quote:The Defiant (or any Romulan vessel) can take out the Death Star without the Death Star being able to put up a fight. There's such a disparity in fantasy technology between the two worlds that it's not even worth comparison.
[dork]Meh. The Death Star's the size of a moon - the Defiant wouldn't make a dent. And that's with the force field *down* - with the force field *up*, any cloaked ship would just explode on impact with it. Besides, the Force can see through cloaking devices.[/dork]
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: I'll admit, I've never seen DS9 or Enterprise. But I've seen a far amount of TOS, TNG, and Voyager and all of the originality, deep moral decisions, and sweeping storylines that people are talking about must be taking place in DS9 and Enterprise.
I think TOS was pretty original for its time. But now it's been done and redone so much that it no longer seems inventive. TNG was great about presenting interesting sci-fi ideas. It reminds me of reading Asimov short stories. Like Asimov, it is definitely about ideas not characters. Voyager did not impress me. DS9, especially the later years, is about characters and ideas and is thus the best of the Star Treks. For some reason, I never really watched Enterprise so I can’t comment.
If it’s not obvious, my vote goes to Star Trek. Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wow, three pages now! Hmmm, I guess I should post my answer now.
-- Star Trek - had the first African America Woman on TV, Had a russian character during the start of the cold war and most importantly the first ever interracial (sp?) relationship on TV. All great stuff when it comes to sociohistorical relevance.
BUT
-- Star Wars - is what got me into scifi anyways, there wasn't a day that went by when I was growing up as a kid that I didn't wish that star wars would come on TV. I remember running into my parents bedroom at like 6:00am on a Sat just to tell my Mother that Star Wars was on HBO. It has tremendously impacted the way movies are made and gave light to Industrial Light and Magic, which is partly responsible for the effects in almost every Star Trek movie that has been made to date.
So which do I thin is better neither. I would pick Battlestar Galactica, JK.
Honestly couldn't pick that's why I started the thread to see how many people were torn on such a interesting topic.
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: As for Lucas as director, aside from A New Hope, he has only ever directed three crappy star wars movies, THX-1138 and American Graffiti.
Let him produce... or tie him up and toss him in a closet somewhere. Bring in some directors who have a clue in their head what they are doing.
I thought he did Howard the Duck as well, but it seems that he only produced it. It's funny when you think of that movie being the reason Pixar came in to existance ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091225/trivia ).
Han Solo vs. Captain Cisco The two toughest men in the universes.
Han Solo smiles.
Cisco shrugs his shoulders and smiles back.
"Listen friend, just give up now. Not only am I Han Solo, who could kick your backside up one side of the Sith and down the other, I'm freak'n Harrison Ford. Nobody touches Harrison Ford. Who are you?"
"I'm the Emmisary. I'm the Cisco. I'm the guy who punched Q in the face. I'm the guy that's going to shoot Harrison Freak'n Ford."
Han Solo shrugged his broad shoulders, relaxed, and very subtly unhooked his holster snap. Then with a blur the blaster was in his hands and he was shooting Cisco.
Cisco barely had time to reach his phaser before the shot should have blown him away.
Instead time rewound.
The shot went back into Han Solo's gun, as the Giant hand of George Lucas materialized out of nowhere and began to digitaly alter the scene. His booming Godlike voice echoed, "We can't let Han shoot first."
Cisco smiled, pulled out his phaser and shot first.
posted
If you kill Harrison Ford, I think you have to stop. That goes way too far, making Han Solo lose. I've lost faith in you. Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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As the two enter the arena both draw weapons. Janeway, relying on years of formal Starfleet training, and the smaller, easier to handle phaser vs the bulky blaster that Leia fires two handed, manages to shoot the weapon out of Leia's hands.
"Surrender Princess."
"Never. You'll have to kill me, you skruffy looking Nerf herder." Princess Leia said defiantly.
Captain Janeway took careful aim, then "I could easily kill you, but this brings up the question of how the Prime Directive should be read to dertermin if such a mover is correct. If I kill you, would that alter the course of your society? Do I have the right...."
While Captain Janeway went on, and on and on, Leia slowly bent down, took Han Solo's blaster, smiled, and blew her away. Captain Janeway was shocked to discover her own private moral dilema shattered by the blaster's firery explosion within her lower abdomen.
Q appears in the battle arena. He looks around. In one darkened corner of the round arena, some mysterious movement is seen. "Hello!" calls Q patronizingly
"Anybody over there?" Nothing.
"Oh please. Here I was asked to face off with this all powerful thing, this force that holds the universe together. Well, the only omniscient, omnipotent one in this room is, well me."
Silence.
"Oh come on. What is this thing anyway that can "destroy a sun" and is "more powerful than all the armies ever gathered." I mean, couldn't it find a more interesting name? "The Force". How original."
"You're one to speak, Q" came the terse reply from the shadow.
"Oooh, it speaks." Q walked closer, staring into the void. "Darkside/Lightside, power of the Universe, tell me what you are before I dispose of you."
From out of the shadows came the reply.
"I'm Chuck Norris!"
Followed by a righteous Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick that sends Q's head sailing across the room.
"Well why didn't you say soooooooooo" responded the head as it continued to fly, reaching orbital velocity within 18.2 minutes.
posted
Darn right. Chuck Norris will never lose! WOO Chuck Forcis. (Norris + Force = Forcis) You have redeemed yourself for killing Harrison Ford. Good Job!
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I'd have to disagree with you there- I thought that Voyager was the best ST series I've seen (I haven't seen DS9 yet though... so don't kill quite yet). It was more interesting seeing them being alone and suriving by themselves than TNG with the flagship and the fleet backing them up.
Star Wars is easy to just sit down and watch and enjoy oneself (that is- if you don't listen tow hat they're actually saying). But Star Trek is better.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dan, you forgot to compare them on errant technology. Like V-ger and transporter accidents versus malfunctioning hyperdrives and Imperial walkers that tip over.
Oh, and automatic doors. Star Trek had the best automatic doors. They opened and closed with the speed of a guillotine. Of course the death star had that one door in Ep 3 that closed like a falling rock.
Oh and food and drink. Replicator Earl Grey, in bone china versus foil wrapped energy bars...
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The Star Wars movies, for their faults, weren't bad because of poor directing. American Graffiti was hailed and cheered when it came out, and ever since.
Either way though, I don't think he should direct much again, but what he is great at, he is REALLY great at. He shouldn't remove himself from film entirely.
Direction isn't just coming up with great visuals (and I'd argue that while the prequels had great *technology*, the actual cinematography and art design were, by and large, dull and uninspired). An equally important part of direction is helping the actors to come up with great performances. Lucas is arguably decent at the former, but he's pretty much complete trash at the latter. Virtually every single actor in the prequels has done great work elsewhere (even Hayden Christenson), but Lucas' complete inability to direct his actors turned even the brilliant Liam Neeson into a wooden marionette.
I think many/most of the visuals in Star Wars, the prequels and otherwise are fantastic and awe inspiring. "Arguably decent" doesn't do him justice.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The Star Wars movies, for their faults, weren't bad because of poor directing. American Graffiti was hailed and cheered when it came out, and ever since.
Either way though, I don't think he should direct much again, but what he is great at, he is REALLY great at. He shouldn't remove himself from film entirely.
Direction isn't just coming up with great visuals (and I'd argue that while the prequels had great *technology*, the actual cinematography and art design were, by and large, dull and uninspired). An equally important part of direction is helping the actors to come up with great performances. Lucas is arguably decent at the former, but he's pretty much complete trash at the latter. Virtually every single actor in the prequels has done great work elsewhere (even Hayden Christenson), but Lucas' complete inability to direct his actors turned even the brilliant Liam Neeson into a wooden marionette.
I think many/most of the visuals in Star Wars, the prequels and otherwise are fantastic and awe inspiring. "Arguably decent" doesn't do him justice.
Eh, diff'rent strokes. Although, go back and watch Episode 1 sometime. I just did, about a week ago, and was absolutely shocked at how dated the visual effects and art design have already become. Some of the compositing is truly cringeworthy. Ironically, the only stuff that still worked well were the *practical* effects: Darth Maul's makeup is still frighteningly effective, for example, and the Neimoidians at least look like they were physically present in the scene rather than being copy/pasted in later. But the digital stuff? Meh. I'll take DS9's space battles any day, and many of those were done with plastic models and hastily glued-together "kitbashes" of Star Trek toy sets.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Tarrsk, if your trying to make it seem in any way, that Star Wars battles don't look 1000 times better than Star Trek battles, and that in some miracle, Star Trek battles are better; I have two words of adivce for you:
Give up.
The effects from Episode One still look fantastic, and I have no idea where you are getting that they don't look good.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I think he was just talking about the visual effects and yes some of the all green screen stuff does look a little dated. I remember everything being very bright and ovverly bright at that.
Where as in Episodes II and III things were a little darker and made the effects look a little more realistic and not so green screened?
But then again maybe not?
Posts: 871 | Registered: Jul 2006
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You could be right, B34N, but I still say the graphics from Episode One are astounding to this date.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I don't think that Star Wars v. Star Trek is a fair comparison. Star Wars is essentially a Fairy Tale wrapped in a science fiction package. Star Trek is an actual science fiction show.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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No, I am not debating that just trying to clarify what I think Tarrsk was trying to say. I'll pick episode one over any of the effects in the Trek movies with the exception of maybe First Contact and Nemesis, but you can't really even relate the two together because Star Wars has so many more effects shots that it's insane.
Posts: 871 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Tarrsk, if your trying to make it seem in any way, that Star Wars battles don't look 1000 times better than Star Trek battles, and that in some miracle, Star Trek battles are better; I have two words of adivce for you:
Give up.
To a certain extent, this is really just a matter of personal opinion...
quote:The effects from Episode One still look fantastic, and I have no idea where you are getting that they don't look good.
...never mind. Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about.
quote:Originally posted by B34N: I think he was just talking about the visual effects and yes some of the all green screen stuff does look a little dated. I remember everything being very bright and ovverly bright at that.
Where as in Episodes II and III things were a little darker and made the effects look a little more realistic and not so green screened?
But then again maybe not?
It's not just a question of brightness. The compositing of digital elements into filmed footage in Episode 1 is extremely primitive. Take a look at the shots where a digitally animated character has to interact with a "real" object... the lighting is off, movements aren't quite coordinated, and the CG character will seem to slide past everything around it. This gets better in Episodes 2 and 3, although the CG clonetroopers never managed to look at all realistic. They always hit the "uncanny valley" of animation: human motion close to the real thing, but just "off" enough that it looks fake (and vaguely creepy).
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Ah yes, because you are the master of special effects are you not? That title belongs to ME, thank you very much. I still don't know why you say Episode One graphics are out of date.
Actually, I'm sorry, and I apologize to you, because you appear to be blind. Maybe one day they can help you.
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Wow, at least people are passionate about their CGI here. I am very glad to see that. For years I was stuck with a bunch of people who thought CGI was the worst thing that happened to filmmaking.
Posts: 871 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:The Defiant (or any Romulan vessel) can take out the Death Star without the Death Star being able to put up a fight. There's such a disparity in fantasy technology between the two worlds that it's not even worth comparison.
[dork]Meh. The Death Star's the size of a moon - the Defiant wouldn't make a dent. And that's with the force field *down* - with the force field *up*, any cloaked ship would just explode on impact with it. Besides, the Force can see through cloaking devices.[/dork]
The specific limitations of Star Wars technology is too great. You can engineer a zillion ways that Star Trek's egregiously overboard fantasy technology can trump Star Wars' merely somewhat overboard fantasy technology.
Re: defiant v. the Death Star. A cloaked vessel doesn't have to worry whatsoever about defensive networks, and has the liberty to play with any of its technological advances that Star Wars does not have. Like teleporters, which could be used to teleport anything anywhere with impunity aboard the death star. Like, perhaps, powerful m/am explosives or a Quantum Singularity Device (if the ship is romulan) beamed straight into the highly volatile core of the Death Star.
Or they could just use multiphasic shielding and go hang out in the center of a nearby star while lobbing directed solar flares.
Or they could take a page from the latest crappy Star Trek movie, and spray the whole damn ship with thalaron radiation from a comfortable distance, instantly turning all organic material on board into a strange dusty carbon whatever substance.
Really, you can take your pick. There's just so many ways you can elict a cry of 'laaaaaaame' from all the pro-Star Wars theorycrafters. Star Trek totally has the edge in whacky overboard technological magicks!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Star Wars: Different species often spoke different native languages, and characters either relied on their own understanding of the other language (e.g. the Solo and Greedo confrontation) or made use of an actual translator (like C3PO).
Star Trek: Language issues were usually ignored, unless they were needed for some plot point, or to make Klingons sound cool. Or sometimes, they were explained away with automagic "universal translators", which somehow not only made everyone understand each other, but also somehow made everyone look like they were talking the same language.
In Enterprise, some episodes attempted to deal with language, and make it self-consistent ... But IMO, they didn't work very well.
I prefer the Star Wars approach to language. I like how its universe seems more linguistically diverse than English-speaking Hollywood.
(That said, I can still watch and enjoy Star Trek. The language thing just adds extra weight of disbelief to deal with.)
Posts: 120 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dav: Star Wars: Different species often spoke different native languages, and characters either relied on their own understanding of the other language (e.g. the Solo and Greedo confrontation) or made use of an actual translator (like C3PO).
Star Trek: Language issues were usually ignored, unless they were needed for some plot point, or to make Klingons sound cool. Or sometimes, they were explained away with automagic "universal translators", which somehow not only made everyone understand each other, but also somehow made everyone look like they were talking the same language.
In Enterprise, some episodes attempted to deal with language, and make it self-consistent ... But IMO, they didn't work very well.
I prefer the Star Wars approach to language. I like how its universe seems more linguistically diverse than English-speaking Hollywood.
(That said, I can still watch and enjoy Star Trek. The language thing just adds extra weight of disbelief to deal with.)
Goes back to the fact that Star Trek is technology and physics, but Star Wars is fairytale and fantasy. Everyone in Star Trek spoke different languages, but it's explained away by the magical "univesal translator".
Star Wars everyone understood everyone else, as if by magic. Hearing R2 and Chewie talk and get understood was like a bad episode of Lassie.
"What, R2? Leia's stuck in a well? Where?"
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Count me as one who loves both - Star Trek is more to think about, but Star Wars is just plain more fun. I care more about Star Wars. So I think it was said before - when I want to think, I watch Star Trek; when I want to enjoy myself and care about the people involved, I watch Star Wars. (But only the original ones. Episode 1 got boring after the pod race, I actually fell asleep in Episode 2 and I never cared enough to see Episode 3.)
But I have to agree with the thing about R2D2's language - why would humans design a robot that they would have to learn another language to communicate with? Wouldn't the first order of business be to create an easy user interface? I've got no problem with the myriad other languages spoken by other creatures, but to make something and then have to learn another language to communicate with it is ridiculous.
He is cute, though. Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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R2 units were neve meant to be understood through beeps and whistles. They're astromech droids, they go in fighters and talk to the pilot via the console in front of him, and then they go in a storage locker. The fact that the fighter pilots got really attached to them is incidental, and is why in some later generations of the R-series, some were given the ability to speak, or at least to interface much more easily.
If I was going for realism I'd prefer the Star Wars take on language. But it's fantasy/sci-fi, the universal translator is fine with me. It's been used since day one. If you can't get over it by the time you've watched umpteen seasons of Star Trek, I don't know how you watch sci-fi at all.
I think the graphics in the Star Wars movies are fantastic. I think ILM and George Lucas are making them better every day. But I DO like the battles in Star Trek better than in Star Wars.
Let me amend that, I live the big ship fights in Star Trek better, but I love the fighter dogfights in Star Wars just as much. I wish they could combine the two, but they don't usually show much of the fighters in Star Trek.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: He is cute, though.
Hey, if you like R2 that much, you'd love the first segment of Ep3 in which he kicks some serious robot ass.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Actually, I thought that was pretty dumb. That scene relied entirely on the droid soldiers being incredibly inept and stupid.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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