posted
I can see where art history, music theory, and theatre would be a waste of time for large portions of students.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Yes, Stephan, more so than mine as well. Well, Eighth grade follows my own experience fairly closely, although I was only in Latin I and with no other language, but this has more to do with what I thought, and think, should be taught. I also did take art history every year and music theory in sixth grade, but my school lamentably lacked a theatre program.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Interesting that you chose to spread Algebra I over two years. I think that avoids the biggest objection I was going to have.
You are clearly describing a curriculum that is not intended for the vast majority of students. Eight periods a day, a dead language for everyone. Just what is "common" about this curriculum? This plan would shut a lot of doors needlessly. If this were a Pre-IB curriculum, I would object less strenuously, but your curriculum, were it the law of the land, would make middle school beyond the reach of most.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
It's challenging, but I see less emphasis on math and science versus the humanites.
[edit] You have a health class, so I assume phys-ed is included somewhere in there -- I hated it, but with childhood obesity becoming what it is, I think it should be a requirement.
posted
Why Latin, as opposed to Greek or German? Do you have any specific works in mind?
And I'm not sure that Catch 22 should be considered a great or seminal work. It's good book. A book that should be read, and a book I've read a few times, but 1) I think it's too long to be given adequate treatment in class, 2) It's not terribly deep. Steinbeck or Salinger would prove better fodder if you are looking for 20th century lit., in my esteem, with Catch 22 to be read over the summer.
quote:Gilgamesh, the Odyssey, Grimm's Fairy Tales, Catch-22, The Tempest
I'm curious, why Gilgamesh and not Beuwolf, the Odyssey and not the Iliad, and Grimm's Fairy Tales rather than Chaucer?
In general, what are your goals with this curriculum. Until you state them, the list is going to sound like just a list of things you like to study.
posted
When you change the average home life of urban youth to include valuing education, time spent with parents on education, and entertainment avenues that value education, this might begin to have a hope at working.
Extracurricular factors will, in my experience, trump curricular ones. The best curriculum in the world cannot combat an accepted and willful culture of apathy. You can plunk the great works in front of a teenager with no interest in reading them, and there will be no learning.
The greatest and most eloquent presentations in the world will fall on deaf ears if the audience is disinterested and places no value on the presenter.
(P.S. Your posts have shown some improvement, btw. There's still a long road ahead of you before you really start taking your audience into consideration, but it seems like you're at least walking on it, which is good to see.)
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posted
I think you make a good point, FlyingCow, but you don't seem to be considering that even under the best societal circumstances, some of Pelegius's courses will simply be impossible for some students. Would you deny a student a middle school education simply because learning Latin is an impossibility?
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posted
scratch latin. require spanish as the foreign language. (esta es AMERICA. Aprende la lengua, ese.)
Add the choice of mandarin or japanese at 8th grade. The next generation is going to need to know both.
scratch english lit and focus on spelling and grammar. Keep the short stories in 7th grade. You're going to lose the kids attention with poetry and epics.
Lose art history and keep theatre. Most kids love to ham it up on stage. Theatre will teach them culture without losing their attention. Some singing should be involved with this too. If you can sing you can entertain yourself, by yourself forever. (no onanism please)
Keep geography, history, the math and the science. Especially lab science.
Add keyboarding. Kids MUST learn to type these days.
Add "Life Skills" probably in 10th grade. This will include simple stuff like how to write a check, how to do your taxes, how to fill out a job applciation, how to organize and pay your bills, how to spot a scam. The basic skills you need to survive in this society that school typically doesn't teach.
Move Philosophy to 10th grade. We don't teach philosophy in american high schools and we seriously need to. Most people have no basis for their beliefs except someone told them that God said so.
posted
You completely neglect physical education (as JTK pointed out) as well as vocational training (art history but no art, music theory put no performance, no shop, no Home Economics or economics at all). You're light on science an technology (one computer science class, one science class/year) and heavy on humanities.
Your proposed curriculum is fine for somebody interested in becoming a Humanities professor, but I think it fails in its goal of being "common."
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Some courses are impossible for some students. For instance, I know basic sixth grade math was impossible for one of my students, regardless of how motivated he was to learn and how many hours of tutoring and extra lessons he came in for. Fractions and division were simply beyond his grasp. (I suggested a learning disability, which the parents are now investigating.)
I think, though, that most students, given motivation and interest in a topic, can learn. If for some reason the hottest new video game, hottest new rap artist, and hottest new movie all had elements of Latin that made them popularly valued, you would see a marked increase in the number of students enrolling in Latin courses.
I don't think learning Latin is impossible - at least not any more impossible than learning any other language. It's a matter of interest and use. If the girl you have a crush on speaks Spanish at home and with her friends and at work, you have a vested interest in learning Spanish so you can use it to be part of her world. Such scenarios do not happen with Latin.
However, if the national culture started to value Latin (in pop culture, games, movies, etc), and people started to speak it amongst themselves at home, there would be more hope in teaching it to the masses.
Since that is not (nor never again will be) the case, it's unrealistic. No interest = no learning.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
My major complaint is the lack of focus on writing. I'd cut back on the 6th grade English Lit to 1 semester, and devote the other semester solely to persuasive and descriptive writing, with an emphasis on grammar and structure.
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posted
I do like the idea of art history over "art". I had an art teacher in middle school (art being a mandatory course) who only based ones grade on how good your art project (painting, clay work, etc...) was. I barely managed a "C", and hated art for the next 5 years. I just have no artistic talent whatsoever. I eventually developed an appreciation, and started to love going to museums.
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posted
honestly, most students don't need Algebra spread over 2 years, especially since there is a large overlap in Pre-algebra and Algebra 1A curriculum. If a student is prepared to take Pre-Algebra in 6th grade, there is no reason why they shouldn't be prepared for geometry (or some sort of mildly restructured Algebra II if you think that geometric proofs are too challenging conceptually for 8th graders)by 8th grade. From teaching experience, the 2 year Algebra 1 course is really only good for students who struggle in math (that is to say, it really should be used solely for remediation). The pace is incredibly slow and I've found that most of the students who succeeded in Algebra 1A & 1B were not prepared for the faster pace of geometry (and subsequent math classes) after those 2 years of crawling through the curriculum.
Now, adding a large dose of Algebra II content could work, but then the class would be a 2 year Algebra I/Algebra II hybrid. Which could work, since a lot of Pre-Calculus content overlaps with Algebra II content. This would require a complete restructuring of the math curriculum, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing.
Posts: 748 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Most of the usefull lessons I got from Jr High and High School came from my Orchestra class. And, as an employeer, I would protest that unless your teachers understood the principals of "school to work" this curriculum is insuficient to support modern life in the US.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Add "Life Skills" probably in 10th grade. This will include simple stuff like how to write a check, how to do your taxes, how to fill out a job applciation, how to organize and pay your bills, how to spot a scam. The basic skills you need to survive in this society that school typically doesn't teach.
I would like to add that I think students should be exposed to credit reports. I have graduated college, am married, have a baby, and have for the first time this year seen my credit report.
I don't know how it works--I do have a good friend has his MBA and runs a bank branch who is helping me understand it. My score is already rising (it wasn't as nearly as bad as I thought it was, and now it is quite ok.).
I would like to see real world examples in schools how different scores on real report (with account #s blotted out) and have kids figure out how differences in interest rates would affect total cost on car payments and house payments.
Educate kids on credit. I would leave this for highschool, but I would introduce the concept in middle school.
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posted
"You completely neglect physical education (as JTK pointed out) as well as vocational training " This was highly intentional.
"I'm curious, why Gilgamesh and not Beuwolf, the Odyssey and not the Iliad, and Grimm's Fairy Tales rather than Chaucer?" The Illiad is neither as interesting to most students, nor, I think, as influential a work as the Odyssey. Beowulf and Chaucer will be taught in 11th grade, although I admit to this being arbitrary. I disagree with you about Catch-22, which is both interesting to students and important in its themes and literary devices.
"scratch latin. require spanish as the foreign language." Spanish, French or German would be the most likely firs foreign languages, taught in Elementary and Middle School, note that I made room for these.
"Add "Life Skills" probably in 10th grade. This will include simple stuff like how to write a check, how to do your taxes, how to fill out a job applciation, how to organize and pay your bills, how to spot a scam." Too vocational (we are training doctors, lawyers, profesors, journalists etc. here), and mostly common sense anyway (I for one have never been scammed, even in Turkey, and never had such a class.)
" You're going to lose the kids attention with poetry and epics." All children love epics, observe the family film market.
p.s.: I considere typing to be part of computer science,
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't see the real reason for Latin. Of course, I live in Miami; it's not like we have much a choice as to what other language to speak around here...
I always wondered what I would have chosen if I had elective choices as early as the sixth grade. By the time I had those choices, my path was pretty much set as to what I wanted to do.
Someone mentioned your literary choices; I think there's more to it than that. I read Catcher in the Rye in a Jesuit school, which is probably unthinkable these days because on how that book is viewed by the moral majority. I've seen schools pick books that, although they are arguably not the staples needed in literary teaching, they are the works that cause smaller waves.
And, if you're talking public schools, I seriously doubt you'll have them bring up a "spiritual epic" because of church and state connotations (I've never read it, so forgive me if I'm incorrect in that).
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posted
So...essentially you're writing the curriculum that YOU would want...not one that would be defined as "common".
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You're not creating a 'common' curriculum with this process... you're creating a curriculum for students who are gifted in multiple fields...
I'm a smart guy... in fact when it comes to math/science I'm a very smart guy. I STINK at foreign languages. While it'd be nice to speak one I haven't ever found it truly detrimental not to.
I for one would be incredibly annoyed if I was forced to take a dead language instead of a class that might actually be useful... like some classes in computers etc.
Many 'average' students don't find life skills to be 'common sense'... if they did there wouldn't be so many scams that work and there wouldn't be so many people under a mountain of credit card debt.
But the fact that you're not creating a common curriculum isn't your fault... unless you're willing to dumb it down to the least common denominator you simply can't make a common curriculum.
Anyway, that's how I see it
Posts: 409 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Highthawk, Life of Pi would doubtless be challenged, but should pass any reasonable test, as it clearly does not promote one religion above another (although it is highl anti-agnostic at some points, while allowing for atheists.) I think that if it is taught as the charecter's opinion, rather than irrefutable truth, it will work.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: p.s.: I considere typing to be part of computer science,
That, to be blunt, is foolish. There are ALOT of people who will never need/want/take a comp-sci class that would benefit very much from a typing class...
If you said it was part of a 'basic computer skills' or 'word processing' or 'office automation software' class then OK, but computer science implies a heck of a lot more (programming, networking etc).
Posts: 409 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
"scratch english lit and focus on spelling and grammar." Elementary, my dear Pixiest. As in the level of school that should be taught in. Notice he ends his sentence is preposition, probably too much time spent on Summerian epics in middle school.
A note on the most common complaint, any curriculum, applied at the statewide level, e.g. the French pre-Bac system, is common. I shall add more electives in secondary school.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think that typing should be taught in elementary school, for the same reasons we teach cursive writing in Elementary school.
Maybe that's not true. Typing should be taught in elementary school for some of the same reasons we teach curvise writing in elementary school.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Spanish, French or German would be the most likely firs foreign languages, taught in Elementary and Middle School, note that I made room for these.
Not french or german. Spanish. It's our 2nd national language. French might be useful in new england, but spanish is spoken by a huge and growing segment of our society.
quote: "Add "Life Skills" probably in 10th grade. This will include simple stuff like how to write a check, how to do your taxes, how to fill out a job applciation, how to organize and pay your bills, how to spot a scam."
Too vocational (we are training doctors, lawyers, profesors, journalists etc. here), and mostly common sense anyway (I for one have never been scammed, even in Turkey, and never had such a class.) [quote]
I assure you, as a man, you will need to know how to organize and pay your friggin' bills. I've never known a man who could do this right, including my ivy league educated husband.
Sorry guys, I'm sure there are exceptions out there, but it's true.
And we're not JUST educating the upper crust or you would have called it a Gifted curriculum instead of a COMMON one. Maybe you chose your words poorly?
[quote] " You're going to lose the kids attention with poetry and epics." All children love epics, observe the family film market.
Films are effortless. Reading takes much more time, attention and work. The two are not comparable.
You never see 12 yr old children bugging their mom to buy them Tolstoy at the book store.
quote: p.s.: I considere typing to be part of computer science,
mm... possibly... but there's a lot to cover on both of these topics. I'm not sure smooshing them together will work.
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posted
I haven't used cursive since elementary school for anything except signing my name. What's cursive writing for? May as well teach slide rule.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
In my opinion, grammar is not something that should be taught in elementary school and then neglected throughout middle school and high school. I think that grammar—along with other basic topics in English linguistics—should be taught all the way through primary and secondary education.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Irami, Probably. Our greatest danger is procrastination, leaving things that should be taught in secondary or middle school to the university level and things which should be taught at the university level to the graduate level. We, as a country, do this to a very great degree, more so than most other developed countries.
Although I love English, I do not intend to take it my first-year year at university, not when I could, and hopefuly shall, be learning about Homeric Archaelogy and Athens in the age of Peracles (both first-year courses at Oxford's school of Ancien History and Classical Archaelogy.)
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Pel, I'm not sure what part of my post you are addressing, but I do know that I don't agree that procrastination is the biggest problem. Once we figure out what to do and why, proves to be the easier part. Figuring out what do and why seems to be the trickier parts. Moral clarity and vision isn't easy, and it's not cheap, but it makes the action that follows a lot more compelling and attractive.
Pix,
quote:Not french or german. Spanish. It's our 2nd national language.
That's true. My arguments for German, Greek, and Latin don't stem from their being useful foreign languages; I think that we should learn German, Greek, and Latin because of those languages, and the seminal works written in those languages, influence on American English language and thought.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
"I think that grammar—along with other basic topics in English linguistics—should be taught all the way through primary and secondary education." Why? Time is limited and there are more important things than that/which usage (something I admit to never having mastered.) Thank God for copyeditors.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Students today will use typing skills on a regular basis. I stopped writing in cursive as soon as the option was presented to me.
For what it's worth, I do think that an understanding of basic Latin and Greek terms can be very helpful, particularly in classes where students must learn vocabulary. However, I'm not sure studying it extensively (as extensively as, say, Spanish) should be a priority.
posted
Ignoring physical education and vocational skills? Pfft. You know nothing, child.
Any intelligent human being realizes that decent hand-eye coordination and physical fitness are essential to living. Just because you got a few wedgies and were the target of all the first throws in dodgeball doesn't mean that learning how to do a proper situp and how to catch something someone throws at you isn't a valuable skill.
Not everyone learns by reading books. I am an excellent example of this. I have a really high level of reading comprehension. I have always scored perfectly on all of those sections of any standardized test I was ever given (not that it's hard). However, I understand a concept far better seeing it executed than reading even a well-written explanation in a technical manual or book. Almost everything I consider myself to be knowledgable in (Computers, Car Repair, etc) has come from practical experience.
And, seriously, there will come a time when you'll realize that knowing how to use a circular saw and a drill is a really freaking handy life skill.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Snowden: Would that we could learn all foreign langauges... but alas we're going to be limited by what we have time to actually speak. Becuase if you don't speak it you forget it.
As we are limited, we need to pick the ones that are most useful. Spanish is #1 in that list. Mandarin and Japanese vie for #2. Everything after that is interesting intellectual pursuit.
They should be saved for interested intellectuals to pursue and not be included in a common curriculum.
I was taught how to use a slide rule. Granted, it was in a gifted program, but still.
quote:p.s.: I considere typing to be part of computer science,
Some people above are confusing "computer science" with "computer literacy". Typewriters, in and of themselves, are useless, but I think everyone can benefit from basic typing skills, even if they don't graduate beyond "hunt and peck" a word a minute.
Then again, in my experience I've noticed that, if you do take a compu-sci class, you're expected to know how to type already. Besides, with modern day exposure to computers in schools my five year old types almost as well as I do.
"How to write a check"? I was never taught that. And, by the time they may be old enough to need it, odds are they won't have to anymore. Welcome to the Plastic Age.
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posted
"It's our 2nd national language." This is a dangerous mindset, many student will doubtless be working in the U.K. or France or Germany. Brussels is already becoming a destination for the best students from around the world, and there they speak French.
"Mandarin and Japanese vie for #2." Although Tokyo and Beijing are important cities, they cannot claim to be world capitals like Brussels, London, New York or even Vancouver For one thing, they are too isolated from the rest of the developed world and, as a result, are very ethnically homogenous. ASEAN is not yet the global power that is Nato (French and English), the E.U. (twenty languages).
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Nighthawk: I pay my credit card bill with a check, actually. And at 16 many of them will already have a checking account into which they deposit their mcjob check.
But writing a check was just an example. It could be they're taught how to pay their bills on line.
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posted
Fortunately, many European countries already speak English fluently. While I have nothing against learning German, French or other languages, anyone staying in America is much more likely to need Spanish.
It's also handy for vacationing in Cancun.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Don't get me started on cursive, at least 3 quarters of my class loathed it when we were taught it, or forced to write in it.
I go to public schools and in Elementary we did have typing courses (which I completely forgot, but I'm doing fine) but we didn't learn any foriegn language expect a few phrases in Music or Social Studies.
I agree with taking out Art history. Most of the kids in my class would rather learn how to paint, instead of who has painted. My Art teacher last year had us read from textbooks almost every class. But I'd keep theatre. Pretty much everyone liked it. It gives us kids a chance to write and act. At least, we got to play fun games and write two plays.
As for having sixth graders read Tolkien, I don't think many would pay attention. I'm an avid reader and can't wait to read LOTR, but many of my friends just barely suffered through The Egypt Game .
I'd agree with not teaching Latin. Teacher's would have a hard time getting kids to learn, since we constantly point out why we'd never use it in real life. (Still haven't gotten an answer back from a few teachers )
I'd also disagree with continuing the forgein language. At my school, we learn Spainsh in sixth, French in seventh, and German in eighth. Then in High School, we get to chose what language to continue, if we want to.
Posts: 1164 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:"Mandarin and Japanese vie for #2." Although Tokyo and Beijing are important cities, they cannot claim to be world capitals like Brussels, London, New York or even Vancouver For one thing, they are too isolated from the rest of the developed world and, as a result, are very ethnically homogenous.
This is changing, though. The sheer size of China's economy is going to make the language more important in the future. And even though the nation is rather homogenous and probably will remain so for some time, I suspect more students are going to opt to study there in the future as China becomes more important to our foreign policy.
quote:Time is limited and there are more important things than that/which usage (something I admit to never having mastered.) Thank God for copyeditors.
Most people working in offices don't have the benefit of copyeditors. Between the graduate who knows and understands Gilgamesh and the graduate who can write a coherent and well organized essay, I'll take the latter. More writing!
Posts: 170 | Registered: Mar 2001
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I don't want to learn all foreign languages. Just English, and attending English thought, well. We don't speak or think in English very well because we don't learn the Latin, German, and Greek language and thought that gave birth to the words we use.
I'd rather we'd speak with clarity and percision in our one mother tongue. Spanish is great. Mandarin is great. But you are talking about teaching languages for commerce, I'm talking about teaching languages for life. The same way we don't teach history for commerce, we teach history for life.
James T. Kirk,
I'm talking about basic Latin, Greek, and German, one maybe two years of each, anything else would be elective.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
"well organized essay" there is no such thing. Books are organized, essays, being so very short, simply flow from the fingers into one thought, supported by others. The five-paragraph essay is, perhaps, the greatest monstrosity of middle school education. Orwell did not use five paragraphs in "On Shooting an Elephant," nor did Jefferson write a five-paragraph "Declaration of Independence." I could go on, Wittgenstein did not use paragraphs, etc. but I shant.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Organization does not mean adhering to a strict rule or template - it means putting the pieces together in the way that best communicate the point of the work. Good essays are most certainly well-organized. Good paragraphs are well organized. Good sentences are well-organized. Any piece of communication that contains three elements or more has an organizaton, and effective communication is organized well.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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*throws his hands up* Whatever. Quit being a git. If you want other people to take you seriously, do them the favor of taking them seriously. Edgehopper has a point, or at least a true belief, do him or her the courtesy of addressing that point.
James T. Kirk,
I just didn't want people to think that I wanted to mandate that every future ditch digger become an expert classicist.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: "well organized essay" there is no such thing. Books are organized, essays, being so very short, simply flow from the fingers into one thought, surported by others.
No. All writing is organized. Otherwise words it's random just.
Even a short essay needs a structure to effectively convey what you're trying to say.
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