quote:Do you tip the guy giving you an oil change?
To which I replied:
quote:If you're going to compare mechanic's wages to server's wages, I don't think we can have any sort of meaningful conversation on the topic.
To which you replied:
quote:Ah. So you concede that tipping constitutes charity?
Not quite sure the connection there. Because I understand the expectations of service v. compensation of a waiter and the expectations of service v. compensation for a mechanic, I feel that tipping constitutes charity?
Maybe we have a different definition of charity. In my mind, charity is money you give to the helpless or poor, expecting nothing in return. It's money you give to someone who did nothing for you who you don't expect to do anything for you out of the goodness of your heart.
You can give a homeless person money as charity, or you can donate money to cancer research as charity. You can give a person who's gone bankrupt money to get back on their feet, or you can buy computers for a school district without the funds to do it themselves.
Maybe here's a big distinction in my mind between "charity" and "gratuity/tip". One is given for the reason of being nice, the other is given as a response to service. I think the term "gratuity" is inaptly named even, feeling it's more of a compensation than a gift, in any event.
Admittedly, this thinking may be nonstandard. I don't know.
The following may better illustrate the distinction in my mind between what is charity and what is not. Take two individuals:
Person A stands on a street corner with a sign asking for money and his hat upturned on the street in front of him.
Person B stands on a street corner with a trumpet playing jazz tunes with his trumpet case open on the street in front of him.
Conceding that this may be a completely nonstandard point of view on this topic, I feel giving money to Person A is charity while giving money to Person B is (normally) not.
Why?
Because Person B is performing a service, admittedly unasked for, and asking those who appreciate that service to compensate him in some monetary way.
Now, some people will ignore him and walk on by. That's fair. Some people will stand around and listen, maybe asking for a special request, and will toss some money in his case for his efforts. That's also fair. Some people will see him no different than the panhandler and give money out of charity/pity/sympathy. He's not going to give it back because of this intent, certainly, though he has no way of knowing if they appreciated the music or just took pity on him. And finally, some people will stand and listen, perhaps asking for a request, and then walk away leaving nothing.
In my possibly nonstandard opinion, even though that last group has no obligation at all to provide any money for the service they enjoyed, they should have contributed at least some small something as compensation/payment for the musician's efforts.
They stopped, they enjoyed the performance, and then they moved on. They're well within their rights to do so and probably thought "hey, free entertainment" before leaving the musician with nothing. It seems somewhat selfish to me, that act.
The expectations for Person A and Person B are different, and I'd imagine Person B playing his trumpet would expect to receive more than Person A doing nothing, at least in the long run. I also would think Person B would have the right to be frustrated if he drew a big crowd all night long, so much so that there was a ring three people deep, and then had no money at all to show for it at the end of the night. All those people listened and enjoyed, but none thought it was worth any money?
Of course, this is a more extreme example that's likely very fuzzy in terms of what the social expectations are. I think there is a weak social contract that if you stand around and appreciate a performer, you should probably chip in at least a coin or two. Surely, the performer is expecting more compensation from those who stand around and listen than from those who walk by without stopping, which is logical (at least in my mind).
With regards to service, there's so much of a social expectation that "table service = tip" that, when asked what a standard tip is for standard service, most people would chirp out 15% by rote. Because this is so ingrained in our culture, with both patrons and servers having certain expectations ingrained in them regarding what the routine should be, it seems culturally deviant to receive standard or better service and leave a substandard (or no) tip.
Now, let's look at the comparison to the mechanic.
There is a different set of social expectations with regard to every profession. Mechanics tell you what they found to be wrong, explain the service they will be doing, then give a price. You then either accept, allowing them to perform service on your car and then paying the price, or decline, refusing to let them do service on your car and paying nothing.
The mechanic has two things to consider when setting the price: parts and service. How much are the parts worth, and how much is his time worth? Both of these come down to basic standards.
The parts cost is determined by the retailer of the part. If you buy it on your own, you may get a better price than if you buy it through the mechanic/service station. If you go to a junkyard, you may get it even cheaper.
The amount charged for service is based on time. The times for service are standard as well, with books listing the amount of time each and every service will take on each and every type of car. The only variable is the mechanic's hourly fee, which may vary from service station to service station.
Before the mechanic does service, he outlines the total cost - including both the parts and labor. A server does not have that option. The prices listed on the menu are for parts only, and the labor costs are effectively determined by the consumer after the fact.
A mandatory service charge would bring the server's line of work far more in line with a mechanic's. "You ordered $100 in food, and this restaurant's service charge is 18%. Your total bill will come to $118. Do you still want this food, or would you like to find another restaurant?"
While that would take the guessork/variance out of server salaries, I don't know if I agree with it. Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist that people can be considerate and adequately compensate their servers if educated regarding the way the system is set up.
The article that sparked this thread focused on a man who wanted to change the system to both take the variance out of server compensation and to take the gift-like nature of that compensation away.
I don't know if I agree with that, or at least agree to a 20% standard rate. I might agree with my tip timer idea, though, wherein the tip amount is clearly displayed and adjustable at certain intervals.
quote:Again I state, I know that the person in Wal-mart is only making minimum wage, so I should have to tip them to make up the difference in their salary too
Back to Osty's comment that ties in.
Every job has different expecatations. You expect that a fastfood employee gets an hourly compensation. You expect that a car salesman gets a commission of the price you pay. You expect a substitute teacher to get a per diem salary. You expect a website designer to get paid per job (and possibly for maintenance of that site over time). You expect a teacher to have a salaried contract that increases every year in increments.
You expect a server to get a small wage heavily supplemented by tips.
Going into the doctor, you are aware of the expectations and payment - mostly through your insurance. Going into a computer store, you are aware of the expectations and payment - you pay for a product, and perhaps a service plan or warranty. Going into a restaurant, you are aware of the expectations and payment - you pay for your food, and tip the server accordingly.
People who go into a hospital and expect to pay in gold coins are certainly far outside socially established norms. People who go into a restaurant and expect to pay for food only and leave no tip at all regardless of service are far outside socially established norms.
You don't tip a Walmart teller because that's not part of our societal norms - though you can do so if you wish. If you do, you will likely be looked on as generous (even if a bit weird). You went above social norms, thus generating perceptions of generosity.
If you don't tip a waitress after acceptable service, you fell short of social norms, thus generationg perceptions of stinginess.
It's not the job itself but the social expectations tied to interactions with those doing that job that govern behavior.
Which is why different countries have drastically different takes on tipping, server salaries, etc.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:You expect a server to get a small wage heavily supplemented by tips.
And, again, WHY should this be so? I keep expecting a Russian guy in a beret to start fiddling in the background.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Well, as to why it should be so, I don't think that's as important as the fact that it *is* so.
As to why it *is* so, I don't know.
But, at the moment, it is so, for better or for worse. It would take a lot to change the system.
The guy in the article is trying to do so, making a mandatory service charge included, much like a mechanic, I guess. People balked at having to pay a mandatory tip, and likely would if it were called a mandatory service charge, as well.
Tipping lower or not at all won't change the system either, it will just abuse the system. The restaurant makes the same money, the customer saves money, and the server loses money.
Boycotting restaurants won't change the system unless a massive portion of the population jumps on board, which I doubt they ever will for such a boycott.
As it is, the system is making everyone money, so it's not likely to change. Servers will be unhappy at the small minority of people who leave insultingly low tips, but for the most part they make the standard - which is why it's a standard, after all. (though the average has increased from 15% to closer to 18% in recent years).
But *should* it work this way? That's like saying *should* we still have the electoral college? There's not much you can do about it one way or the other.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But *should* it work this way? That's like saying *should* we still have the electoral college? There's not much you can do about it one way or the other.
I have to admit that this way of thinking is completely foreign to me. Why can't we get rid of the electoral college?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I don't think the social contract is legitimate because clearly some people don't believe it exists. And if 99% of people understood and accepted this contract, then why are we even having this debate?
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you tip the guy giving you an oil change? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To which I replied:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you're going to compare mechanic's wages to server's wages, I don't think we can have any sort of meaningful conversation on the topic. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But right here you are basically saying that I should not tip a mechanic because of his salary and I should tip a server because of their salary. Hence my point on tipping just minimum wage.
quote: In reality, the point of a tip is to pay for your service as a separate expense from your food
Hear you tell me that tipping is to pay for my service, I do not know may who gets paid $15 an hour yet I am paying my server that.
quote: If you choose not to tip at all, you are essentially stealing the services/time of your server - like jumping out of a cab without paying.
This is alot different, I am not skipping out on my bill. There is no comparison here. It is closer to me not giving the neighbor a christmas present at christmas.
quote: The servers believe that they'll get *something*. It's very rare that you get stiffed entirely.
But see there is the flaw in the system, believe you should get something and being guarenteed you get something. There was a time in this nation where tipping was a gift left for service, but servers have now come to expect it so if you don't leave a tip you are a "jerk". Where as the opposite mentality should be in place, if anything is left the server should be thankful, no matter the amount. Because there is no legal binding agreement when a person walks into a restaurant that they will leave something. Just because it is expected or the social normal doesn't mean it must be done.
I do it because my mother did it because her mother did it, is not an excuse to force everyone to fit into your standards of what must be done.
quote: Far too many people who are "on a budget" go out to restaurants and shortchange their servers. It is not the server's fault that these people shouldn't be eating in a restaurant if they aren't prepared and able to compensate him for his service.
quote: While tipping is not a requirement by law, to give no tip (or to tip 10% or less) is either incredibly ignorant or incredibly selfish, and those that habitually do so should simply stop patronizing restaurants that use servers.
quote: No, it's not necessary to tip, but if you don't (and have any understanding of the system), you're a selfish freeloader.
As long as they can pay the bill for the food they ate there are no other requirements of eating in a restaurant. There maybe expectation from the server, but that is all they are. I expect a lot of things I do not get, it is part of life.
quote: You don't seem to understand this law. The waitperson may earn 8% of their total sales, but not 8% of the restaurant's gross income.
Directly for the IRS:
quote: As an employer, you must ensure that the total tip income reported to you during any pay period is, at a minimum, equal to 8% of your total receipts for that period.
In calculating 8% of total receipts, you do not include nonallocable receipts. Nonallocable receipts are defined as receipts for carry out sales and receipts with a service charge added of 10% or more.
I have also worked as an accountant and done taxes. I do know this law very well.
Posts: 224 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Adding 20% to the bill and calling it a "mandatory gratuity" is a contradiction in terms and therefore just flat immoral. It's a *lie*.
Calling it a service charge is not as offensive, but it's still pretty worthless. If you're ordering a $9.95 dinner, why pay an additional $1.99 as a service charge? Why not just charge $11.95 for the meal?
After all, they don't figure that the costs of electricity to light the restaurant and add that to the bill as a "utilities charge." They don't add the cost of the dishwasher in there.
Adding extra charges is just a dishonest bait-and-switch tactic. They are putting one price on the menu and charging another.
If the tip is optional, then I have control over it. If it's a service charge, then I expect to be told the real price, not broken down into separate charges that I have to add up.
Can you imagine if the grocery store reduced prices by ten percent and then you went grocery shopping and when you rang up your purchases they added back in a 10% service charge? What is the purpose of that except to exploit people?
Having an optional tip is perhaps defensible. Having a service charge tacked on is not.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Adding extra charges is just a dishonest bait-and-switch tactic. They are putting one price on the menu and charging another.
If the tip is optional, then I have control over it. If it's a service charge, then I expect to be told the real price, not broken down into separate charges that I have to add up.
I don't think adding a line for the service charge to a bill is being dishonest at all. I work in a hotel catering department, and it is understood that all prices quoted are "plus plus." Plus service charge, plus tax. Despite the initial upset shown by some people here, it could become standard fare to have a service charge on all service industry bills.
On the bill the restaurant would tell you what the cost of the meal is, which would include all utilities, and on a seperate line tell you what the charge is for the labor. They would have a seperate line so that you would know what you are paying for; for the same reason there is a seperate line for the tax. I don't see any dishonesty there.
Another bonus to having a service charge added to the bill is that there would be no more talk of a person's income being "charity." If you take the word gratuity out, maybe people wouldn't have a problem with it being mandatory, because there would be no contradictions. The restaurant is merely telling you, "Based on what you've ordered, we are going to pay your server this amount of money. When added to the cost of your meal, you owe a total of this much money." This is an excellent idea.
quote:And everything is more expensive in California.
Yes; consider that a good starting point for an actual living wage for, say, a single mom with a kid who has a mother willing to watch the kid for free while she works so she doesn't have to pay for childcare, just food, rent, gas, clothes, etc., is probably, oh, about $13-$14/hour.
How do you know that the server is a single mom with those attributes and if your argument is that I should give her(?) charity because she has it tough, does she actually have it any tougher than someone that actually does work at minimum wage?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
just for reference purposes, you are all aware that most restaraunts already include gratuity in the bill for parties 6 or larger (generally 18%). Whether you agree with it or not, that is the reality of life at the moment.
if you want to argue that tipping should not be a social norm or "requirement" then you should also be arguing that server's wages should be increased to compensate (and as a result restaraunts would be forced to raise their prices). if suddenly everyone stopped tipping except for exceptional service, and then starting at 0% rather than 15, then a huge portion of the population would suddenly be taking a huge pay cut.
you also absolutely have to accept that different jobs are going to have different pay schemes. sometimes this is evidenced in perks or benefits or time off or salary or the possibility of gratuity. It is worth noting that when you go to places such as Walmart it is probably against company policy for an employee to accept a tip. for example: I used to work at Panera Bread Company and got payed a reasonable salary at the time (at least a bit above minimum wage in highschool) and at times I had to turn down tips from considerate people to whom I was bringing their drink or food. This is in recognition that the food establishment in which I worked was recognized to pay an adequate salary without the need for gratuity.
the system on which "sit-down" restaraunts in this country is based works differently. Servers are expecting to recieve some sort gratuity-based pay, else they would not accept such low wages. As an engineer I expect to be payed a fair salary wage and recieve good medical and other benefits as well as things like a 401k, payed time off etc... however, this generally means that I'm in a position to be required to work overtime without added pay etc... there are different expectations from field to field as to how compensation works.
to scholar: "I don't think the social contract is legitimate because clearly some people don't believe it exists" then I don't think the social contract that people shouldn't kill each other is legitimate because clearly some people don't believe it exists. namely murderers.
and if you want to try arguing that tipping isn't the law, then look at the quoted IRS numbers. While technically the 8% is not a required tip, if that wasn't being covered by the general populus in their normal tipping practices you could be sure that we'd see a rise in restaraunt costs in order to cover that 8% that they would be required to pay their employees... Covering it in the form of tips is a matter of social courtesy, and an allowance for the customer to directly input to the server's pay, rather than it all being filtered through the restaraunt itself.
If you don't think it's right to be held to this social norm of tipping in the range of 15% for sit-down restaraunt service then accept the fact that you will probably be viewed as a jerk. Just as if you decided that the social norm of holding the door for others and not spitting at people you don't like wasn't valid you would also be considered a jerk.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:But right here you are basically saying that I should not tip a mechanic because of his salary
A mechanic's wage expectation is guaranteed based on time worked, a server's wage expectation is not guaranteed but assumed.
Hence, a big difference, and not due to amount, but the expectations of service. For a mechanic, I pay for two things: parts and labor. For a server, I pay for food and tip for labor. There's a significant difference in the way their wages are calculated, and the way their jobs operate.
Comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges.
quote:It is closer to me not giving the neighbor a christmas present at christmas.
It's closer to you going to your neighbor's house, sitting with kids all night with a big bag of gifts, then walking out without giving them any. As I've said now probably five times, you're not required to give them anything. But if you act out the scenario just described, those kids have every right to think of you as a jerk.
quote:There was a time in this nation where tipping was a gift left for service
Operative word: was.
quote:servers have now come to expect it so if you don't leave a tip you are a "jerk". Where as the opposite mentality should be in place, if anything is left the server should be thankful, no matter the amount.
You and Tom with that "should" word. Let's talk about what "is" instead. You *will* be thought of as a jerk for walking out without leaving a tip, whether you feel you should be thought of that way or not. The server *has* an expectation of a tip based on massive amounts of prior experience, whether or not you feel they should or not.
quote:Just because it is expected or the social normal doesn't mean it must be done.
I'll make it a sixth time. No, it doesn't mean it must be done. But deviating from the social norm or social expectations will be noticed, either in a positive or negative way. You either deviate by giving more than standard(being considered generous) or you deviate by giving less than standard (being considered stingy or cheap or worse).
You don't *have* to do anything. Lemme repeat. You don't *have* to do anything. Once more for effect. You don't *have* to do anything.
At least as the system stands now.
But, your choices have social reprecussions, and choosing not to tip will create a negative social view of you from the perspective of the servers, whether you feel it *should* or not.
quote:As long as they can pay the bill for the food they ate there are no other requirements of eating in a restaurant. There maybe expectation from the server, but that is all they are.
More proof you don't get it. Once more. You don't *have* to do anything. No requirements. You're not *required* to do anything. You're free to do as you like.
They're free to think of you as a jerk or as a wonderful person, based on your actions.
quote:I expect a lot of things I do not get, it is part of life.
Bully for you. I expect my neighbor not to tear the plants out of my garden while I'm at work. If he does, does that mean I can't think of him as a jerk?
quote:I have also worked as an accountant and done taxes. I do know this law very well.
I preface this by saying I could be totally off base, but..
So far as I can tell, nothing you quoted there has anything to do with paying a server 8% of the restaurant's total receipts, as you said before. For such a thing to happen, if you had 13 servers, the restaurant would be paying out over 100% of its total receipts. Or did you mean to say 8% of the server's receipts? Because that's not stated in the law you just quoted.
Find me the passage where it says "if the server fails to report 8% in tips, you are required by law to pay the server the difference". I'm curious about that one.
Maybe it's there. I don't know.
Reading it more closely, these words stood out: "As an employer, you must ensure that the total tip income reported to you during any pay period is, at a minimum, equal to 8% of your total receipts for that period."
Is there a passage wherein it says the "individual tip income" reported must be at least 8% of "that individual server's total receipts"? Anything about the individual in there at all? Or is it the total tips of the entire restaurant v. the total receipts of the restaurant?
I don't know. You seem well versed in finance law, though. Please explain. Is there subsequent case law that further defines the text you quoted? Maybe that's where the guidelines for individuals come in.
quote:Calling it a service charge is not as offensive, but it's still pretty worthless. If you're ordering a $9.95 dinner, why pay an additional $1.99 as a service charge? Why not just charge $11.95 for the meal?
This is more the mechanic model. "Your food cost $50 and your service cost $7.50, for a total of $57.50." They would just charge the whole amount, but it would be broken down for you, much like a mechanic does, into parts and labor.
I don't think I like that setup, but it works for some of the finer dining restaurants like Per Se, it seems.
In my own experience, I very, very rarely added the 18% gratuity to large parties, because I was confident I'd get more than that - and I would. Other waiters swore by automatically added in gratuity for large parties.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
My point is that people are claiming that a tip is required because it is a social contract we have all agreed to. But, clearly not all of society agrees to this or else we would not be having the debate, and people wouldn't feel the need for forcing tips. I would need some proof that this is the social norm. The murderer example isn't valid because murder is against the law- tipping is not. I would agree that the holding doors is analgous because there is a debate on whether that is social norm as well. If I don't have my hands full, I do not expect people to hold a door open for me. If I did, I would have to consider a lot of people jerks.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:How do you know that the server is a single mom with those attributes and if your argument is that I should give her(?) charity because she has it tough, does she actually have it any tougher than someone that actually does work at minimum wage?
What? What are you talking about? I was just saying that I'm in favor of paying servers at least minimum wage because if they weren't paid minimum wage they'd have no hope of making it. I was just pointing out that an actual "living wage" in CA is much higher than in much of the country.
posted
Not everyone needs to agree to something to make it a social contract, scholar.
Let's take an example that's not illegal. How about riding with your high beams on in traffic. It's certainly not the norm to be driving with your high beams on all the time. It's also not the norm to do it when you are right behind someone. There are two possibilities. First, you are unaware that your high beams are on. Second, you are aware but you don't care enough about the driver in front of you to turn them off.
I'd say it's socially expected not to blind someone with your highbeams in traffic, though people do it all the time. They're either unaware or inconsiderate of others. They are violating expected norms of behavior, and the drivers in front of them are justified in being frustrated or thinking they are jerks.
Still, the person with their highbeams on didn't agree to the social contract of considerate driving practices. Does that mean it's not a social norm?
In the social contract that forms a system of government, does everyone agree to every aspect of it? Does that void it as a social contract?
quote:I would need some proof that this is the social norm.
This is easy to find. Ask the first 100 people you meet on a US street, "Is it common practice to tip a server in a restaurant?" Then go to 100 US restaurants and ask every server, "When you wait on a table, do you normally get a tip?"
Scholar, forgive me if I just haven't paid attention to other posts you've made in other threads, but are you originally from the US? I'm having a hard time believing that you could be from the US and honestly think it's not a social norm to tip in restaurants.
It's like thinking it's not a social norm for there to be fireworks on the Fourth of July.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Not really. I've always thought that tipping was pretty dumb. But this thread has brought into focus exactly how stupid a practice it really is.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
This thread makes my brain hurt. So much so that this morning I had dinner at a Chinese restaurant, and as a tip I left the keys to my house.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
In general, I object to itemized "service charges" as well, because traditionally those service charges are never included in the advertised price of the good or service. In an ideal world, prices WOULD be itemized, but only the final actual price would be advertised.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Not really. I've always thought that tipping was pretty dumb. But this thread has brought into focus exactly how stupid a practice it really is.
mph, the concept of tipping in general, and who deserves to get tips and who doesn't, may be dumb. But the reality is that people working jobs where the majority of their salary comes from tips make really low hourly wages. So regardless of whether tipping is a stupid practice, those people rely on it for sustinance. To get rid of tipping the restaurant would have to charge more for the food so they could pay the servers more. Thus negating any money you would have saved by not tipping. At least with tipping you are allowed to decide what kind of hourly wage your server receives based on how good they are at their job.
Also, i haven't read much of this thread, but I assume someone has mentioned how in Europe(not all of it) there really isn't tipping. Servers make a higher salary and have benefits and don't rely on tips to pay the bills. It's their job, like any other job.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
In me own case tonight, I best toddle off to me bunk as I've a skinful of Schnapps. Before I break character.
Aye, CT, ye've a vast dirty imagination. And Queen Anne, I'd take you hostage for a queen's ransom o' condiments iffen I was on your coast. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:To get rid of tipping the restaurant would have to charge more for the food so they could pay the servers more. Thus negating any money you would have saved by not tipping.
I don't think most people who think tipping are stupid think it's stupid because they can't afford to tip, or aren't willing to pay more for their food.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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People tip for all kinds of reasons, and don't tip for all kinds of reasons.
Some of the reasons make no sense, some of them do. People tip because they're in a good mood, or don't because they're in a bad mood. The weather can affect tip amount, even.
It's just those who refuse to tip as a rule, or who tip very low as a rule, are being inconsiderate, imo. Just as those who tip high as a rule are being generous.
I'd love it if people truly tipped based on service quality alone. Perhaps a 15% average, with poor service pushing that number lower and great service pushing that number higher. Then, at the end of every night a server could see either: I made 11%, what am I doing wrong? or I made 18%, I'm doing better than average!
As it is, the customer is a larger factor than service quality. Their mood, their attitudes toward tipping in general, their financial situation, etc. Great service does not necessarily equal great or even good tips, and awful service does not necessarily equal bad or even below averge tips.
Here are my best suggestions (within the current system):
- find an average you're comfortable with - 15% for sake of argument, because that's a widely accepted standard.
- eat at restaurants where an additional 13-18% to the cost of the meal is within your budget.
- Tip higher when the server adds to your restaurant experience, and tip lower when the server detracts from it - all while keeping in mind what is and is not within your server's power. More is within your server's control in a very small restaurant than in a very large one.
- If service is bad enough that you consider leaving no tip, talk to a manager and have the problem addressed.
- If you're a generous person by nature, your average might be higher - 18%, perhaps. If you're an ungenerous person by nature, your average might be lower - 13%, perhaps.
- Along with this, understand that servers will be more kindly disposed to the former than the later. Generosity is viewed as a positive social trait, after all, and its opposite is viewed as a negative one.
- Consider your own behavior when considering tip, as well. If you were abnormally messy, took an abnormally long time at your table, or were very complicated(i.e. many special requests and orders that the server happily addressed), keep that in mind when thinking about compensation.
- Nothing is mandated or required when considering tip - and no tip is required at all - but at least consider some of the points made in this list before settling on an amount.
Does any of that seem unreasonable?
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
This thread is frustrating to no end, and this shall be my last post in it. I just can't believe that there are people that will argue so vehemently against tipping. I was initally very suprised, and a little pleased, that there were inteligent people who support the practice of not tipping/tipping poorly. It was interesting to hear how they articulated why they felt the need to hurt other people. It isn't interesting anymore. It's just mean.
I'm going to be tipping my servers far more from now on, in an effort to make up for what they are loosing due to misplaced principles.
It doesn't matter that the restaurant should pay their servers more. Maybe they should, but they don't. What matters is that there is a huge population of servers in America that work very hard and deserve to be paid for it. Why not pay them? It has been said that the reason is not lack of funds, but presumably due to some principle. So, you have the money, you know that the server relies on tips to support themself and their family, and you don't tip them. That, to me, is very selfish.
I could really care less what the service industry payroll policy should be. I know what it is, and I will pay my servers when I go out to eat. If those of you that are arguing against tipping well really act the way that you perport you do, well, I'm sorry. I thought some of you were better than that.
But hey! It doesn't matter how much servers make, it doesn't matter that they need tips to survive. There is a principle here galdernit and I'd rather screw over strangers than bend! Nice.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:If you're a generous person by nature, your average might be higher
See, this is exactly the impression that I think is flawed. Someone's generosity of spirit is unlikely to be be accurately measured by their tacit support of the tipping tradition.
quote:What matters is that there is a huge population of servers in America that work very hard and deserve to be paid for it. Why not pay them?
Because it's not my JOB to pay them. Lots of people work hard and are underpaid for it. Do you tip dishwashers?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Yet, I'm pretty sure you do. You may say how unfair it is to have to, but I can't imagine you leaving no tip for a server who did his job, simply because you feel the restaurant should pay him and you shouldn't have to.
So, in principle, sure, you shouldn't have to pay them, and it's not your job to pay them. In practice, your tips pay their salary, and to withhold that on principle isn't exactly considerate.
quote:See, this is exactly the impression that I think is flawed. Someone's generosity of spirit is unlikely to be be accurately measured by their tacit support of the tipping tradition.
Where might one's generosity be accurately measured? Is there a metric unit for generosity I missed in middle school?
Generosity, like most behavior, is gauged based on past experience. If you're used to smiles in the workplace and you move to a workplace that has none, you may measure those people to be less happy - whether that's accurate or not. If you're used to getting verbal abuse in the workplace and you move to a workplace that has none, you may measure those people to be kinder - whether or not they are.
If a server is used to 15% tips, and they get a 25% tip, they'll see that as generosity more often than not. If they get a 5% tip, they'll see that as someone being cheap more often than not. All based on past experience in similar situations.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Okay, so because it is not required of you to tip, you are completely comfortable with your servers going home without enough money to support themselves? You are aware, I assume, that a server's minimum wage is far less than the minimum wage for any other labor. You are aware, I assume, that they require tips to survive. Yet you still see no problems with sending them home with less money than they can afford to live on?
And yes, if dishwashers made 2.15 an hour I would definitely march my happy a** back into the kitchen and hand them cash. Not because anyone is forcing me to, or because there is a social norm, but because there is a person working back there that should be compensated. It's not about what you have to do, it's about what you should do.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:If a server is used to 15% tips, and they get a 25% tip, they'll see that as generosity more often than not.
I said nothing about the server's perceptions. People who do not tip may still be very generous, indeed. Their server may not think so, but that server might in fact be wrong. (In the same way, someone who left you a $100 tip may not be generous; he could simply be slightly drunk and hoping to sleep with you.)
That there's a social expectation of tipping does not speak to the morality, effectiveness, or utility of tipping as a mechanism.
quote:Okay, so because it is not required of you to tip, you are completely comfortable with your servers going home without enough money to support themselves?
I'm as comfortable with this as I am with the thought that the guy scanning my groceries is going home without enough money to support his family. Like I said, servers are not third-party contractors. I'm not responsible for their salaries.
quote:And yes, if dishwashers made 2.15 an hour I would definitely march my happy a** back into the kitchen and hand them cash.
*blink* Have you worked in the restaurant industry?
quote:People who do not tip may still be very generous, indeed.
How so? A person has a very good server in a restaurant and has the money to tip, but doesn't. That was not generous. I wouldn't make any claims about the person's personality on a whole. Maybe every other time they are generous, but that one time in that restaurant they were NOT generous. They were stingy.
quote:I'm as comfortable with this as I am with the thought that the guy scanning my groceries is going home without enough money to support his family.
Again, that isn't the same thing. A checker or bagger at a grocery stored is payed the minimum wage required for all employees of any business EXCEPT SERVICE INDUSTRY. Waiters do not make as much as cashiers.
I also agree with everyone that has said that this thread has gone on for far to long. I just can't stop when someone is advocating stiffing servers.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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