just is not the same.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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The American superiority complex always amuses me... And I know exactly why.
In all seriousness though, I didn't mean to start some kind of tit for tat analysis of which country is better with racial relations. I just didn't like the implication that America is in a league of its own, and is the only country on the planet that manages to "successfully" deal with such diversity.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Hispanic populations are included within white totals, for both the US and Canada. I've been looking at the census data for both countries, about to post comparisons. But interestingly enough, from the 2000 census for both countries Canada not only has a larger percentage of Hispanics than the US, they also have a larger number.
Canada has 35,305,818 self-identified Hispanics as of the 2000 census. The US has 18,753,075.
That's 6.6% of our population vs. 12% of theirs.
Where is your proof that they are included in White populations? (Not saying you are wrong just curious.)
neo-dragon: I think the very first post in this thread goes against the idea that America is the standard by which other countries should be measured. I consider it nothing short of a miracle that America only borders with 2 other countries (well 3 if you include cuba) and neither of those countries has ever been REALLY hostile towards the US. VERY few countries have been so fortunate.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: There are no Hispanic or African American populations listed there. There are a JILLION reasons why that might be I would imagine its not that they would not feel welcome in Canada. But then again until there is a sizeable African American population and a Hispanic one within Canada I really do not think its ABSOLUTELY true that Canada would handle it just fine.
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When Canada experience the VERY quick immigration of people from either Mexico or Africa I would request you THEN make an analysis of how well Canada deals with minority groups. As you are right the density just is not the same.
Take a look at my numbers and sources, BB. Then I really think you owe neo-dragon an apology.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
BB, my proof is in the two links in my second post, which go to the census data for the two countries. Sorry for the cross-posting.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:There is tremendous pressure on black kids not to "act white".
There is just as much of a disdain on white kids about "trying to be black".
In my experience, the former uses 'white' in place of 'WASPy/preppy/successful'. For some reason, a large part of the young black community despises someone who conforms to what has historically been a white path to success. Colin Powell is a good example.
The latter uses 'black' to mean 'ghetto'. If you like rap music and wear hip-hop clothes, then you're 'trying to be black'. Of course, ghetto != black just like preppy != white. The world's a far more interesting and nuanced place than that.
The sad part is that there's no reason why one person of either race can't be a full member of either stereotype. The NBA and rap deals aren't a young black man's only path to success, just like investment banking isn't the white man's only path to success.
I can't speak on the Asians and Hispanics, because I honestly didn't go to school with any.
The other side of things is that it's high school. High schools are gonna be segregated, in some form or another. It's a very cliquey age. I'd bet at eros and Celaeno's high school, even though most of the students were islanders there were still jock tables, cool tables, nerd tables, cheerleader tables, and all kinds of other invisible uncrossable lines. Race just happens to provide an easy way to draw those lines. The lines get drawn even if you take race out of it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: BB, my proof is in the two links in my second post, which go to the census data for the two countries. Sorry for the cross-posting.
Here is what my research came up with and I used the Census General too. You were right that sometimes Hispanics are included in White population totals.
but: # There are 520,260 Hispanics in Canada, representing 1.8% of Canada's total population of 29,118,770
I really do not think there are more Latinos in Canada then the US. But hey if I am wrong though I wont apologize for being wrong (since I do not think being wrong in this case warrents an apology) I will certainly admit defeat and concede to his superior understanding of the facts.
---------------- This site claiming to cite the Census Bureau says
in fact, the number of Hispanics in the U.S. today is greater than the entire population of Canada, and is growing at a faster rate than the general population, more than 60 percent in the last decade.
What do you think?
I think the proof is in the pudding, or in the rapidly evolving American situation, "The Proof is in the Bean dip." Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I thought 18 million seemed low for the US, so I'm not going to argue that. . that could easily be the difference between the 2000 and 2004 numbers. But don't you think the Canadian census page is more reliable than a marketing page? My numbers also show that the percentage for African Americans is about the same in both countries, please note, and that Canada has a higher percent minority population over all.
What I think you should apologize for, though, is not being wrong but being pretty rude in the way you said it.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Crap, my apologies, I just noticed that the source I thought was for Canadian data was not. I'll remove and keep looking.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Now I feel awfully silly -- I can find breakdowns for Canada by province, but nothing for the country as a whole for free. (And I'm not paying $60 for a customized census report from the Canadian government.)
The best I can do is the CIA factbook numbers for both countries. . .
Canadian:
quote: British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed background 26%
US:
quote: white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.) note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)
The British Isles, French, and other European numbers for Canada add up to 66% "white," as opposed to 81.7% listed for the US, but that "mixed background" percentage means that it would be difficult to state which country is more ethnically diverse based on those numbers.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:What I think you should apologize for, though, is not being wrong but being pretty rude in the way you said it.
I reread all my posts and to be honest I am not sure where I was rude. I certainly was not trying to be, but you are welcome to show me how I could have rephrased my remarks in such a manner as to leave the polite manner of my remarks beyond question. Finally this is not a reason in of itself but I do not see neo dragon complaining.
But I did make a mistake in that I did not cite the website that stated the Hispanic population in the US was greater then the entire population of Canada, let me see if I can find it again and Ill edit this post. I too tried to use the CIA factbook for Canada but that just did not work for me as you cannot take the europeans and latinos and split them.
In anycase ElJay I honestly try to be polite to those I disagree with. I firmly believe in disagreeing without being disagreeable.
posted
Maybe we should just agree that both countries are very ethnically diverse and call it a day. Anyway, there's really no need for anyone to apologize about anything, though I truly appreciate ElJay's desire to keep things civil, and efforts to support my claims of comparable diversity in Canada (which I'm sorry to admit I can't actually find reliable numbers to support either).
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Given the circumstances, BlackBlade, I think I'll chalk it up to a difference in communication styles.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I went to a school that was about 1/4th American, 2/3rds Chinese and a sprinkling of just about every other country you could think of.
A question to clarify: were the Chinese kids not American?
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:There are no Hispanic or African American populations listed there. There are a JILLION reasons why that might be I would imagine its not that they would not feel welcome in Canada. But then again until there is a sizeable African American population and a Hispanic one within Canada I really do not think its ABSOLUTELY true that Canada would handle it just fine.
Now, although this is true in general- most of Canada is indeed white- many cities such as Toronto and Vancover do include "sizeable" non-white (for lack of a better term) populations. The numbers are hard to tell because many do identify as "Canadian" rather than anything else.
quote:I have encountered some racism regarding interracial dating specifically. There is a hate group on the Facebook of my school called something like "Asian Students Against Asian girls dating fat ugly white people."
I'm betting most of the members are asian guys and frankly, they're just bitter because rarely ever does anyone but an asian girl date an asian guy unless there's money involved - and since a large number of asian girls want the white guys, our selection pool is somewhat slimmed.
I don't mind, though. Hapa kids are the most beautiful people on earth.
Well, surprisingly it is alot of girls, with a fair number of guys in it. They are all Asian of course...
But my point was partly that this kind of acting out on facebook, or anywhere, would be unnacceptable if the races took different roles. There can be no "white students against white girls dating black men." Even that doesn't include the derogative language of the above group, which would be something like "skanky ganster black men," or what have you. Of course that would be totally unfair, injurious, an ad hominim attack against a group that isn't even a group, just some phantom enemy.
Anyway I was totally mortified to discover one friend from many of my classes was a member, and this necessarily made me feel differently about her. As a large (though not fat) and not particularly Brangelina-esque white person, I guess my friend thinks I shouldn't be dating Asians because of "race inequality issues." Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Waow, I just read all your posts on this topic!!! It is incredible for me to read you talk about "races". I mean now all countries are getting mixed and very diversed. In France (which is an old country, I agree) we would never talk about "races" considering Black or Asian people or White, we talk about "origins"; race meaning human race in general only. I always thought we were a welcoming country where all people mix without too many problems. I have many friends of many origins and all of us are French before being Muslim, Black, Jew or simply White!!
Well, of course, if you go to Paris where I live now you 'll see a Black district, a Chinese district and so on. But still it never seemed to be such a problem.
However, now that I have read and thought on all your message (thank you!!) I am really wondering on all Ijust wrote. I know France has its part of racists, coming from any communities. As all developped countries there are problems with immigrants that confuse the debate, and I won't forget this strange law against all religious signs in public areas that increases some integration problems.. I don't know if the USA or Canada are the more diversed. I don't think France is still as welcoming as it pretends to be. I just hope that the cultural acceptation I see among young people like me is going to develop.
To answer to your first message Joldo, I really believe that in the teenages we all need to find a community where we can identify. I guess "race" is the best way of identification. I went to Ireland for studying and I found very surprising and funny to see that when we are abroad, the most important thing for all of us is our country of origin, we were French, there were the Americans, without questions of race, but lots of patriotic solidarity.
Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:But my point was partly that this kind of acting out on facebook, or anywhere, would be unnacceptable if the races took different roles. There can be no "white students against white girls dating black men." Even that doesn't include the derogative language of the above group, which would be something like "skanky ganster black men," or what have you. Of course that would be totally unfair, injurious, an ad hominim attack against a group that isn't even a group, just some phantom enemy.
Didn't I tell you that I'm pretty sure the group was a joke? I mean, I'm in the "Hit that B*tch with a Bottle" Facebook group, and I don't go around busting bottles of champagne upside people's heads on a regular basis.
posted
I need to stop this conversation right now, because my brain went hyper-obscene just then. If anyone needs me, I'll be cramming a bar of soap up my nostrils to wash it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I went to a school that was about 1/4th American, 2/3rds Chinese and a sprinkling of just about every other country you could think of.
A question to clarify: were the Chinese kids not American?
Went to school in Hong Kong, China. So the Chinese kids were 100% Chinese.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ionienne: Waow, I just read all your posts on this topic!!! It is incredible for me to read you talk about "races". I mean now all countries are getting mixed and very diversed. In France (which is an old country, I agree) we would never talk about "races" considering Black or Asian people or White, we talk about "origins"; race meaning human race in general only.
Yeah, it's not racial problems in France, I believe they call them 'social problems.'
Don't have to go very far back to find racial-centric problems in France- riots 6 months ago maybe?
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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