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Author Topic: Hamas threatens to target schoolchildren
Eisenoxyde
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This is just getting even crazier...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885884391&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin al-Kassam, on Sunday threatened to attack infrastructure facilities inside Israel, including schools, hospitals and universities. ... "If they continue with these attacks, we will strike at targets in Zionist territory that we have not struck until now," said the organization's spokesman.

Jesse

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Rakeesh
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I wonder who the first will be to point out that since Israel is targeting Palestinian power and water supplies, they are to blame for Hamas targeting Israeli children facilities.

You know, ignoring the fact that Hamas is not known for having a setting between 'off' and 'murder civilians' when it comes to 'resisting' Israel.

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Nato
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[Frown]
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I wonder who the first will be to point out that since Israel is targeting Palestinian power and water supplies, they are to blame for Hamas targeting Israeli children facilities.

You know, ignoring the fact that Hamas is not known for having a setting between 'off' and 'murder civilians' when it comes to 'resisting' Israel.

They have an off switch?
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Tstorm
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*Flips the Hamas 'Off' switch*

I don't think it's wired right...

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Juxtapose
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You know, since Israel's been targing Palestinian infrastructure, they'll sort of have brought in on themselves if Hamas carries out it's threat.

Totally pwned.

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airmanfour
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In the tradition of Israeli one-upsmanship I believe that as a response to Hamas' announcement the Israelis may well take out everyone. And Hamas will have brought it on not only themselves, but everyone else.
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Reticulum
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My advice to Israel: Nuke them. Worked for the U.S., can work for you too. If this seems to extreme, threaten to nuke. Then, if they keep going afterwords, carry out your plan. The scary thing about Israel, is that not only do they have one of the worlds most powerful armies, but that they will send it out right after they say will. If Israel threatens to nuke, you can be damn sure that in one week, we'll be hearing about the nuclear bombardment of Palestine.

But honestly, with all of the things that have happened in the middle east, and to Israel, (not just Israel, but the entire middle east hates them, cut them a break) I say it would save many lives to end it with Nukes. Would there be retaliation? Most likely, but I say it would be worth it. After all, the U.S. saved hundreds of thousands of lives nuking Japan, really.

Just my humble opinion.

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MightyCow
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Some things about living in the US bum me out, but when I see things like this going on, I realize it's not so bad. At least our armed conflicts aren't on home soil.

Reticulum: I don't see how nuking anyone would solve anything. It would only make things worse. There are so many generations of conflict over there, it's not as though things are bad because Israel isn't killing enough people.

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Lyrhawn
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Just when you wonder how things could get any worse...

I'm wondering just how much firepower Hamas will bring to bear if they reenter the fray, and how brutal their tactics will be. Whether they've been encouraging other groups to do the work they used to, or they've really been doing it themselves all along, which seems silly, to keep up the pretense I mean, then either way this is only making things worse. How long after they start murdering the sick and young so brazenly will it be before Israel responds with even more force?

As much as their threat is an attempt to get Israel to back down, it's also an attempt to bait them, and given the history between those two, it will likely succeed. Mahmoud Abbas needs to push harder, as hard as he can, to get a vote going to recognize Israel. If he waits too long, the people might be energized by whatever reprisals Israel brings to be too angry to vote to support it. I don't expect Israel will back off, nor Hamas, but someone has to be the voice of reason.

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Reticulum
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Yes, someone does. And that someone, is nuclear weapons.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Reticulum:
My advice to Israel: Nuke them. Worked for the U.S., can work for you too. If this seems to extreme, threaten to nuke. Then, if they keep going afterwords, carry out your plan. The scary thing about Israel, is that not only do they have one of the worlds most powerful armies, but that they will send it out right after they say will. If Israel threatens to nuke, you can be damn sure that in one week, we'll be hearing about the nuclear bombardment of Palestine.

But honestly, with all of the things that have happened in the middle east, and to Israel, (not just Israel, but the entire middle east hates them, cut them a break) I say it would save many lives to end it with Nukes. Would there be retaliation? Most likely, but I say it would be worth it. After all, the U.S. saved hundreds of thousands of lives nuking Japan, really.

Just my humble opinion.

Why would we want to nuke our own land? It'd be like the US nuking David Koresh. It would work, but we'd lose more than we'd gain.
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TomDavidson
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The sad thing about this is that Lisa's not talking about the hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
Some things about living in the US bum me out, but when I see things like this going on, I realize it's not so bad. At least our armed conflicts aren't on home soil.

On the other hand, people don't steal children in Israel. There are trade offs. Havah and I used to leave Tova in her stroller in the front of the store while we shopped. No one thinks twice about doing that, actually. It was quite a shock to get back here and have to be so scared of letting her out of our sight.
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Lisa
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No, Tom, their lives are not my first priority. Our lives are, and always will be. Theirs will always come a very distant second or third. And numbers don't matter, either. One innocent life on our side is worth more than all the innocent lives on their side combined.
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Rakeesh
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Wow...what possible paradigm are you operating from where that is not a horribly evil way of thinking?

It's one thing to say, "One innocent life of ours is worth the lives of thousands or millions of their soldiers, politicians, etc." But to say that your lives are actually worth more?

That's...that's vile. What horrible ego. I wasn't sure if I'd ever agree with the criticisms some make of you, Lisa. But that is an opinion that terrorists everywhere would empathize with.

You share a mindset with terrorists and murderers and genocidal maniacs. You must think they are animals, to be able to say that one of your lives is worth more than ALL of theirs.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Wow...what possible paradigm are you operating from where that is not a horribly evil way of thinking?

It's one thing to say, "One innocent life of ours is worth the lives of thousands or millions of their soldiers, politicians, etc." But to say that your lives are actually worth more?

"Worth more" -- to us. I'm not speaking objectively here (though I do think the lives of people who want to live in peace are worth inestimably more than those who consider the butchery of innocents to be something to celebrate).

Rakeesh, may you never find yourself in a situation where you have to make such choices. But if you ever do, I assure you that you'll either place a higher value on you and yours than on the enemy who is trying to destroy you, or that enemy will, in fact, destroy you.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
That's...that's vile. What horrible ego. I wasn't sure if I'd ever agree with the criticisms some make of you, Lisa. But that is an opinion that terrorists everywhere would empathize with.

And they'd be wrong.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
You share a mindset with terrorists and murderers and genocidal maniacs. You must think they are animals, to be able to say that one of your lives is worth more than ALL of theirs.

Let me say this one more time. And let me make it as clear as I possibly can. I have never, ever, ever even suggested that they are less than human. I could not hate them as I do if I considered them less than human. One does not hate a dog for biting. They are all too human, and they can be judged as such. What do you think the Nazis were? Horses?

The very fact that they can choose to act in a civilized fashion and choose nevertheless to behave as barbarians is justification for what I'm saying.

You need to learn to distinguish between moral positions. What I'm saying is moral because we aren't terrorists. We are normal people, just trying to live our lives. As such, our lives are worth more than murderous terrorists and their supporters. Yes, I said "and their supporters". Even if those supporters have never actually engaged in terrorism.

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Rakeesh
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Lisa,

quote:
"Worth more" -- to us. I'm not speaking objectively here (though I do think the lives of people who want to live in peace are worth inestimably more than those who consider the butchery of innocents to be something to celebrate).
I do not truly consider someone who believes "One of mine equals all of theirs" and doesn't mean it as just a guideline, but literally like you do...I do not think you want to live in peace. You want to live in peace through conquest. Which, if successful is merely the absence of war. Not peace.

quote:
Rakeesh, may you never find yourself in a situation where you have to make such choices. But if you ever do, I assure you that you'll either place a higher value on you and yours than on the enemy who is trying to destroy you, or that enemy will, in fact, destroy you.
If, right this instant I were given the choice by a genie, "Sacrifice the life of your next door neighbor, or sacrifice the lives of every single fundamentalist Islamic person throughout the world, whether or not they have committed any crimes themselves specifically," I would not take the latter choice. I would be ashamed of my neighbor if he spared me if given the same choice.

quote:
Let me say this one more time. And let me make it as clear as I possibly can. I have never, ever, ever even suggested that they are less than human. I could not hate them as I do if I considered them less than human. One does not hate a dog for biting. They are all too human, and they can be judged as such. What do you think the Nazis were? Horses?

Such an incredible arithmetic of slaughter-a puffy phrase, yes-is the essence of regarding others as less than human. All of them are worth less than one of mine. Us and them. Human and barbarian. Human and animal. Human and evil human. There's only a hair's breadth difference between all of them.

I hear you speak with such intense hatred, and I find it impossible to believe you when you say you think they aren't animals. I believe you feel they are humans who have chosen to behave like snarling, vicious animals. Even though you still-intellectually-regard them as human, the essence remains the same.

I'll go one step further. If I lived in WWII and a genie gave me the choice, "Your neighbor's life agaisnt the lives of every single registered Nazi party member, take your pick," I would not spare my neighbor's life. And I'd be ashamed of him for sparing me.

I cannot condone murdering people just by association. 'Normal' people may-and do frequently-do that, but that does not make it moral. And it does not make it better.

You need to recognize that there are more than two settings of just 'Off' and 'On', 'For' and 'Against'. Your lives being worth more does not mean their lives should be ended. I read what you've written now, and I cannot believe you would not do so if given the chance. Even without the neighbor or them choice.

quote:
Rakeesh, may you never find yourself in a situation where you have to make such choices. But if you ever do, I assure you that you'll either place a higher value on you and yours than on the enemy who is trying to destroy you, or that enemy will, in fact, destroy you.
Just how many times have you been in that situation, exactly? I know you lived in Israel for awhile, in the early 90s I believe? So since you're bringing up what I would do in that situation, let me ask what you have done. Have you ever served in the IDF? Have you ever had to kill someone? Has the power to send men and women to their deaths, or to kill others, rested in your hands?
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Bean Counter
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She is exactly right, If all lives have the same intrinsic value then the value of life becomes a matter of relative proximity or connection. If a life is in your circle it is worth more then life out of your circle. It is simple and natural. I find it hard to believe that anybody lacks the self knowledge to admit this truth. Nobody grieves and wears black after reading about strangers in the obituaries.

The Palestinians have made it clear that the Jews are outside their circle and are not even human by the standards of the group they belong with.

If enough Arabs die in the coming war then maybe the Palestinians will be able to find a place among the rest of the Arabs who where charged by their religion to welcome them but used them instead as an excuse to indulge in hatred.

BC

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Rakeesh
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quote:
She is exactly right, If all lives have the same intrinsic value then the value of life becomes a matter of relative proximity or connection. If a life is in your circle it is worth more then life out of your circle. It is simple and natural. I find it hard to believe that anybody lacks the self knowledge to admit this truth. Nobody grieves and wears black after reading about strangers in the obituaries.
Something being simple and natural does not make it good and right. Furthermore, whether or not I know someone has zero bearing on how much that person's life is worth.

So don't lecture me on self-knowledge, please. You're singularly ill-suited on that. Zealots always are.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Lisa,

quote:
"Worth more" -- to us. I'm not speaking objectively here (though I do think the lives of people who want to live in peace are worth inestimably more than those who consider the butchery of innocents to be something to celebrate).
I do not truly consider someone who believes "One of mine equals all of theirs" and doesn't mean it as just a guideline, but literally like you do...I do not think you want to live in peace. You want to live in peace through conquest. Which, if successful is merely the absence of war. Not peace.
If you define "peace" as "compromise", you're close to right. I no longer have any desire to seek compromise with people who've shown for the last century that they have no interest in compromise themselves.

We have tried it. We have tried it over and over and over, Rakeesh. We have tried it to the point where it's evidence of psychosis on our part. They are implacable. And there is only one way of dealing with a foe that is implacable.

You can deceive yourself into thinking that the enemy is not implacable. We've done that for a very long time. We've held out hope and we've held out olive branches. We've given and given and given. We brought Arafat back from his Tunisian exile so that we could try and create a peaceful solution. He chose to continue his war against us. We chose to give them a civil authority. They took the guns we gave them for purposes of establishing order and used them to kill us with. We pulled out of Gaza unilaterally, without a single damned thing to show for it, and they've been shelling our towns ever since. After they finished burning down our synagogues and dancing on the remains, that is.

They are implacable, Rakeesh. And it's insane to think otherwise at this point. And it's not just Hamas. Hamas has done Abbas the favor of giving him the label of "moderate", despite the fact that he continues to support suicide attacks and the shelling of Israeli towns.

When we kill people on their side, it's because they are people directly involved in war against us. They are leaders and planners of atrocities. We kill for the purpose of ending the violence. When they kill, they do for the purpose of terrorizing us. They have no dream that the violence they perpetrate will end hostilities. They do it to bring scare us and demoralize us so that we'll give up. It won them Gaza, and they're keenly aware of that.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Rakeesh, may you never find yourself in a situation where you have to make such choices. But if you ever do, I assure you that you'll either place a higher value on you and yours than on the enemy who is trying to destroy you, or that enemy will, in fact, destroy you.
If, right this instant I were given the choice by a genie, "Sacrifice the life of your next door neighbor, or sacrifice the lives of every single fundamentalist Islamic person throughout the world, whether or not they have committed any crimes themselves specifically," I would not take the latter choice. I would be ashamed of my neighbor if he spared me if given the same choice.
The thing is, I don't think that killing every single Muslim in the world will result in anything positive. I don't think that will help us. Nor every Arab, for that matter. I think the death of Mahmoud Abbas and his ilk, on the other hand, would. Given the opportunity, I'd pull the trigger myself. And not just because of his past crimes. People can and do change. It's because he insists that he won't change. And I have no interest in saving him from his own folly and evil.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Let me say this one more time. And let me make it as clear as I possibly can. I have never, ever, ever even suggested that they are less than human. I could not hate them as I do if I considered them less than human. One does not hate a dog for biting. They are all too human, and they can be judged as such. What do you think the Nazis were? Horses?

Such an incredible arithmetic of slaughter-a puffy phrase, yes-is the essence of regarding others as less than human. All of them are worth less than one of mine. Us and them. Human and barbarian. Human and animal. Human and evil human. There's only a hair's breadth difference between all of them.
Blurring distinctions as you're doing is argument by intimidation. "See things they way I do, or you're equating humans to animals". You don't get to say what I equate. Only I do. And I have.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I hear you speak with such intense hatred, and I find it impossible to believe you when you say you think they aren't animals.

I don't care what you find impossible, Rakeesh. I don't live according to your principles; I live according to mine.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I believe you feel they are humans who have chosen to behave like snarling, vicious animals. Even though you still-intellectually-regard them as human, the essence remains the same.

I do believe that they have chosen to behave like snarling, vicious animals. On what basis do you say otherwise? May I remind you what the name of this topic is?

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I'll go one step further. If I lived in WWII and a genie gave me the choice, "Your neighbor's life agaisnt the lives of every single registered Nazi party member, take your pick," I would not spare my neighbor's life. And I'd be ashamed of him for sparing me.

That's unfortunate. It would be an incorrect choice, in my opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I cannot condone murdering people just by association. 'Normal' people may-and do frequently-do that, but that does not make it moral. And it does not make it better.

There's a difference between murdering people and refusing to concern oneself if people get hurt. I've never suggested doing the former except in the case of actual terrorists. Their supporters have forfeited any right to concern on my part, but that doesn't mean I'm going to target them.

Look at the reality. How many Palestinians have died since Israel went in and started pounding Gaza? Zero? Roughly? How much care do you think it takes to invade like this and not cause a single casualty?

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
You need to recognize that there are more than two settings of just 'Off' and 'On', 'For' and 'Against'. Your lives being worth more does not mean their lives should be ended. I read what you've written now, and I cannot believe you would not do so if given the chance. Even without the neighbor or them choice.

There are other settings in most cases. Not in this one. Not any more. Now if they want us to treat them as anything other than a single, monolithic, implacable and deadly enemy, it's their responsibility to show themselves as being so.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Rakeesh, may you never find yourself in a situation where you have to make such choices. But if you ever do, I assure you that you'll either place a higher value on you and yours than on the enemy who is trying to destroy you, or that enemy will, in fact, destroy you.
Just how many times have you been in that situation, exactly? I know you lived in Israel for awhile, in the early 90s I believe?
I lived in Israel for 12 years. I hope to return, and feel extremely guilty about being here. It's a family thing. But I have children who do live there right now. I remember my ex and my daughter taking a bus into Jerusalem. My daughter was two years old, so she wasn't that freaked when the window next to her on the bus disintegrated and fell all over her. It was safety glass, after all. My ex was less calm about the whole thing.

A friend of mine was blown up on the bus in the middle of Jerusalem that I used to take to go home. I went to Tel Aviv one day, and the next day, the same bus, leaving Jerusalem at the same time, was thrown off a cliff by a courageous Palestinian freedom fighter. I've had many close calls, and it hasn't escaped me how close they've been.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
So since you're bringing up what I would do in that situation, let me ask what you have done. Have you ever served in the IDF? Have you ever had to kill someone? Has the power to send men and women to their deaths, or to kill others, rested in your hands?

Yes, I've served. No, I haven't had to kill someone. What's your point? I have to have blood on my hands to make such decisions?
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Lisa
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And let me add that when I was trained, I was trained to deal with "suspicious" individuals (i.e., even individuals wearing kaffiyehs sneaking up on an army base late at night) like this.

Step 1: You call out, "Stop."

Step 2: If the suspicious person doesn't stop, you call out, "Stop, or I will shoot."

Step 3: If the suspicious person doesn't stop even then, you fire a single shot into the air.

Step 4: If the suspicious person continues coming towards you, you may fire a single shot into his leg.

Meanwhile, of course, you're very dead. But at least you're abiding by the bend-over-backwards ultra-morality of the Israeli army.

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Lisa
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Read this and watch the video that's linked there. Consider it a learning experience.
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Samprimary
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quote:
One innocent life on our side is worth more than all the innocent lives on their side combined.
I come here just for the quotes like this.
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Bean Counter
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I loved our ROE while in hot pursuit, fire a flare, fire a warning shot with the personal weapon, fire to disable vehical with the 50 cal or 240 B, and finally shot to kill, of course we had an uparmored humvee with a top speed of 60 in five minutes while they where going 90 in four seconds, but oh well it was just one more handicap to level the playing field.

We created tactics to work around the ROE like putting overwatch in a mile out or so, you cannot outrun the Radio, but it also leaves a truck out in the open. One more way the ROE can lead to casualties.

BC

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Morbo
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Come for the extremist quotes, stay for the _____.
Rats, that's all I've got. Take it away, Tante!

Comradery! Stay for the comradery!

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What I'm saying is moral because we aren't terrorists. We are normal people....
I'm highly dissatisfied with the foundations of this ethical framework.
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Magson
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Hamas Rocket Attack Hits School

It appears the rocket was launched "that way, let's see where it lands" and not specifically targeting anything, but even so, they're making good on their threat it seems.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
The thing is, I don't think that killing every single Muslim in the world will result in anything positive. I don't think that will help us. Nor every Arab, for that matter. I think the death of Mahmoud Abbas and his ilk, on the other hand, would. Given the opportunity, I'd pull the trigger myself. And not just because of his past crimes. People can and do change. It's because he insists that he won't change. And I have no interest in saving him from his own folly and evil.
I find that an odd thing to say, given that he's the only visible, vocal member of the leadership over there actually trying to push for change, and most specifically for the recognition of Israel, and considering he's at odds with and not a member of Hamas. He's the one pushing for a referendum on the recognition of Israel. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not, but even if he doesn't mean what he's saying, he's still DOING it. He's still scheduling a vote, he's still trying to move forward. Should the vote go forward and actually pass, what would you say about him then? He may very well end up on the pro-Israeli side of a civil war.

Or it might not go that way, and he'll be ousted from power, or stay put, who knows? But there are much worse men over there actively trying to do Israel harm, and shouting about it from the rooftops, to make it odd to pick really the one man who is at least putting up the front of advocating peace.


And, Lisa, as for never having called them animals or sub-human before...:

quote:
"Fair"? You're actually concerned about what would be a "fair term" to use for animals who deliberately murder innocents?
From this thread. But whatever, maybe the surrounding circumstances excuse it, or change it?

quote:
Step 1: You call out, "Stop."

Step 2: If the suspicious person doesn't stop, you call out, "Stop, or I will shoot."

Step 3: If the suspicious person doesn't stop even then, you fire a single shot into the air.

Step 4: If the suspicious person continues coming towards you, you may fire a single shot into his leg.

One question on that. What language are you shouting that out in? I would imagine, that if you are used to dealing with Arabs, you're going to shout that in Arabic if you actually want a response. If not, then I wonder what the point is in shouting anything at all.

If however you ARE saying it in a language the probable perpetrators can actually understand...then I'm a bit floored by that. Isn't that the perfect situation for a non-lethal weapon like a taser or something? Tasers are rather short range I know, but there are longer range weapons that can put down an enemy with reasonable force.

But, if you're at a military base with heightened security, and a possible combatant is coming towards the base...I can't believe that your orders are to shoot to maim, in that situation I'd have to imagine it'd always be shoot to kill.

It was on the news today that a newly improved Qassam rocket hit deeper into Israeli territory than any before, and struck an empty school after the kids got out for the day. I'd take it as a warning. But God I hope it doesn't get that far.

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Rakeesh
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Lisa,

quote:
If you define "peace" as "compromise", you're close to right. I no longer have any desire to seek compromise with people who've shown for the last century that they have no interest in compromise themselves.

We have tried it. We have tried it over and over and over, Rakeesh. We have tried it to the point where it's evidence of psychosis on our part. They are implacable. And there is only one way of dealing with a foe that is implacable.

You fail to factor in the difficulty in determining just how many of them are implacable foes, and how many are scared crapless of those who are who will happily murder them and their families for speaking in opposition to their statements. They do exist-not every Palestinian is an implacable foe of Israel, surely you do not believe that?

quote:
You can deceive yourself into thinking that the enemy is not implacable. We've done that for a very long time. We've held out hope and we've held out olive branches.
This is why I am far much more pro-Israeli than I am pro-Palestinian. It does not to me equal carte blance which it does, apparently, to you.

quote:
When we kill people on their side, it's because they are people directly involved in war against us. They are leaders and planners of atrocities. We kill for the purpose of ending the violence. When they kill, they do for the purpose of terrorizing us. They have no dream that the violence they perpetrate will end hostilities. They do it to bring scare us and demoralize us so that we'll give up. It won them Gaza, and they're keenly aware of that.

I agree with all of this as well, except that Israel does routinely kill civilians as collateral damage. However I think that is extremely different from targeting them specifically, and given the tactics of those who claim to fight for Palestinians-while knowingly exposing them to Israeli counterattacks for media and political gain-I don't see what else Israel can do in response.

I also think giving up Gaza was a serious mistake.

quote:
Blurring distinctions as you're doing is argument by intimidation. "See things they way I do, or you're equating humans to animals". You don't get to say what I equate. Only I do. And I have.
I'm hardly trying to intimidate you. I am merely pointing out that your reasoning and its results are only very, very slightly distinct from openly treating your enemies as animals. People don't just go from "I don't like them" to "they're animals". There are steps along that path, I think you and I can at least agree on that, right?

quote:
I don't care what you find impossible, Rakeesh. I don't live according to your principles; I live according to mine.
Yes, well this is a discussion board, isn't it? I'm just pointing out that your words and your stated meaning do not, in my opinion, match up on this issue. I wasn't really expecting you to cry yourself to sleep over it. You seem-and yes, this is my opinion-to take a measure of pride in pointing out that you don't care what the principles of others are.

quote:
I do believe that they have chosen to behave like snarling, vicious animals. On what basis do you say otherwise? May I remind you what the name of this topic is?
I don't say otherwise.

quote:
That's unfortunate. It would be an incorrect choice, in my opinion.
Why? I do not believe that every single member of the Nazi party knew exactly what was going on, or even knew generally what was going on. I do think that a majority of them either knew what was going on, or if they knew would either not care or be happy about it. I'm not speaking only of the Holocaust either, I'm talking about aggressive warfare with manufactured reasoning, about living in a police state, and so forth as well.

Even though I think there was such a majority, that still leaves potentially thousands of members who were just...suckers. Well-meaning people who believed what was told them because they were desperate and the speaker had a captivating personality, and could make the trains run on time.

That is why I do not think it would be a mistake.

quote:
There's a difference between murdering people and refusing to concern oneself if people get hurt. I've never suggested doing the former except in the case of actual terrorists. Their supporters have forfeited any right to concern on my part, but that doesn't mean I'm going to target them.

Look at the reality. How many Palestinians have died since Israel went in and started pounding Gaza? Zero? Roughly? How much care do you think it takes to invade like this and not cause a single casualty?

Of course there's a difference. However, it was you who said at first that all of their innocent lives were not worth a single one of yours (yes, I know, to you). So sometimes, such as now, it's difficult to see where that difference is in your mind.

I applaud Israel's care and mercy in their military actions in Gaza. I am very aware of the incredible level of care and restraint it must take, both for such orders to be given and even more for them to be obeyed by soldiers who have a comrade in captivity.

Again, this is why I am much more pro-Israeli than pro-Palestinian.

quote:
There are other settings in most cases. Not in this one. Not any more. Now if they want us to treat them as anything other than a single, monolithic, implacable and deadly enemy, it's their responsibility to show themselves as being so.
Such changes do not happen overnight. They do take some amount of time, at the very least. You do your much to destroy any such opportunity to demonstrate change that they might have by treating them as a single, monolithic, implacable and deadly enemy...and I get the impression you know that, and simply don't care. Because, after all, they've demonstrated themselves a single, etc. etc. enemy already.

You don't appear to care very much that in your system of dealing with enemies, once someone gets into that category it is incredibly difficult for them ever to get out of it.

quote:
Yes, I've served. No, I haven't had to kill someone. What's your point? I have to have blood on my hands to make such decisions?
I didn't have much of a point, really, except in trying to decide if you were a chickenhawk or not. I will listen to your extreme (in my opinion) opinions if you have actually lived in the experiences you speak of, and try to understand you better. I generally don't listen to chickenhawks much at all when their arguments are based on experiences they haven't had.

I'm relieved your daughter came through the attack unscathed. I am very sorry for your friend's death.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
What I'm saying is moral because we aren't terrorists. We are normal people....
I'm highly dissatisfied with the foundations of this ethical framework.
Really? Why is that? You don't see a difference between normal people, just trying to go about their daily lives, and people who commit or support the commission of atrocities?
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Magson:
Hamas Rocket Attack Hits School

It appears the rocket was launched "that way, let's see where it lands" and not specifically targeting anything, but even so, they're making good on their threat it seems.

That's not entirely true. It was specifically targetted into the middle of a city of 120,000 people. It may not have been aimed at the school, but when you shoot a rocket into the middle of a city, you're trying to kill people.
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Lyrhawn
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Is there an article on how good the guidance system is on the new upgraded Qassams?

If they didn't plan it, which I doubt they did, given the homegrown nature of the weapon, it's quite a coincidence.

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Tresopax
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quote:
I wonder who the first will be to point out that since Israel is targeting Palestinian power and water supplies, they are to blame for Hamas targeting Israeli children facilities.
Well, Israel definitely deserves some of the blame for this. Of course, the Palestinian militants are to blame too, given that they are the ones directly doing it. But for Israel to think they can pursue such agressive policies towards the Palestinians while attempting to build a state in which Palestinians civilians are second class citizens, the Israelis would be naive to think they don't share the blame for this situation and the attacks that result.

Then again, the road goes both ways. Hopefully the Palestinians recognize that recent Israeli attacks have not come out of thin air. When you vote terrorists into your government, you are definitely in a large part to blame if that government provokes hostile reactions to your nation.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I find that an odd thing to say, given that he's the only visible, vocal member of the leadership over there actually trying to push for change, and most specifically for the recognition of Israel, and considering he's at odds with and not a member of Hamas.

Recognizing Israel while supporting terrorism is "moderate"? That's exactly what I'm talking about, Lyrhawn. Hamas is so rabid that even an active advocate of murdering innocent civilians is considered a "moderate" by comparison.

Sorry, but that's not a reasonable criterion. He's pushing for a shift in PR tactics, is all. He recently came out in support of the "prisoner's letter", supporting terrorist attacks against civilians. The fact that Hamas is even nuttier doesn't make him civilized.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
He's the one pushing for a referendum on the recognition of Israel. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not, but even if he doesn't mean what he's saying, he's still DOING it. He's still scheduling a vote, he's still trying to move forward. Should the vote go forward and actually pass, what would you say about him then? He may very well end up on the pro-Israeli side of a civil war.

"Pro-Israel"? You're hilarious. You need to read more of what the guy actually says and less of what American pundits spoon feed you.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Or it might not go that way, and he'll be ousted from power, or stay put, who knows? But there are much worse men over there actively trying to do Israel harm, and shouting about it from the rooftops, to make it odd to pick really the one man who is at least putting up the front of advocating peace.

"Putting up the front" indeed. Abbas supports and continues to support terrorist attacks. "Martyrdom", as they call it.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
And, Lisa, as for never having called them animals or sub-human before...:

quote:
"Fair"? You're actually concerned about what would be a "fair term" to use for animals who deliberately murder innocents?
From this thread. But whatever, maybe the surrounding circumstances excuse it, or change it?
I suggest that people read all of that thread so that they can see it in context.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
One question on that. What language are you shouting that out in? I would imagine, that if you are used to dealing with Arabs, you're going to shout that in Arabic if you actually want a response. If not, then I wonder what the point is in shouting anything at all.

Arabs in Israel speak Hebrew as well as Arabic. If they don't understand it in Hebrew, it's reasonable to suspect that they're up to no good. Furthermore, if someone is calling out warnings to me in Basque and they shoot a warning shot in the air, I'm going to figure it out.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
If however you ARE saying it in a language the probable perpetrators can actually understand...then I'm a bit floored by that. Isn't that the perfect situation for a non-lethal weapon like a taser or something? Tasers are rather short range I know, but there are longer range weapons that can put down an enemy with reasonable force.

Unbelievable. Even that kind of sluggish response is too lethal for you. Do you expect soldiers to have to carry two sets of weapons with them? Or have to switch clips in the middle of a situation? Or maybe you'd prefer that Israeli soldiers carry non-lethal weapons exclusively?

Your bias is showing, Lyrhawn.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
But, if you're at a military base with heightened security, and a possible combatant is coming towards the base...I can't believe that your orders are to shoot to maim, in that situation I'd have to imagine it'd always be shoot to kill.

Imagination is a wonderful thing. I was given those instructions once on an army base, and once a few years earlier before doing guard duty in a small town in Gush Etzion.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
It was on the news today that a newly improved Qassam rocket hit deeper into Israeli territory than any before, and struck an empty school after the kids got out for the day. I'd take it as a warning. But God I hope it doesn't get that far.

A "warning"?! You have no shame.
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Tresopax
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quote:
And there is only one way of dealing with a foe that is implacable.
I suspect this is how Hamas justifies what they are doing to the innocent Israeli civilians.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
You fail to factor in the difficulty in determining just how many of them are implacable foes, and how many are scared crapless of those who are who will happily murder them and their families for speaking in opposition to their statements. They do exist-not every Palestinian is an implacable foe of Israel, surely you do not believe that?

It's not that I "fail to factor in the difficulty", Rakeesh. It's that I absolutely reject the idea that I have any responsibility whatsoever to make such a distinction. They, as a group, as a nation, are trying to destroy us. It is no more my responsibility to worry about whether there are some who aren't totally gung-ho about it than it was the responsibility of the US to worry about innocents who lived in Berlin during the taking of that city in WWII.

They aren't trapped there, Rakeesh. They come and go all the time. They know what they are doing. They have been raised on a diet of pure hatred. They believe that Jews poison wells, spread AIDS, and are basically the personifications of evil. And those few who may be more enlightened than that have mostly left for the west by now.

The idea that we should take any risk at all upon ourselves for the sake of singling out a possible handful of people among them who aren't entirely content with the barbarism of their fellows... that's just so beyond unrealistic.

Again, this is ivory tower syndrome. It's very easy to imagine the world to be a better place than it is.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Blurring distinctions as you're doing is argument by intimidation. "See things they way I do, or you're equating humans to animals". You don't get to say what I equate. Only I do. And I have.
I'm hardly trying to intimidate you. I am merely pointing out that your reasoning and its results are only very, very slightly distinct from openly treating your enemies as animals. People don't just go from "I don't like them" to "they're animals". There are steps along that path, I think you and I can at least agree on that, right?
I do. We agree on quite a bit, I think. But we don't agree on your assumption that I would ever be willing to free them from responsibility for their actions by considering them less than human.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Even though I think there was such a majority, that still leaves potentially thousands of members who were just...suckers. Well-meaning people who believed what was told them because they were desperate and the speaker had a captivating personality, and could make the trains run on time.

That is why I do not think it would be a mistake.

If a gang attacks you in a city and are trying to kill you, worrying about which of them were pressured into joining the gang will get you very dead. The distinction you're talking about may be valid during the war crimes trials that come after it's over, but it's not valid during the war.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Look at the reality. How many Palestinians have died since Israel went in and started pounding Gaza? Zero? Roughly? How much care do you think it takes to invade like this and not cause a single casualty?

Of course there's a difference. However, it was you who said at first that all of their innocent lives were not worth a single one of yours (yes, I know, to you). So sometimes, such as now, it's difficult to see where that difference is in your mind.[/QUOTE]

I'm being as clear as I can. No one can say I speak in hints. I'm about as blatant and as verbose as they come.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Such changes do not happen overnight. They do take some amount of time, at the very least. You do your much to destroy any such opportunity to demonstrate change that they might have by treating them as a single, monolithic, implacable and deadly enemy...and I get the impression you know that, and simply don't care. Because, after all, they've demonstrated themselves a single, etc. etc. enemy already.

You're right. I think they've forfeited the right to any such consideration. Once the conflict is over, then it'll be time to make such inquiries. Not now.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
You don't appear to care very much that in your system of dealing with enemies, once someone gets into that category it is incredibly difficult for them ever to get out of it.

It took them decades to get into that category, Rakeesh. Be reasonable.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Yes, I've served. No, I haven't had to kill someone. What's your point? I have to have blood on my hands to make such decisions?
I didn't have much of a point, really, except in trying to decide if you were a chickenhawk or not.
Excuse me? "I don't think that word means what you think it means".

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I will listen to your extreme (in my opinion) opinions if you have actually lived in the experiences you speak of, and try to understand you better. I generally don't listen to chickenhawks much at all when their arguments are based on experiences they haven't had.

I'm relieved your daughter came through the attack unscathed. I am very sorry for your friend's death.

I appreciate that.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:
And there is only one way of dealing with a foe that is implacable.
I suspect this is how Hamas justifies what they are doing to the innocent Israeli civilians.
We do what we do to prevent murders. They do what they do because they want us gone. If you can't understand the difference, you're beyond reason.
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Lyrhawn
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Jeez, and I was trying to be somewhat civil so as not to provoke yet another tirade from her...so much for the effort.

quote:
"Pro-Israel"? You're hilarious. You need to read more of what the guy actually says and less of what American pundits spoon feed you.
Do you deny that he is really the only one over there calling for the recognition of Israel? He even has Hamas tacitly approving language that would agree to the recognition of Israel. I'd call that progress. I only get half my news from American sources, so at least say it correctly, it's what the Americans and British spoonfeed me. [Smile]

quote:
Unbelievable. Even that kind of sluggish response is too lethal for you. Do you expect soldiers to have to carry two sets of weapons with them? Or have to switch clips in the middle of a situation? Or maybe you'd prefer that Israeli soldiers carry non-lethal weapons exclusively?

Your bias is showing, Lyrhawn.

Which one? My bias against possibly unnecessarily killing people? I'll have to kick that. You're one to talk about bias anyway from what you've said in this thread, not to mention others.

Regardless, having one guy carry a nonlethal weapon with him on patrol isn't a hardship. Grunts in the field carry all sorts of weapons, unless you're trying to tell me that the highly trained IDF can't teach a single guy per squad to carry an extra 10lb plastic non-lethal weapon.

Out on patrol, in a combat zone, no, I wouldn't expect them to carry two sets of weapons, and in a combat zone I wouldn't expect them to shoot to maim either. Then again, you consider all of Israel, or at least all of Gaza and the West Bank and other Palestinian centric areas to be entirely combat zones, so I don't know what point is in making a distinction.


quote:
A "warning"?! You have no shame.
Do you not understand the context of the situation?

1. Militants announce their intention to go after schools and hospitals, which they had previously left untouched.

2. Militants announce they have new longer range variant of the Qassam rocket.

3. Militants use new longer range rocket to strike at an empty school causing no fatalities.

I'd say that's the very definition of a warning. Had they wanted, they would have attacked when school was still in session.

Given the situation, it appears neither side is really willing to back down. The Army of Islam doesn't appear willing to give up the captured soldier, but at least they won't kill him, which is a godsend for all around. I'm wondering if that's only because they expect to get something for it, and what they will do when it becomes clear that Israel has no intention of giving it if it can't be shot out the turret of their tanks.

My question is, regardless of the soldier that has been captured, wouldn't it be in Israel's best interest to release the imprisoned women and children in return for Hamas recognizing Israel? It'd be both a major step and an act of good will. It makes land negotiations the next logical step, well, either that or civil war. But it's impossible for Israel to make such a deal while the soldier is still being held prisoner, it makes it look like quid pro quo.

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Rakeesh
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Ummm...wow, I had no idea about the sexual predator connotations of that word. I've heard it only in terms of Looney Tunes, real birds, and about people who are generally aggressive without ever having put themselves in harm's way.

Edit: Actually the moree I think about it, the more bells that word is ringing for me on Hatrack. I think now that maybe I have heard of the word in that context...once, here on Hatrack, heh.

[ July 05, 2006, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Really? Why is that? You don't see a difference between normal people, just trying to go about their daily lives, and people who commit or support the commission of atrocities?
I do.
But you have already defined "atrocity" on this thread as something bad that, by definition, can only happen to "normal people."

If you're then defining "normal people" as "people who do not commit atrocities," we've come full circle.

It's a chicken/egg argument at that stage, innit? Albeit complicated by the fact that both sides go through life clucking, scratching at the dirt, and hiding inside their shells.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
"Pro-Israel"? You're hilarious. You need to read more of what the guy actually says and less of what American pundits spoon feed you.
Do you deny that he is really the only one over there calling for the recognition of Israel? He even has Hamas tacitly approving language that would agree to the recognition of Israel. I'd call that progress. I only get half my news from American sources, so at least say it correctly, it's what the Americans and British spoonfeed me. [Smile]
A polite murderer is still a murderer. No, I don't see it as progress at all. And I don't get how such verbalizations, calculated only to impress the West and get money, make his continued drive to destroy Israel any more palatable. It's not as though Germany and Japan didn't recognize the US in WWII.

Just because the Arabs have invented an additional insult of refusing to even recognize a country that has existed for almost 60 years doesn't mean that an Arab who doesn't engage in that particular piece of propaganda is "moderate". Sheesh. How low has the bar dropped here?

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Regardless, having one guy carry a nonlethal weapon with him on patrol isn't a hardship. Grunts in the field carry all sorts of weapons, unless you're trying to tell me that the highly trained IDF can't teach a single guy per squad to carry an extra 10lb plastic non-lethal weapon.

Squad? How many people do you think stand around doing guard duty? Have you been watching the Dirty Dozen again, or something? This is reality.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Out on patrol, in a combat zone, no, I wouldn't expect them to carry two sets of weapons, and in a combat zone I wouldn't expect them to shoot to maim either. Then again, you consider all of Israel, or at least all of Gaza and the West Bank and other Palestinian centric areas to be entirely combat zones, so I don't know what point is in making a distinction.

So do the evil men (better than "animals", since you're going to take that literally?) who shoot rockets into the middle of cities like Ashkelon.

Though I don't get why Ashkelon is suddenly a huge surprise. They've been shelling Sderot steadily for months. I can only imagine what Americans would do if a single rocket was shot into a single American city.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
A "warning"?! You have no shame.
Do you not understand the context of the situation?

1. Militants announce their intention to go after schools and hospitals, which they had previously left untouched.

2. Militants announce they have new longer range variant of the Qassam rocket.

3. Militants use new longer range rocket to strike at an empty school causing no fatalities.

I'd say that's the very definition of a warning. Had they wanted, they would have attacked when school was still in session.

For God's sake, Lyrhawn. They didn't aim for a school. They aimed for a city. At 7pm. It was actually our good fortune that it hit near a school, rather than the city center.

Start thinking things through. Really.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
My question is, regardless of the soldier that has been captured, wouldn't it be in Israel's best interest to release the imprisoned women and children in return for Hamas recognizing Israel?

Of course not. Negotiating with these people tells them that they can do what they do with impunity. Look what happened to them when they kidnapped Gilad Shalit. Even barbarians can get a clue.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
It'd be both a major step and an act of good will. It makes land negotiations the next logical step, well, either that or civil war. But it's impossible for Israel to make such a deal while the soldier is still being held prisoner, it makes it look like quid pro quo.

And why should we engage in "land negotiations" with them?
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Really? Why is that? You don't see a difference between normal people, just trying to go about their daily lives, and people who commit or support the commission of atrocities?
I do.
But you have already defined "atrocity" on this thread as something bad that, by definition, can only happen to "normal people."

If you're then defining "normal people" as "people who do not commit atrocities," we've come full circle.

It's a chicken/egg argument at that stage, innit? Albeit complicated by the fact that both sides go through life clucking, scratching at the dirt, and hiding inside their shells.

You play word games, Tom. I'm not interested.
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TomDavidson
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No, it's not a word game. It's not semantics.

You draw the distinction that you do specifically so you can authorize and justify the commission of horrible acts against these people -- and do not recognize these horrible acts as "atrocities," by your own admission, only because the victims of these acts are not "normal people." They have, in fact, made themselves undeserving of the respect and protections inherently enjoyed by "normal people" by committing atrocities against "normal people."

Whom you've defined as "people who do not commit or support atrocity."

What I'm hoping that breaking this linguistic nightmare down will do for you is help you to understand that, no matter how you approach it, this IS a chicken/egg argument. Because if THEY committed atrocities first, they're the terrorists and you're the normal people and you can do whatever you want to them. But if YOU committed atrocities first, THEY'RE the normal people and can do whatever they want to you, by exactly the same logic.

Since both groups disagree over who did what to whom first, and what counts as an atrocity, both groups feel supremely justified in their own righteousness, even as they recognize that they're doing horrible things to each other.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
No, it's not a word game. It's not semantics.

You're right. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Whatever could I have been thinking?

You aren't playing word games. You simply think things that are untrue.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
You draw the distinction that you do specifically so you can authorize and justify the commission of horrible acts against these people -- and do not recognize these horrible acts as "atrocities," by your own admission, only because the victims of these acts are not "normal people."

You're a laugh a minute, Tom. We've done nothing wrong to these people. Again, what's the death count in Gaza so far? Oh, right. None. What country is it that lets the Arabs in Gaza send their medical cases to their hospitals? Oh, yeah, that's Israel. And which country is it that used that charitable policy to sneak a woman into Israel for the purpose of blowing up civilians?

Normal people don't do such things. And the restraint that Israel has evinced in the face of such atrocities is virtually superhuman. To the point, as I've said before, of near-psychosis.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
They have, in fact, made themselves undeserving of the respect and protections inherently enjoyed by "normal people" by committing atrocities against "normal people."

Whom you've defined as "people who do not commit or support atrocity."

Tom, you make yourself ridiculous when you say things like this. They are part of a nation that is committing war and atrocities against us. They are not deserving that we should risk a single life on our side to protect them from the results of their own folly and evil. Sheesh. That doesn't mean that we commit such acts against them in return. We're better people. We have a sense of morality. We have a sense of limitations. But to the extent that we limit ourselves, it's for ourselves. Not for them. They are deserving of no concern whatsoever from us.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What I'm hoping that breaking this linguistic nightmare down will do for you is help you to understand that, no matter how you approach it, this IS a chicken/egg argument. Because if THEY committed atrocities first,

See, this is where you're completely off the wall. Because it isn't a matter of first, last, or middle. We don't commit atrocities against them. They do, all the time, against us. It is their policy. And they do so, not to discourage us from attacking them, but in order to demoralize us and make us surrender to them what they want. They're like extremely dangerous children throwing extremely lethal tantrums. "I want what I want, and I'm going to kill and kill and kill and kill until you give it to me!"

While we would do absolutely nothing to do them if they weren't trying to kill us all the time.

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TheGrimace
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SL, I don't think you are actually arguing against the points others are making for a lot of this discussion, instead you are arguing tangentially which doesn't serve much of a purpose:

you clearly stated at the beginning of this:
"One innocent life on our side is worth more than all the innocent lives on their side combined."

Now instead you seem to be trying to backpedal or sidepedal to effectively say instead that there are no innocents living in Palestine... This is a completely different argument.

You also keep making statements as if we are saying it's worse to kill/attack a known terrorist than to allow a civilian to dies, which is blatantly false. There is a fairly clear distinction that has been mentioned between harming combatants and harming civilians. Previously combatants was defined as uniformed military personell, but that has largely evolved to include terrorists and their ilk.

No one here is arguing (as far as I can tell) that terrorists aren't fair game in this conflict, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against on this point.

Now back to my other point, if you want this to shift to a discussion about how there are no longer any innocents in Palestine then so be it, and you may even have a point, but state so clearly, because your initial comment which started this whole thing is still at odds with the general morality of the world.

Certainly I am going to react more strongly when someone I am close to is killed unjustly, however, it does not make it any less heinous an act if someone I don't know is killed... We are trying to speak of a more or less objective morality here and you seem to be saying that your subjective morality should take greater precedence...

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
SL,

Actually, my name is Lisa.

quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
I don't think you are actually arguing against the points others are making for a lot of this discussion, instead you are arguing tangentially which doesn't serve much of a purpose:

you clearly stated at the beginning of this:
"One innocent life on our side is worth more than all the innocent lives on their side combined."

Now instead you seem to be trying to backpedal or sidepedal to effectively say instead that there are no innocents living in Palestine... This is a completely different argument.

I'm neither backpedaling nor sidepedaling (if that's even a word). And what does Jordan (Palestine) have to do with this?

quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
You also keep making statements as if we are saying it's worse to kill/attack a known terrorist than to allow a civilian to dies, which is blatantly false. There is a fairly clear distinction that has been mentioned between harming combatants and harming civilians.

Pelagius claimed that both sides target civilians. When called on it, he produced websites about Israel destroying the homes of terrorist murderers. Israel does not target civilians. But the Arabs do use their own civilians as human shields, and sometimes they die because of it. We go over and above to prevent civilian casualities on their side, while they deliberately target civilians on ours. We act against them in order to stop the incessant attacks, while they act against us because they want us out of our land.

quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
Previously combatants was defined as uniformed military personell, but that has largely evolved to include terrorists and their ilk.

So? Civilized people use uniforms to make that distinction. They reject the distinction. They send women and children to be human bombs. That you don't see this for the sickness it is says much about you.

quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
No one here is arguing (as far as I can tell) that terrorists aren't fair game in this conflict, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against on this point.

And their entire support system. A culture that names schools and streets for these terrorists, which sees the terrorists as heros and teaches its children to aspire to martyrdom in that way... it's a diseased culture. An evil culture.

quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
Now back to my other point, if you want this to shift to a discussion about how there are no longer any innocents in Palestine then so be it, and you may even have a point, but state so clearly, because your initial comment which started this whole thing is still at odds with the general morality of the world.

The what? The "general morality of the world"? Yeah, whatever.

quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
Certainly I am going to react more strongly when someone I am close to is killed unjustly, however, it does not make it any less heinous an act if someone I don't know is killed... We are trying to speak of a more or less objective morality here and you seem to be saying that your subjective morality should take greater precedence...

It's not heinous when people in a nation committing war against us get killed. At worst, it's a case of "Oh, bummer."

A guy walks into a doctor's office. He tells the doctor, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor says, "So, dummy, don't do that!"

If they don't want to get killed, they should stop attacking us.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It's not heinous when people in a nation committing war against us get killed.
How do you feel about Dresden?
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rivka
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A bit overpriced, but the shepherdess my mom has is quite pretty.
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Lisa
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I like Lladro, actually.
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