posted
I'm seeing a lot of frustrating things these days regarding parenting. In the news, and even in everyday people's opinions, I am seeing a growing blame on the media and advertising for lack of good eating habits in children. I also see these things blamed for lack of good behavior in children. This is absurd.
If you are feeling lazy and don't want to read all of this, now is the time to scroll down and read the last paragraph.
Back in the day, it wasn't considered even remotely damaging to hit a child if he or she were misbehaving, especially in public. This kind of parenting was even encouraged! But now if a parent was seen smacking a kid throwing a temper tantrum, everyone in a ten mile radius would be on the phone with DYFUS.
Why is this? Well basically most people are inclined, when they become parents, to follow the way their parents raised them. And this is pretty much the rule unless there was something that the now parent disagreed with when they were being raised. That something is often using spanking, smacking, and hitting as a form of punishment for bad behavior. Each generation has slowly become less and less brutal with their children until you hardly ever hear of a child being smacked unless they are in a bad situation regarding their parents.
A lot of people view this as progress, but is it really? Because many now-a-days parents even regard any form of punishment as useless and damaging, it is becoming harder and harder to find an acceptable way of diciplining your children. Some believe that things like grounding and denying privilages still work, but it is hard to maintain consistency in those kind of punishments.
Now, it seems, there is less and less belief that children even listen to their parents and that they are more easily swayed by advertising icons and the media. But really this is not true. No matter how many hours of TV a child will watch, the parent will still be a constant presence in their life. This means that the parent really does have a strong influence over the child.
So here's the thing, kids do listen to their parents, and parents should take responsibility of their job. They should dicipline their children, and not expect the TV to do it for them. Moreover, they should not get angry when the TV doesn't do their job for them.
In response to last year's news where Cookie Monster from Sesame Street had to sing a song entitled, "Cookies are a sometimes food," Scott Kurtz, author of PVPonline, responded with "Parenting isn't a sometimes job." And I think that really sums up everything. But what are your opinions? I recognize that I, myself, am not yet a parent so I cannot really speak from a first-hand perspective. I would also like to take this chance to say that I do not condone the beating of children, but I do see the power of a good spanking, especially when the child is young.
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quote:That something is often using spanking, smacking, and hitting as a form of punishment for bad behavior. Each generation has slowly become less and less brutal with their children until you hardly ever hear of a child being smacked unless they are in a bad situation regarding their parents.
A lot of people view this as progress, but is it really?
posted
So, Altariel, I take it you experienced the benefits of smacking? Or do you long to have been backhanded more in public?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I shudder to think of how much more obnoxious I might be had I not taken some serious beatdowns as a kid.
I don't think it's a coincidence that during the course of my lifetime I've seen kids behave noticeably worse when in public.
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posted
Well, you can make the same statement about women, you know. Pain is kind of a universal language. No sense in keeping the love just for children.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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When we took our boy off of sugared and high fructose drinks recently, he complained at first, but quickly complied with our wishes, with no "beat-downs" needed. He has never needed such correction, and I believe that because we demonstrated the respect for him that he deserves, he has reciprocated.
Violence breeds violence. When you beat kids, you just show them that violence is a valid way to get what you want.
And that's a horrible lesson.
Posts: 410 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:That something is often using spanking, smacking, and hitting as a form of punishment for bad behavior. Each generation has slowly become less and less brutal with their children until you hardly ever hear of a child being smacked unless they are in a bad situation regarding their parents.
A lot of people view this as progress, but is it really?
I have yet to be convinced that the pendulum hasn't overswung.
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posted
My parents decided when I was two that they would reserve corporal punishment for occasions on which we had been very, very, very naughty indeed, and even then it would only consist of one or two smacks on the bottom. So I grew up almost entirely without corporal punishment.
I obviously can't speak to how I turned out generally (I'd like to think well, but who wouldn't?); however, my sisters and I were exceptionally well-mannered well-behaved children. I'm not being vain, seriously: waitresses were constantly commenting on it, and sometimes random strangers gave us money in fast food restaurants and told my parents what polite good kids they had.
I would be extremely reluctant to believe that the decline in children's manners (if indeed it is taking place; I've seen dozens of well-mannered children) is related to decreased corporal punishment. I think it just has to do with parents instilling their children with a sense of respect (or not).
And, naturally, no child is polite 100% of the time.
posted
I was a kid who was spanked and beaten as punishment. I separate the two because to me, spanking is with a hand or maybe a lightweight "tool" that causes pain but leaves no physical marks, and beating always used an implement of some form and left welts, bruises, cuts or worse. I especially remember the time that my mother backhanded me across the nape of my neck, allegedly for talking back to her (I don't honestly recall what the cause was, just the effect), and ending up face first into the kitchen faucet with two broken teeth that didn't get seen for days. And despite Mom's insistence to this day that she took me to the dentist the same night, I have classmates that remember me in school unwilling to participate because it was painful to open my mouth and expose the nerves in those teeth to air.
I know that I avoid corporal punishment (thank you, Fyfe! I could NOT remember that term) as much as possible specifically as a result of the way my parents punished my sibs and me. Because my punishments of my kids are verbal or withholding of possessions or priveleges, physical contact is a sign of just how completely and totally pissed off I truly am, and almost always it's because we've graduated through several stages in a very short time. When I grab or slap, they get wise PDQ and immediately do a hermit crab - shut up, emotionally pull into themselves, and do everything they can to not antagonize me any more than they already have.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've had to do this with either child. And the elder Goodlet is now 13.
As for these other kids acting up and being obnoxious in public, I really don't know the answer. Maybe their parents are even less willing than I am to resort to physical means and so they think that it's never going to happen. Maybe they're spanked (or worse) on a regular basis and so it just doesn't mean as much to them when it does happen. All I know is that I count myself extremely fortunate that my kids learned early that Mom's Word Is Law.
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posted
I need a lot more details on exactl what is being punished and how. With my dog, we sometimes have to use negative feedback (spraying him with a water bottle) despite the fact that our training course is supposed to be only positive feedback. Sometimes, what he is doing is so serious and dangerous, he has to learn it as an absolute no (for example, digging and wiggling into places he shouldn't get to and chewing cords). With kids, my husband and I are planning to use time outs a lot and when we teach nursery at church (3 and under), we find this works really well.
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posted
Off-topic: "Cookies Are a Sometimes Food" is a fine song. And actually Hootie the Owl sings it. And Cookie Monster eats cookies at the end of it. Just sayin'.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
A dog is not a human being, and has no capacity for language. You must correct an animal using Pavlovian techniques, as the animal cannot understand.
If the rest of you are salving your guilt over coporal punishment by trying to say that it's okay sometimes, think again.
I can forgive past mistakes done out of momentary passion, but I would not label it "okay".
Posts: 410 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Is it possible that different people learn differently? I've worked with kids a lot, and I'e had to punish kids a lot (never physically), and one of the things I noticed was that what really worked for one kid would completely backfire for another. Now, as I said, this isn't speaking of phyiscally touching them in any way, but I'd imagine that could be applied as well.
As a kid, I was spanked maybe 4 or 5 times. I'll tell you, it wasn't the pain that I hated and that made me do all I could (most of the time) to avoid those spankings. It was the fact that I knew my parents didn't do it on a whim, so when they did, it meant that I did something really very bad. I figure that the reason we punish kids is that they know when they've crossed the line. When I got spanked, I knew that I had just crossed a really big, scary line that I did not want to cross again. And this worked, I think, because my parents only used corporal punishment rarely and in the most severe cases. And I could tell they hated doing it. It was not a pleasant experience for either party. So that's my two cents.
But, ya know, as I said in the beginning, what worked for me very likely will not work for someone else.
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posted
The "trick" to discipline is not the type correction, it is how consistently it is applied. If a behavior will sometimes get a smack and sometimes get no reaction at all and sometimes get the outcome the kid wants (giving in), he will end up a brat. If a behavior constistently gets a reaction that kid doesn't want, the kid will stop doing it.
Children want to be able to make predictions and trust their judgements about the world. When they can't do that, they end up insecure and behave badly. Kids love limits and rules if they can depend on them.
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posted
I can remember being spanked ONCE as a child and I was 4, but my parents never beat me. Sure they man handled me, such as gripping me strongly as they took me aside to say their piece to me if I was being immature.
But to this day I can remember VERY keenly the punishments they prefered. They prefered mental punishment. If you play it right you can get your kids to punish themselves almost EVERY time. The best example I can think of is:
It was my turn to do the dishes but being a child I didnt want to. I argued with my dad and my mom about it after my father realized I was going to be unreasonable he said, "Fine, Ill do the dishes."
My reaction was that of sheer horror. I knew that my father worked very long hours at a job he did not enjoy. I admired him alot. At that moment I insisted that I be allowed to do the dishes and my father responded, "No, I don't even want you to touch MY dishes."
Now I was overcome with guilt, and just wanted to start crying but I didnt want to in front of my father so I fled downstairs. The next time my turn to do the dishes rolled around I was adament about doing them that time.
I remember reading a Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin breaks his fathers binoculars and his father initially screams at him and then see's that Calvin is crying (I had never serious crying in a comic before) and Calvin says, "Ok dad, lets pretend I already feel bad about it, and you don't need to rub it in anymore."
then Calvin in the next strip says, "I felt like I was going to throw up all afternoon!"
My parents could recognize this feeling in me and they could tell if I had punished myself enough, or if they needed to make up the difference. I love the way my parents raised me, I just hope I am clever enough to emulate it.
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posted
Hitting children is a sign of bad parenting. Not because it may be inherently wrong, but because it should be unnecessary. A child who is taught to respect his parents will without violence, and child who is not thus taught will never respect his parents.
Finally, there are children with conditions that must be treated: one cannot beat ADHD out of a child, nor any of the other illnesses which are so destructive. Sometimes one cannot even medicate, but one can always do something to improve the situation, although it will never be ideal (situations never are, and certainly not in family life.)
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I agree with Scott (edit: and kmboots) that lack of consistency is the problem, not lack of corporal punishment. I know parents who use time outs and similar types of punishment to excellent effect and have very well-behaved kids. I know (and have witnessed in public) far more parents who threaten time-outs but dont follow through. Their kids dont take the threats particularly seriously and continue to act up. Im talking about a 5 minute parental monologue along the lines of: Do you want a time-out? Youre going to get a time-out. If you do that one more time youre having a time-out. What did I just say about doing that again youre going to get a time . . . stop that right now or youre going to get a time-out. Do you want a time-out? etc.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
As a mother of two small children I do feel I have some experience in this field.
I think it is possible to raise a well-mannered respectful child with little physical discipline. I reserve spanks for situations when my children are doing something immediately dangerous or extremely naughty, so that they get the message that they need to stop NOW. But I'm not railing on the kids. One quick swat is enough to do it. In no way do I consider this child abuse. It's more the surpise of it that gets to them than the pain. I'm not trying to inflict a lot of pain.
Children learn by reinforcement. I'm a firm believer that more than punishing bad behavior (though it, of course, must be done) there is a greater need to reward good behavior. It's too easy to forget all the good, obedient things kids do and tell them good job or give them a marshmellow for being nice to brother etc. It takes a higher degree of vigilance, which is why I think it doesn't happen enough. I would consider my children very well behaved for their ages. I would like to think this is one of the major reasons why.
The problem with swatting (as I like to put it) is that if the child is being very obstinant or disobedient a certain frustration can arise in the parent making it difficult to restrain yourself from swatting harder than you meant to. Heaven knows my own fanny got tanned in this way. My mom would just cry and say, "I didn't mean to spank you so hard, you just made me so angry!" This is why I tend to use the thump method. If there is a disobedient action going on I ask you to stop, you get a warning in which I tell you what the consequence will be if you don't stop(in this case a thump), I count to three and if you have not complied I flick your head. No matter how angry one gets, you can't ever thump so hard that you felt like you really hurt your child.
Bottom line, parents need to be in control. I don't care if Cookie Monster glorifies the consumption of sugar laden pastries. I said only one cookie, and that's after you finish your sandwich! Cookie Monster isn't here to enforce that one.
My opinion is that striking a child is the laziest form of discipline. It happens because parents don't want to go to all the trouble of using rewards and bargaining with chips that will be motivating to a child. They just want them to stop/shut up/clean up whatever RIGHT NOW.
If you're doing it right, parenting should be by far the hardest job you've ever had. But I think that the idea that you can raise a child without EVER using any form of physical discipline is ridiculous. I daresay that most people who would oppose me don't have any kids.
quote:If the rest of you are salving your guilt over coporal punishment by trying to say that it's okay sometimes, think again.
I can forgive past mistakes done out of momentary passion, but I would not label it "okay".
I think alsost exactly the opposite.
I think that striking a child in anger is a far worse thing than calm corproal punishment.
I don't believe that there is "calm corporal punishment". This is a failure of reason, and a mirror of violence.
I will say this though: I can forgive your past mistake of thinking that it was okay. I'm pretty forgiving.
Posts: 410 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: I know (and have witnessed in public) far more parents who threaten time-outs but dont follow through. Their kids dont take the threats particularly seriously and continue to act up. Im talking about a 5 minute parental monologue along the lines of: Do you want a time-out? Youre going to get a time-out. If you do that one more time youre having a time-out. What did I just say about doing that again youre going to get a time . . . stop that right now or youre going to get a time-out. Do you want a time-out? etc.
That used to drive me crazy when I was running the children's ministry program. Do parent's honestlsy not get that it is far, far easier in the long run to make the effort to be consistent early so later, you will only have to say things once.
And no I don't have kids. I was the oldest of six, though, have a ton of well-behaved nieces and nephews, was an school librarian in an inner city school and ran a religious ed program with over 100 kids. Most of whom I could correct with a raised eyebrow.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Personally, one of the major problems is the fact that in general, parents have grown lazy. There's nothing I hate hearing most than, "Just wait till your father comes home." WTF, mate. Can't the mother deliver her swift justice without the father and assume her position as mother instead of passing the baton to someone else? It irks me even more when even the father will try to do the same exact thing. Blaming it on others instead of assuming responsibility and realizing that parenting is not a part-time job.
EDIT: We were actually discussing the topic in class the other day. It's a little sad how some parents will say, "Ok, let's hear you opinion about the matter," to a 10 year old child. Give me a break, a 10 year-old does not have a right to such an opinion. It's what the parent says and that's that.
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quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: Is it possible that different people learn differently? I've worked with kids a lot, and I'e had to punish kids a lot (never physically), and one of the things I noticed was that what really worked for one kid would completely backfire for another.
Finally, someone with some sense.
-o-
People who throw out absolutes about non-abusive parenting techniques are people with very limited bases for comparison. What your child responded to (if you have even had a child) is not indicative of how all kids respond. Anybody who believes they know the way to raise all children is fooling him- or herself.
I thought I knew a lot about parenting. Then I had kids. I have learned a lot since then.
-o-
Altįriėl, just so you know, I have seen surveys that indicate that the majority of US parents spank (which is not to say that they spank exclusively or all the time, only that there are times when they will do so). I know the perception is otherwise, but that's basically a popular-culture-driven misconception. So I doubt that people will call DSF if they see someone spank a child. Also, I can tell you from multiple training courses I have taken on child abuse and parenting--I wonder how many parenting courses the experts in this thread have taken--that no legal entity in the US considers spanking to be child abuse. A good rule of thumb is that if you bruise a child, you have gone too far. If you leave a mark that lasts for several days, then you have a serious, serious problem.
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posted
I was never once abused or beaten as a child, but I was spanked plenty. You know what, I deserved it almost every time. Spanking speaks clearly to a child. It sends an immediate, firm lesson.
I was pretty well-behaved most of the time, but sometimes I was a real little shit, and I think it was right that I got a smack on the butt now and then. I think I'm a better person as an adult because my parents didn't let me run around like a maniac and act like a jerk.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: I don't believe that there is "calm corporal punishment".
I am going to have to disagree with you quite soundly there. Almost I take offense at it, but not quite. You see, as I said, my parents did use corporal punishment, and they never did it in any way but calmly. One particular day I remember: I had been lying to my mom and cheating on my math tests (homeschooled I was). She found out around 11 and got really upset, but didn't spank me or anything. She cried, which made me feel really bad, but she said she was going to wait for my dad to get home. She of course called him and told him, so he had at least half of the day to stew it over. He came home and gave me some hard spankings. He did not do this in a fit of rage. He did it very calmly, though I could see that it made him sad to have to do it. To imply that he did do it anything but calmly I take as something resembling a slight on my father. My dad is the freakin coolest guy ever. I've seen him express his anger once in 18 years, and that was kicking a trashcan over. It's really kind of crazy how he is always calm cool and collected. It really irks me to have you imply that his punishment of me was anything but a rational logical decision that it was best. I know, there are a lot of people out there who do not operate by the same rules as my dad, but you made a generilzation which made me actually go to the "Full Reply Form".
(just kidding about the mad face. Just a bit annoyed)
Edit: What's so bad about waiting until the Father comes home? In my house, my mom and my dad did not have the same roles as parents. Part of my dads role was "the serious punisher". When we did something that deserved my dad's attention, we knew we'd really screwed up. Are you telling me that was a faulty strategy of my parents? Because it seemed to work pretty decent on me.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think sometimes a spanking is necessary. I don't have any kids, but I firmly believe that a little spanking doesn't hurt a child, and can be a very useful method of discipline, which doesn't teach a child to love violence or anything of the kind.
Young children don't get to debate and bargain everything. No crossing the street by yourself mean NO. It doesn't mean you get to pretend to cross the street a couple times to see if you can get mom and dad to give you a present for being good.
There were times when I was a child that I did things just to get a rise out of my parents. I did things I knew I wasn't supposed to, and did them intentionally. I was testing my limits, seeing what I could get away with. I think all kids do that. A spanking says, "That's your limit, and there's no debate."
Some limits are like that, and I don't think the kid needs to be bribed to be good, or some sort of compromise met. Sometimes you do what you're told, because you're told to, and if you don't you get a spanking.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I don't really want to debate this. I've already said my piece. But I'm going to take a few liberties with your statement before I leave.
Could I say "The use of force is a failure of reason"? We seem to be using the two terms interchangably - my parents using force to punish me, you describing that as violence.
And could I also say "The use of force is a result of the failure of reason"? Because I can agree with that. My parents used force as a direct result of me being a complete idiot. My parents are not guilty of the failure of reason. I am.
Yes, I know, I butchered your statement, but at least now I can say I agree with it, in the context of corporal punishment. You're still making huge generalizations that don't make much sense.
posted
Errr, if it's not true for this subject, then it cannot be generalized. People are disagreeing with that statement in this context. If it is indefensible at this level, it is also not true as a generalization.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Having a child does not make you an expert on children and childrearing. At best, it makes you an expert on your child.
quote:Violence is a failure of reason. Always.
Little children are not always capable of reason.
Sorry for double posting.
Both statements are so true. Children are not just short adults. There was some interesting discussion on the teenage brain thread as well as Scott R's spaceship boy thread about the way a child's brain is different than an adults, and how it can affect their ability to reason.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I think the biggest issue here is that many people don't see a line between spanking and beating. There is a difference, and it's a BIG difference. Spanking a child is not the same as socking a child in the face or causing severe physical trauma. Spanking is not the same as hitting.
When I was in third grade, I went to a summer school for gifted children. It was my one and only experience with the public school system. We wanted to put on "The Elephant's Child" for a play. But we had to change "spanking" in the story to "scolding" because one parent decided that spanking promoted child abuse. To me, that's absurd.
posted
I agree with mph. Pretty much everything he posted in this thread.
You know, Erik, the fact that you and I disagree on whether spanking is ever appropriate does not bother me a whit. The insulting, patronising, I-know-better-than-you-and-no-matter-what-you-say-I-am-absolutely-right attitude you are displaying absolutely disgusts me.
You have ONE child. You are an expert on that child. You are not an expert on any of my children. And given the difference in what works on each of my three kids (one of whom has almost never needed anything beyond mild verbal reminders, and one whose attention sometimes simply cannot be held by anything short of a swat on the bottom), as well as the fact that the methods I use have been arrived at based partly on consulting with a therapist and a pediatrician, I believe I'll just dismiss your pompous rantings in this thread.
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