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Author Topic: Hatrack and World of Warcraft
BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
What do you mean by "cooldown spells"?

cooldown spells are spells that require time in between casting. For example hunters have a spell called, "Rapid Fire" Its 15 seconds with a 40% increase in ranged attack speed. After the spells is cast you have to wait 5 minutes for the spell to, "cooldown" before you can use it again.

Of course not every spell has such a long cool down. Cooldowns can range from a global cooldown (1 second) to a few seconds, to a few minutes, to an hour (hearthstone) to in a few extreme cases a few days, (there are some tradeskills that have cooldowns this long).

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Fitz
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quote:
Unfortunately, in instances, you're very rarely one on one, and your VW will get quickly overwhelmed.
Well yeah, instances are obviously a different story. For the most part, I use my imp for the stam buff. Succubus also comes in handy if the group doesn't have another class for CC. Even the VW can be useful in high lvl instances though. I did a 4 man Dire Maul with my warrior, and really it was mostly possible because of the lock. We pulled 3 mobs at a time, he banished one, off-tanked one with the VW, while I tanked the main. It made the entire instance (DM east) ridiculously easy. Of course, I would never suggest that a VW or other pet was sufficient for tanking an instance group.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitz:
quote:
Unfortunately, in instances, you're very rarely one on one, and your VW will get quickly overwhelmed.
Well yeah, instances are obviously a different story. For the most part, I use my imp for the stam buff. Succubus also comes in handy if the group doesn't have another class for CC. Even the VW can be useful in high lvl instances though. I did a 4 man Dire Maul with my warrior, and really it was mostly possible because of the lock. We pulled 3 mobs at a time, he banished one, off-tanked one with the VW, while I tanked the main. It made the entire instance (DM east) ridiculously easy. Of course, I would never suggest that a VW or other pet was sufficient for tanking an instance group.
I cant get my VW quest done because the damn quest makes me go back into the cave full of bad guys I can't solo on my own. We spent an hour alone in the stupid cafe and passed the quest chest several times but I didnt have the quest then because I was lvl 9 while we were in there [Frown] Ill need a party to help me get to it, I died 3 times trying to do it alone.
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KarlEd
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Are we still on board for a Saturday morning Ragefire Chasm raid? My Orc Shaman is lvl 13 (almost 14) as of last night, and has two quests assigned for FC.

In other news, I need a guild invite for my Orc Shaman (Kuhrak). He's alchemy/enchantment, so if you find and enchantment recipies send 'em his way. Right now he can just enchant bracers.

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kojabu
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So I didn't read through all five pages, but is there some realm where hatrackers seem to be gathering? I've got some guys on Earthen Ring (Alliance) and Shadow Council (horde)
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KarlEd
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We have a Hatrack Guild on The Venture Co. realm (Horde). If you check on the earlier pages, there is a short list of some of the players' names. I'm Kuhrak, and Neredor.
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Rakeesh
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Good luck on y'alls weekend instance run, Karl! (Assuming it's still on, of course).

You guys and some buddies at work are making me want to play again, damnit. Some things I've found very useful for instance runs:

1. Leader. Pick one, and stick to it. This probably won't be nearly as much of a problem with Hatrackers, but havinng two chiefs can get a TPK faster than you can say...well, TPK (Total Party Kill). The leader's responsibility is to be the one to let the puller know when to begin the fights, decide which enemies to attack first and in what order, and to keep an eye on the entire situation in case of adds.

The leader will need to keep their eyes on the health and mana bars of all party members, as well as routinely panning the camera around to watch out for patrols.

2. Announce cooldowns. If you've got a Warlock who can create a soulstone for reincarnation, make sure he lets everyone know how much time is left until the stone expires, or until he can recast it (I forget, though, which level Warlocks get this ability.) Make sure people keep an eye on their buffs. It is often worth the little extra wait to recharge buffs if they'd expire in mid-fight, even if it means a bit more downtime.

3. Two hybrids don't equal one priest. Seriously, if you've got a Shaman and a Druid or something, that's not the healing capacity of even a single priest. Maybe at later levels, if they're both specced for healing and the priest was specced Shadow.

4. Stopping the runners. While it's good to open up with slowing/damaging spells sometimes, that's not when it's most important. You need to make sure your party has a person in charge of slowing down the runners. Sometimes, those little bastards will bolt with surprising speed straight into another group of enemies which means an add of 2-6 elite even leveled foes while you're still mopping up the last bunch. Not hard to do the math on that.

5. Cloth-wearers...if you get an enemy attacking you, call for help and DON'T MOVE. Wait until the enemy turns away from you, and THEN back up to a safe distance and resume your work. One taunt from a Warrior or a nice backstab from a Rogue is generally enough to piss the guy off sufficiently, as long as you're not continuing to attack him.

In other words, if you're a Mage and get targeted by a beefy melee type, call for help, don't move, and ALSO don't continue nuking the monster while getting help. Wait a moment or two until the tank can safely get to the top of that creature's hate list.

An instance run can be a lot of fun with these things, and a major pain in the ass without them. It may seem hyper-nerdy, to have a list like that...but seeing as how you're paying to play the game, I always felt it best to make sure just in case.

Oh, and if possible it's nice to make sure everyone shares quests prior to going in, or gets help finishing the prerequisites before entering RFC.

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The Pixiest
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It's on as far as I'm concerned. I'll be there with bells on.

I haven't instanced much in WoW though.. is RFC a single party instance? If we have too many people can we raid it or will we have to go in seperately?

I know you can go in multiple times so we might have to have one group, then another group after they finish. If I recall correctly from the time I was in there working on weapons skills (being far too high a level) it's not that big of an instance...

Pix/Pernicia/Nefaria

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KarlEd
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I'll be online early with my Shaman who hopefully will be lvl 14 by then. Pix, he isn't a guild member yet so I'll need an invite when someone gets on. (I don't suppose my other character can invite him, right? Both inviter and invitee have to be logged on right?)

What time does everyone expect to be on?

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BlackBlade
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I'm still lvl 10 but Ill be on tonight or possibly really early in the morning and Ill get 13-14 before we all do Ragefire.

Was up way late doing C'thun attempts with my hunter [Razz]

GuiMoShi will be ready to deal massive damage tomorrow morning? Is there a time that is convenient for everyone?

I think 10:00 EST would work for me.

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Rakeesh
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Ragefire Chasm is not a raid instance, Pixiest. The standard rules for raiding apply there, which are if I remember: you can do it, but you'll get neither quest credit nor quest drops from any enemies killed for questing if you're in a raid group.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Ragefire Chasm is not a raid instance, Pixiest. The standard rules for raiding apply there, which are if I remember: you can do it, but you'll get neither quest credit nor quest drops from any enemies killed for questing if you're in a raid group.

It can be 5 manned though right?
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Demonstrocity
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Ragefire Chasm is not a raid instance, Pixiest. The standard rules for raiding apply there, which are if I remember: you can do it, but you'll get neither quest credit nor quest drops from any enemies killed for questing if you're in a raid group.

It can be 5 manned though right?
Yeah, it's designed to be 5-manned.
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kojabu
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Hm I don't know if I want to start a new guy yet, but as I have a tendency to start new toons when I hit the 20s I might end up with one soon.
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Xavier
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Yeah, RFC is a pretty simple instance which can actually done pretty easily by a decent four man group.

While Rakeesh's advice is valuable, don't feel like you need to memorize it for RFC.

And I'm not sure I agree with number 3 of his list for instances up to at least the Scarlett Monastery.

As a Shaman, even enhancement specced, I could main heal every instance up to and including the SM (the highest level instance I've done).

Sure, a priest would have an easier time of it than me alone, but there is no way that me and another hybrid healer couldn't do just as well as a priest.

Going into RFC, WC, SFK, BFD, or SM, I'd take:

Warrior
Shaman
Druid
Mage
Rogue

Over...

Warrior
Mage
Rogue
Warlock
Priest

Any day of the week.

Ideally, you'd have a hybrid and a priest together, such as...

Warrior
Shaman
Mage
Priest
Rogue

When a priest is in my party, I can cut loose with my shaman, shocking, tanking, pulling, whatever I feel like doing. I'd still keep my eyes on my team's health bars, and still throw in a Lesser Healing Wave when the load gets too tough for the priest. On tough boss fights, I'd drop back and help make sure everyone stays alive.

Edit:

And sometimes folks need to not stick so closely to "Warriors Tank", "Priests Heal".

When doing the SM runs after level 40, I had sometimes far more armor than the pre-40 warriors in our group. Sometimes warriors would show up without shields, and I'd have almost twice their armor. I could hold aggro quite well with earth shock as well.

But still, some folks would still say: "Warrior tanks" and not even think about it. I wouldn't question it, but then I'd earth-shock mobs off of the warrior to save his life just about every other encounter.

[ August 11, 2006, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]

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Rakeesh
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Xavier is right...RFC is actually quite small and easy. My personal opinion is that since the Horde is so handicapped numerically, Blizzard decided they could have a nice easy instance right in their primary city. Every single other instance in the game, with the exception of the Stockades I think, takes a bit of a hike to reach.

It's been a long time since I've played at the SM level though, so Xavier could well be right. The trouble is, when you do it that way you're sacrificing two team slots for the effectiveness of one healer. Furthermore, if everything goes to hell-consecutive adds, for instance-two hybrids just aren't going to cut it. If everyone is quite skillful at the game, though, two hybrids can make do.

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Eduardo_Sauron
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Hello, guys. I don't know if I can level my character to 13 until saturday morning (too much work this week. Almost couldn't play). But I'll be online saturday morning, and it'd be spiffy if someone could invite me to the hatrack guild.

See ya this saturday's morning and... good hunting, folks!

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Xavier
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quote:
Xavier is right...RFC is actually quite small and easy. My personal opinion is that since the Horde is so handicapped numerically, Blizzard decided they could have a nice easy instance right in their primary city. Every single other instance in the game, with the exception of the Stockades I think, takes a bit of a hike to reach.
I've never done the stockades, but I thought that it was very similar in difficulty and location to RFC.

quote:
It's been a long time since I've played at the SM level though, so Xavier could well be right. The trouble is, when you do it that way you're sacrificing two team slots for the effectiveness of one healer. Furthermore, if everything goes to hell-consecutive adds, for instance-two hybrids just aren't going to cut it. If everyone is quite skillful at the game, though, two hybrids can make do.
You only are taking two spots if the only thing they are both doing is healing, which is not the case.

Usually, both hybrids are doing other things along with healing for non-boss mobs.

There are benefits to two hybrids versus one priest, most importantly: Two people who can rez! Unless you have a warlock, once that lone priest dies, you can kiss your last two hours of hard work goodbye.

You also get better buffs, and more flexibility. If one hybrid starts to choke in his healing duty, they other can take over. When you only have a priest, the entire team is at their mercy. If that lone priest isn't very good at his role, the instance will be a terrible struggle.

Hybrids can pick up the slack for anybody. Your tank showed up with a two hander? Let your shaman pick up the slack. Or let your druid use bear form. Your priest can't seem to pay attention to the main tank's health? Have your hybrid take over main healing duties. Everyone doing their role just fine? Have your hybrid cut loose with DPS.

Edit:

You may have been able to pick up that I did a ton of pick-up groups. In pick-up groups, you can never count on any member who comes being any good at his job.

Perhaps if I'd teamed with exclusively capable priests, I'd think that having just one was fine. I never want to let my enjoyment over a 2-3 hour period determined by the capabilities of a random person though.

The conversation in pick-up teams (when not on with my shaman) would go something like:

"Awesome, we've got a priest, a mage, and a tank, now lets get a hybrid."

When I was on with my shaman:

"Cool, we have a hybrid and a warrior, next let's get another healer." (where healer meant either priest, shaman, or druid)

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TheGrimace
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just for the record, since I keep seeing people ask:

Currently every instance is at least intended to be a single group (5-man) except the following few that are all lvl 60 instances:
Upper Blackrock Spire
Zul Gurub
Ruins of Ahn Qiraj
Molten Core
Blackwing Lair
Temple of Ahn Qiraj

I may be mistaken, but I thought they had stopped allowing more than 5 players into most instances (maybe it was just the high-end ones that changed) but in either case all dungeon questing until 60 is by 5-man groups only.

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The Pixiest
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Well, it looks like we may have to go RFC twice given the number of people in the guild. So that means double the fun, double the XP and double the drops for those who go twice, right? =)
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TrapperKeeper
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RFC is easy, you could easlily 4 man it if no one was an idiot.

Also, druids can heal almost as good as a priest, even when they are feral specced. Ive healed ST and BRD on my druid and we did just fine. I'll note that I have two sets of gear, one for DPS/tanking and one for healing. You can boost your mana by 2-3k by switching out gear on a druid

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Rakeesh
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Well, the Stockades is an instance where you've basically got to quell a prison riot (lethally, of course;). It's quite a lot smaller than RFC, and consists mostly of enemies packed into small (think shop-sized) rooms, with a few patrols here and there.

What makes it tough is that quite often, runners have only a hop, skip, and a jump to go before they meet some nice adds-usually a minimum of three.

I didn't often do pickup groups. I was either PvPing, or grouping with friends frequently in the same room. I think my experience is colored by that. Since we knew how we played, and our communication was much much better, we routinely handled instances at the minimum level requirements. It just wouldn't have been possible without a priest, at all really. Priests have too many options for negating damage that no hybrid class does.

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Rakeesh
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It's strange to hear you say that, TrapperrKeeper. My experience has been almost completely different.

In a non-instance setting (I forgot to mention this), yes a hybrid can often do the job of a priest. But in instances? No two hybrids-of whatever class and spec-compared to one Holy or Disicipline specced priest. Including BRD, Lair, Strat, Scholo, that one three-branch dungeon whose name I forget in the forest with all the yetis and giants and wolves.

Especially in endgame instances where so often, a Mage is almost required for mass-damage capabilities.

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BlackBlade
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Per my post about my best friends father, I will likely not be lving my warlock this morning. Ill wake up extra early saturday morning and see if I can get him up 3-4 lvls before we start.

Or!

This might sound wierd but is there somebody who would be willing to play my warlock and lvl him today whenever is convenient for you so I can go with you guys tomorrow morning? Ill email you my login info and obviously trust you wont fool around with my other characters (inappropriately) [Wink]

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TrapperKeeper
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DM, Dire Maul. Sure they can, Druids anyway. I'd be nervous with a Shammy. Pallys probably could. Especially since the last update when they buffed druids healing talents.

I'd be comfortable healing on my druid even LBRS if I knew and trusted the group It would require a warrior or another druid who knew how to tank but it could be done. It is very rare in any non-raid instance to actually REQUIRE any class or spec. Granted you need a healer and usually a tank (not always believe it or not), but no where do you REQUIRE a certain class

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TheGrimace
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Rakeesh, I have to disagree with you.

Example: 2 Zul Farak runs about a week ago on my mage (at the time 45)
Group 1:
Me
47 Warlock
47 Feral Druid
45 Elemental Shaman
44 Enhancement Shaman

Group 2:
Me
47 Warlock
47 Feral Druid
45 Resto Shaman (same one, just respecced in-between)
45 Rogue

Never had any problems with healing, and the second run the one shaman was the only one that cast any heals other than the druid occasionally doing his bear-form self-heal. Both runs wen't great, including some tough/bad pulls where I woulnd't have been suprised if we wiped. (no deaths either run of any player)

Of course I'd agree that priests can heal much better than either of the other classes in most cases, and my 30/21 Holy/Disc priest routinely blew every other healer I grouped with out of the water, but in most situations druids and often even shamans can heal instances just fine.

another example was that for our first few months of MC a druid friend of mine was consistantly the top healer in the raid (though that's a whole nother bag of walnuts)

As for the mass-damage of the mage: while certainly the mage's AE-ing is unparalleled, it can certainly be made-up by other classes filling in (and in large part AE-ing is 1-2 pulls in a given instance and those can be muscled through as necessary without it)

I've done literally dozens of runs of BD Strat with no mage or warlock and had no problems (for example). And warlocks are almost as capable in terms of AE (just require more healing).

Also, for straight damage capabilities: a well-geared and capable rogue can easily match a mage or exceed them in most instances.

I'd say an ideal group makeup for most instances might be something like:
Warrior
Priest
Mage
Rogue
Shaman

but there's definately a lot of play that you can do with that and still make things work (i.e. my groups above, or my first character who did a 5-pally run of ZF with no casualties waaay back before the 1000-troll event got so incredibly nerfed)

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TrapperKeeper
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/agreed with grimace
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TrapperKeeper
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Also, in a non instance setting a healer really isnt required AT ALL
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FlyingCow
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Which is one of the reasons the priest is one of the least popular classes.
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TheGrimace
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ooh, other fun group configurations I just recalled:

Numerous stealth runs of LBRS:
3 rogues, 2 druids. Including every boss in the instance (admittedly we skipped much of the trash, but that's generally the easy stuff).

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TrapperKeeper
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Stealth Runs are awesome. Love em. And thank god priests are one of the least popular classes. I've got a lvl 55 right now and it is BY FAR the best PVP class I've played. Was taking down 60 warriors and 60 hunters when I was lvl 52. They are just WAY overpowered.
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Rakeesh
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I agree that non-instance, priests are not required.
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FlyingCow
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You a shadow priest, TK? Priests were like candy for my hunter when I PvP'd - one good aimed shot could really ruin their day.
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Rakeesh
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I also generally had an easy time with Priests-even Shadow priests-with my Rogue, so long as it wasn't a duel. Of course, if they got the drop on me first I'd have to stun and slow `em, and run like hell.
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ludosti
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I've gotten my hunter to 12, but I'm going to be out of town Sat/Sun so I won't be able to come to RFK with you guys tomorrow (I've never gotten to see it before). Oh well, hopefully another time or else in a pug.
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FlyingCow
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Yeah, when I was a hunter or rogue, anyone wearing cloth was a prime target.
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Xavier
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RFK is "Razorfen Kraul", which is a considerably higher level instance than "Ragefire Chasm" or RFC. [Smile]
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Megan
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I'm not going to be able to make it tomorrow, guys. Good luck, though!
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calaban
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I just found out I have to fill in for someone tomorrow so I will be out as well. [Frown]
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BlackBlade
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We are forming up for Rage Fire Chasm right now, remember the enemies base is down and we need 2 more!
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The Pixiest
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I can't go, guys. lil bro's shoes. *grin*

Actually, it was a hoot. We did pretty well with only 4 people and no tank and we managed to finish our quests there.

For those who didn't make it *tsk* We hope to see you next time.

Pix

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Sean
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Sigh. Here we go again.

(Could somebody guild invite Isean? [Smile] )

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Architraz Warden
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Ahh, the age old 'primary healer' debate made it to Hatrack... Well, probably made it around again.

Don't know about Shaman and Paladins, but Druids who choose the healing route and gear for it really can give a priest a serious run for their healing money. Ressing is always a short coming, but it's about the only one since Blizz added swiftmend (priests have my condolences concerning lightwell by the way). My druid has solo-healed everything up to... well, a three-man rend run.

And stealth runs are a great time. My preferred combination is three druids and two rogues. Then again, I'm actually somewhat partial to 5 druids as well... A DM north stealth-tribute run is by far the most challenging / entertaining with any make up in my opinion. LBRS is pretty simple as far as stealth runs go, even BRD is more challenging with the dogs.

I'd join you all on Venture Co., but I'm currently spread a bit thin already for WoW time. Running a guild plus levelling lowbies is plenty of time taken, plus all my old main characters on a third realm.

Speaking of my semi-retired mains and druids, I got invited to a 10-man Onyxia run this week. Wish us lots of luck and lack of deep breaths.

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KarlEd
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Got my main up to 23 last night. (Neredor the Warlock). I'm leaving Kahruk (Orc Shaman) at 18 until the group gets up around there.

I got Neredor as far as Tarren Mill, but the quests there seem really sparse and very hard for the level, not to mention that I couldn't even get to them without getting ganked. The place was crawling with Alliance. So I mostly hunted bears and spiders though I did actually finish two of the quests. Got some nice silver for the looting.

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FlyingCow
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quote:
again, I'm actually somewhat partial to 5 druids as well...
So... tempted... to... reactivate... account...

I only ever did one stealthy type run, and that was just my druid and a rogue hitting RFK. It was so much fun, but I never really got a chance to do it again. Five druids would rock my socks.

But I will refrain.

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BlackBlade
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Who would be down with doing Wailing Caverns sometime this week, and then on saturday hitting Deadmines?

I had a blast doing ragefire, and I want to satisfy my loot lust further! [Smile] Anybody else have an idea as to what they want to accomplish this week?

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calaban
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quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
Got my main up to 23 last night. (Neredor the Warlock). I'm leaving Kahruk (Orc Shaman) at 18 until the group gets up around there.

I got Neredor as far as Tarren Mill, but the quests there seem really sparse and very hard for the level, not to mention that I couldn't even get to them without getting ganked. The place was crawling with Alliance. So I mostly hunted bears and spiders though I did actually finish two of the quests. Got some nice silver for the looting.

Stonetalon Mountains on Kalimdor will have some easier quests for you, take the blimp from UC to Ogrimmar and follow your map. And isn't Needles mid twenties? Or is that thirties? I'm a mostly Alliance player.
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_L
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quote:
And isn't Needles mid twenties? Or is that thirties?
This page may help: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/regionlevels.html

Bear in mind that it's generally wise to enter a region at or around the halfway point between its levels, so that you can grind green/yellow mobs/quests until you're high enough to take on the oranges and reds.

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KarlEd
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Well, at 20 my warlock got the quest to allow him to summon a succubus, but that quest sent him through Tarren Mill and into the Wetlands, where all the mobs are 25-30 and higher. I could have finished the quest at 20, theoretically, if I could avoid the mobs, but I could bare move around TM without getting ganked by Alliance players so high their level was "??". Now I'm up to 23 and still no succubus. I'm going to try again when I get home.
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_L
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quote:
Well, at 20 my warlock got the quest to allow him to summon a succubus, but that quest sent him through Tarren Mill and into the Wetlands, where all the mobs are 25-30 and higher.
That happens quite a bit with class quests. The quest for Warriors to receive their Whirlwind axe/sword/hammer is received at 30, but pinnacles in the summoning and defeat of a 40 Elite elemental.
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