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Uprooted
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So I guess I'm kinda being a poster child for the attitudes OSC described in his "Are Mormons Funny?" essay!
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by TheHumanTarget:
quote:
*Provided, of course, that they're wearing an unmarked facsimile, and not the real thing
Wouldn't the facsimile be representative of the real thing? I guess what I'm trying to say is, wouldn't the fake garment (with or without the symbols...more questions on that later) carry the same level of reverence and respect as the real garment. The same joke would still apply, and I imagine that the same hurt feelings would occur.
I actually could understand them making the joke; I don't know that I would find them mocking what is sacred to me funny, but I could understand the joke being there, in context. After all, people on tv shows make sex jokes all the time that I don't find very funny. But they don't show people having sex to make the joke (at least, not most of the time. I don't get HBO.) They show people in bed with the sheets mostly covering them and nothing on their shoulders, sometimes the woman in lingerie; you don't know what is underneath the sheet. To me, making a facsimile of the Temple garments with markings is crossing a line that just mocking it without showing the markings or anything does not quite cross.
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ludosti
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quote:
Wouldn't the facsimile be representative of the real thing? I guess what I'm trying to say is, wouldn't the fake garment (with or without the symbols...more questions on that later) carry the same level of reverence and respect as the real garment. The same joke would still apply, and I imagine that the same hurt feelings would occur.
I think it is worth mentioning that it is the presence of the markings that makes them sacred. Without markings, the garments are nothing more than cloth.
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King of Men
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What a thing to get your knickers in a twist over.
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JennaDean
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Thanks, ludosti.
quote:
Wouldn't the facsimile be representative of the real thing? I guess what I'm trying to say is, wouldn't the fake garment (with or without the symbols...more questions on that later) carry the same level of reverence and respect as the real garment. The same joke would still apply, and I imagine that the same hurt feelings would occur.
Again, I didn't see the show. But in general, I don't think they should be mocked or that the characters wearing them should be mocked. I do see the potential need for showing them in some other context though. So in that case, if it's a joke about garments, yes, it would still be hurtful. But if it was some other context and was respectful, it wouldn't be hurtful.

The reason I care that it be a facsimile is because we do hold them sacred, and get them under sacred circumstances, and they represent covenants we've made. For someone to wear them that hasn't made those covenants is ... I hate to use the word blasphemous, but I can't think of a better one. It would rub me the wrong way and I wouldn't want to see it.

They could use similarly cut clothing that didn't have the markings (which, as ludosti said, are what makes them sacred) and the point would be made. Anyone not Mormon wouldn't know the difference, and any Mormon would understand why they didn't look exactly right.

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TomDavidson
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The difference between a yarmulke joke and a garment joke is that Jews will themselves make yarmulke jokes, whereas Mormons don't consider the garments a valid subject of mirth.
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JennaDean
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Not in your hearing, anyway.... [Big Grin]
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Belle
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I'm curious - how old are most people when they start to wear garments?

And, are there any occasions where it's okay not to? I was thinking about this when I was watching "So you think you can dance" and the Mormon competitor Benji was on. When he chooses his own costumes, for his solo work, he's completely covered so if he's wearing garments or not, no way to tell. But he HAS worn costumes that included sheer shirts and one that exposed his chest, so in those cases I'm certain he wasn't.

Can you not wear them for something like dancing? Or, for example, sports? There are strict rules in gymnastics competition about what you can wear, for example, and it must be a leotard without skirt or shorts, so no way you could wear one without exposing a gament. In that case do you just forego wearing them to compete or does the requirement keep Mormons from participating in such sports at all?

I hope that's not an offensive question.

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katharina
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That's not an offensive question at all.

You start wearing garments when you go through the temple. This happens before going on a mission (age 19 or 21, when I started), before getting married in the temple, or, if neither has happened and the person feels ready and like it's something they want to do, around mid-twenties.

Steve Young, who used to play for the 49ers, did not wear his garments when practicing or playing. I don't wear mine when I work out. My clothes are modest enough that I could, but I discovered that with all the twisting and reaching and sweat, I worried more about how my garments were showing and getting filthy and how hot I was. I decided that I could wear regular underwear and sports bras and keep the modest workout clothes. Some people are not as comfortable with that and prefer to wear their garments while working out.

I do have a limit - I wear them when playing leisure sports instead of an intense workout, and I would wear them playing golf or to picnics.

In the case of gymnastics, they would not wear them. I don't know if Benji wears garments regularly or not, but if he's an RM and an active Mormon, then probably yes. I can't really comment on his costume choices - I haven't been involved with that. To be honest, it makes me uncomfortable. Even in situations where I am not wearing them, I would prefer to wear clothes that cover the same area.

Anecdotally, they are very comfortable when they fit correctly. No panty lines, no wedgies, slips rarely necessary. Not wearing them unless I'm actively working out makes me kind of uncomfortable now - oh my stars, I'm completely naked underneath my clothes!

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Taalcon
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The principal is, we're to look for ways and reasons to be able to wear them, and not seek out excuses not to.

They are worn as constant tangible reminders of Christ's Atonement, and of covenants made - and in some cases, wearing them acts as practical resistance to different forms of covenant-breaking.

It would make most wearers think twice about committing a sin in the heat of the moment, if you'd have to physically remove a tactile symbol of your covenant with God to do so.

[ August 04, 2006, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

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Belle
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That makes sense, thanks for answering.

In the case of competitive gymnasts, it would probably not even be an issue because most people quit competing before they would go through temple, it sounds like.

One of my daughter's friends is Mormon, and I know she dances, so I suppose it's the same thing with dance costumes. Speaking from a personal point of view, not a Mormon one - I think most dance costumes are far too revealing, they make me uncomfortable. I'm fortunate in that the studio my daughters have gone to for years and that we will be returning to is run by a Christian woman who is very particular about her costume choices. The studio we were with this past year, I moved to because it was closer to home and it was horrible. Their competition team got lower marks at a competition because the judges commented that the costumes were too revealing for the age group. It's one of the reasons we're going back to the old studio, it's further away but some things are more important than convenience.

One of the things I do admire about the Mormon faith is the importance placed on modesty. I think many Christian congregations should pay more attention to it. Some of the things teenagers wear to church makes my jaw drop on Sunday mornings.

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