posted
That article managed to lower my opinion of absolutely everyone involved. My sympathy would be with those whose classlessness was at least evidenced second-hand, so there's some room for doubt.
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posted
I'd like to read a real news story on the trial and events leading up to it. The one linked from the blog entry had so much spin I could use it to dry my salad tonight.
quote:The jury believed the Atheists. Unanimously.
This line demonstrates either a total lack of what a not-guilty verdict means or a deliberate falsification, unless they polled the jury afterwards and simply failed to mention that fact in the article.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I'd like to read a real news story on the trial and events leading up to it. The one linked from the blog entry had so much spin I could use it to dry my salad tonight.
quote:The jury believed the Atheists. Unanimously.
This line demonstrates either a total lack of what a not-guilty verdict means or a deliberate falsification, unless they polled the jury afterwards and simply failed to mention that fact in the article.
I can't find a single article out there that doesn't reference this one as its source.
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posted
Christians are all ignorant and intentionally so, therefore they are evil. Atheists always have moral supremecy and can do no wrong.
Yes stories where the religious commit evil and the godless are the champions or right are just so much fun to read everyone feels so much more enlightened after having read them.
Maybe I was just in the wrong mood, but I tire of these types of stories. Yes there are idiots in every organized religion, but I doubt you would be hard pressed to find atheists who are just as moronic.
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posted
Here is a long post at democraticunderground.com by Chester Smalkowski, the father. He rambles on, some.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Oh, BlackBlade, I'm quite sure of it. I'm not KoM, you know.
True story Lisa, I probably just need to avoid posting in forums on mon/wed, (I have classes AND work on those days.) Oh I just realized I need to lower my mountain of homework by a few inches. Sometimes I wish Chinese would just cater to my needs.
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quote:Maybe I was just in the wrong mood, but I tire of these types of stories. Yes there are idiots in every organized religion, but I doubt you would be hard pressed to find atheists who are just as moronic.
And you Christians are all so good and humble, no doubt, that you never rejoice to see the wicked brought down just a notch. Especially when they've been persecuting somebody for their beliefs.
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quote:And you Christians are all so good and humble, no doubt, that you never rejoice to see the wicked brought down just a notch. Especially when they've been persecuting somebody for their beliefs.
Depends on what you mean. I personally don't wish evil on evil people, but I do hope they are stopped and usually sooner is better than later. Saying I'm happier about the death of someone like a terrorist than the death of someone who has lived a good life is about the only true intersection between what you posted and what I believe, but I don't think that's what you had in mind. Afterall, I could be happier about the death of a terrorist simply because that brings their bloody deeds to an end -- I might still mourn their passing as a shame in that they might've learned another way if they had the time & chance.
But then, you aren't talking death, you say "brought down just a notch..."
Okay, so I did get a bit of a thrill when Ken Lay was indicted and tried. I like it when Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell screw up publicly. When Rush gets caught abusing drugs, I chuckle a bit...
Oh wait, you mean people who DON'T abuse religion, but persecute somebody for their beliefs.
I kind of like it when School Boards learn that they can't get away with cramming religion down people's throats too.
Oh wait, you didn't mean that either.
Sorry, I guess you must've been aiming your invective at OTHER religious people. You know, those unidimensional cardboard ones you run into so often. The ones that have been the bane of your existence...right KoM?
Yeah...THOSE people really are deserving of your sarcasm. I'll let them know to come here and read it. If I can find them.
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posted
I was going to say what Bob said, and I also wanted to add : KOM, even if every christian on the planet behaved the way you describe it wouldn't make it acceptable. If you want to lower yourself, fine, but don't take other's behavior as an excuse.
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posted
Expelled for refusing to pray? I'm not buying it.
And the school administrators won't talk about what she was really expelled for, because of the lawsuit. But there were unsubstantiated accusations that she threatened to kill another girl, combined with the actual fact of the father fighting with the principal. I'd believe that she might have been teased or picked on or shunned for not praying - but expelled? She did something else.
On a side note, I can't believe there were that many jurors who didn't know what an atheist was!
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quote:Maybe I was just in the wrong mood, but I tire of these types of stories. Yes there are idiots in every organized religion, but I doubt you would be hard pressed to find atheists who are just as moronic.
And you Christians are all so good and humble, no doubt, that you never rejoice to see the wicked brought down just a notch. Especially when they've been persecuting somebody for their beliefs.
I cannot even remember the last time I was able to without any doubt identify say that right prevailed and evil was vanquished while reading the news. Maybe WW2, but I wasnt alive then, probably the Berlin Wall falling down.
I don't pretend to be perfect, but I do resent being told that because I am religious that therefore my moral frame work is less stable then if I was not, and that religion reflects negatively on my ability to think inteligently.
I have agnostic/atheist friends that I think the world of, and I have very religious family members that I think are idiots sometimes. But I dont use those facts as a basis to believe that all atheists/agnostics are awesome and all religious folks are idiots.
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quote:I don't pretend to be perfect, but I do resent being told that because I am religious that therefore my moral frame work is less stable then if I was not, and that religion reflects negatively on my ability to think inteligently.
Has anyone here (beside KOM, who...well, you know) actually said that this is necessarily the case for you specifically?
There's a big difference between talking about trends in populations and saying that everyone within a population has the same characteristics.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Morbo: Here is a long post at democraticunderground.com by Chester Smalkowski, the father. He rambles on, some.
His post makes him sound like a paranoid delusional wingbat (I think that's the correct psychological term). This isn't in reference to his atheism; it's in reference to his posting style.
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quote:I don't pretend to be perfect, but I do resent being told that because I am religious that therefore my moral frame work is less stable then if I was not, and that religion reflects negatively on my ability to think inteligently.
Has anyone here (beside KOM, who...well, you know) actually said that this is necessarily the case for you specifically?
There's a big difference between talking about trends in populations and saying that everyone within a population has the same characteristics.
I was not accusing the whole community of so doing, just pointing out that its been done to me in the past and it sometimes seems that KOM makes that statement.
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posted
Well, I apologise, but I actually do feel that adults who believe in Santa Claus are a little less mentally stable than the rest of the population. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. And for the general population, there are indeed some studies showing that religious people are less likely to be intelligent; Wiki has a nice overview.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well, I apologise, but I actually do feel that adults who believe in Santa Claus are a little less mentally stable than the rest of the population. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. And for the general population, there are indeed some studies showing that religious people are less likely to be intelligent; Wiki has a nice overview.
Ever read Scott Adams' Religion War? He touches on that intelligence thing pretty heavily.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: [QB] Well, I apologise, but I actually do feel that adults who believe in Santa Claus are a little less mentally stable than the rest of the population. Sorry, but that's the way I feel.
Ill bear that in mind when I read your posts. Its easier for me to deal with people who actually believe it, rather then people who keep saying it and claim they are not.
I must admit that I grinned alittle when I read the wiki article and it addressed a study where LDS scientists and people directly countered the results found in other religious/IQ studies Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I cannot even remember the last time I was able to without any doubt identify say that right prevailed and evil was vanquished while reading the news. Maybe WW2, but I wasnt alive then, probably the Berlin Wall falling down.
Let us assume for a moment that the facts of the case are as presented in the article. In that case, just how is the court decision not a victory of good over evil?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Getting back to the original topic :
quote:I cannot even remember the last time I was able to without any doubt identify say that right prevailed and evil was vanquished while reading the news. Maybe WW2, but I wasnt alive then, probably the Berlin Wall falling down.
Let us assume for a moment that the facts of the case are as presented in the article. In that case, just how is the court decision not a victory of good over evil?
Oh I fully agree that the school had no right to treat the family as they did; assuming the article speaks only the facts.
If this situation is accurately presented, the atheists were certainly in the right, while the religious were most certainly in the wrong.
I just think religion failing and atheism prevailing makes for more interesting reading to most nowadays, and since I do believe religion when utilized properly makes people better, it just rubs me the wrong way sometimes.
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Even with a perfect religion I think most people would fail to utilize it properly. Most car accidents are not the cars fault for example.
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posted
Just how do you expect religion to improve, assuming such a thing were possible, if its flaws are not pointed out? Very few things improve without criticism.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Just how do you expect religion to improve, assuming such a thing were possible, if its flaws are not pointed out? Very few things improve without criticism.
How do people claiming to be Christian, directly going against what their religion dictates, show a flaw with Christianity? Maybe if Christianity controlled its adherants you could complain about the job it was doing.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Just how do you expect religion to improve, assuming such a thing were possible, if its flaws are not pointed out? Very few things improve without criticism.
How do people claiming to be Christian, directly going against what their religion dictates, show a flaw with Christianity? Maybe if Christianity controlled its adherants you could complain about the job it was doing.
Isn't the fact that Christianity CAN'T control their adherants a flaw in itself?
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quote:Originally posted by c.t.t.n.: Oh my dear, Kat--you have trolled egregiously for Mormonism here. Do you deny that?
Given Kat's posting activity of late, I assume that this is an alt of someone who predates the registration of this name. If this is true, is there a particular reason you're hiding your usual identity?
If you're just a long-term lurker, never mind.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
BB, The problem with that is that, from a certain point of view, Christianity is defined by what Christians do. There are a mutlitude of examples of really poor behavior on the part of Christians where these people believed that they were following their religion.
For that matter, there are a multitude of other examples (say, compliance in Milgram Experiment-type situations) where, while the behavior is not explicitly commanded by the people's conception of their religion, it grows out of their beliefs nonetheless.
---
If you want to talk about some Platonic ideal Christianity, then that's one thing. But, in general, when I at least am talking about Christianity, I'm talking about something that is actually practiced in the real world.
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posted
And yet, with an inability to tell what those people would have done had they not been Christian, you're just blowing smoke.
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posted
If I get too much religion in my life, then the inevitable result is that people start getting hurt. Either I start disregarding my own safety needs, or those of others, or both. A perfect example is jihad.
Just like if I drink too much water all at once, which is a life-giving substance, I will die, because it will unbalance the body's chemistry.
Perhaps there is a better test for "too much religion in my life". What would it be?
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: BB, The problem with that is that, from a certain point of view, Christianity is defined by what Christians do. There are a mutlitude of examples of really poor behavior on the part of Christians where these people believed that they were following their religion.
For that matter, there are a multitude of other examples (say, compliance in Milgram Experiment-type situations) where, while the behavior is not explicitly commanded by the people's conception of their religion, it grows out of their beliefs nonetheless.
---
If you want to talk about some Platonic ideal Christianity, then that's one thing. But, in general, when I at least am talking about Christianity, I'm talking about something that is actually practiced in the real world.
Dagonee: True Story
Squicky: How is Christianity (the docterine not the culture) defined by what people actually do? Perhaps you meantioning the possibility that perhaps God creates certain rules to balance out the decisions a certain culture is more apt to make?
Again assuming the car was made absolutely perfectly, accidents would still occur because of what the driver does with the vehicle. Cars have steering wheels so that you can drive efficiently. But you can also use that same capacity for steering to veer into oncoming traffic.
Still when it all goes down, we have to blame the driver since a person who actually drives properly is very much assisted in his daily activities by the posession of a car.
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posted
Err..no I'm not. You see, I can make comparisons across cultures to determine causal relationships between elements of said cultures and the behavior of people in these cultures.
So, for example, I can look at the significantly higher rate of compliance in the Milgram experiment (i.e. virtually shocking someone to death) for certain populations as opposed to others and make inferences based on the thing found in the higher complying populations that are not found in the lower complying ones.
Since Christians are not morally superior (and in many cases are morally inferior) to many other populations, some of which share basically the same environment, they either start out morally lower or either have some elements in their cultural/belief systems or lack elements that others have that reduce the likelihood of certain types of moral behavior or increase the likelihood of immoral behavior.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Since Christians are not morally superior (and in many cases are morally inferior) to many other populations, some of which share basically the same environment, they either start out morally lower or either have some elements in their cultural/belief systems or lack elements that others have that reduce the likelihood of certain types of moral behavior or increase the likelihood of immoral behavior.
This paragraph admits one (and not the only one, despite your making your list exclusive) mechanism by which the results you describe would be found yet not disprove the proposition "a person who converts to Christianity is more likely to morally improve after doing so than he is to morally decay."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Just how do you expect religion to improve, assuming such a thing were possible, if its flaws are not pointed out? Very few things improve without criticism.
How do people claiming to be Christian, directly going against what their religion dictates, show a flaw with Christianity? Maybe if Christianity controlled its adherants you could complain about the job it was doing.
I rephrase. How do you expect Christians, as a group, to improve, if their flaws are never pointed out? Or, if you want to argue that these people are not True Christians (tm), how do you expect that group to increase if the wannabees are never corrected?
Edit : Or to put it back in the terms you originally used, how can you expect people to aply religion correctly if it's never pointed out when they're doing it wrong?
[ July 06, 2006, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: King of Men ]
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: How is Christianity (the docterine not the culture) defined by what people actually do?
The doctrine is defined by what people believe and teach. The highest commandment in Christianity contains "Love your neighbor as yourself." This is however conspicuously absent as a central tenent in much of the history (and many would argue the current state) of mainstream Christianity.
So, you've got two different definitions of what Christianity is. The ideal one, in which people prize love of neighbor and the actual one, where they don't. Which is Christianity?
To me, it depends on what context you're talking in. When I'm trying to describe the way things are and make predictions about how things are likely going to be in the future, I use the second one.
This doesn't mean that the first, ideal definition doesn't exist (although there are tons of different ideas of what the actual ideal form is), just that I don't find it particularly relevant in describing the real world.
It's possible that there is this perfect form of some your belief out there that will make everything better, but I look at the many ways Christians as a group tend to behave poorly, especially in areas where other cultures do not behave anywhere near as poorly, and I think that it's clearly not here yet. So, again, I talk about what is actually here.
---
Edit: What people do is more related to the effects of doctrine, which is a great deal more nebulous. However, when group A tends to do X and group B tends to do Y, we look for how these groups differ and prefer to explain the differences in behavior by the differences in the constitution of these groups.
If, for example, Christians didn't follow their doctrines and adherents of other belief systems did with highly similar environments did, I'd look for an explanation within the version of Christianity under analysis. Understanding the effects of beliefs and belief structures is a terribly important, though often neglected part of any sort of cultural engineering.
posted
Common sense and experience tell us that "one man's bread is another man's poison". How does this not apply to religions as well as food?
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
c.t.t.n., no, I don't agree with you, and I also suspect that you are a not a newcomer. Why are you hiding?
There's a relevant C.S. Lewis quote around here somewhere that could apply, but I'll rely on Tagore:
quote:And it is the privilege of man to work for fruits beyond his immediate reach, and to adjust his life not in slavish conformity to the examples of some present success or even to his own prudent past, limited in its aspiration, but to an infinite future bearing in its heart the ideals of our higher expectations.
posted
KOM- I see your point about criticism. <Deleted>
To answer your question though, constructive criticism is essential to growth and improvement. However, very little of the criticism leveled at Christianity appears to be intended as constructive. On the contrary, most of it seems to be thinly veiled insults of hypocrisy.
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