Because, after reading through a page of b5 quotes, I have begun to believe...
The President Bush is Londo. The Vice President has too many similaritie to Santiago to be comfortable. Rumsfeld reminds me so much of Morden its scarey. And Bester could be Rove.
Honestly, much of the issues shown in the series are important in today's politics. I can't help but picture Sheridan's Incarceration scenes when ever talk of torture and coercive interrogation are discussed.
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I'd rather rabidly reccomend Band of Brothers to anyone who hasn't seen it... this is just a phenomenal series.
Also strong umpteenth's for Babylon 5 (the acting isn't necessarily phenomenal but if you want a series that actually got to complete their arc this is it) I will agree that season 5 is somewhat superfluous, interesting but not necessary. Also, the fact that Bab5 had no less than 4 episodes of pure wrap-up at the end makes me grieve all the more for my other two favorite sci-fi series (see below)
Both of these can be at least partly frustrating because they weren't finished per their plan, and both are at least partly more episodic than you may be looking for:
Firefly
Farscape (i'm astonished that it hasn't been mentioned yet by anyone else) Especially in season 3 and 4 it get's very plot-arc-ish and in my mind is still one of the best television series around. While the ending of season 4 is frustrating, I still maintain that they did a good job tying things up while sucessfully allowing for further development (the miniseries)
Also, Alias, despite it's flaws towards the end was a fascinating show.
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quote:Buffy While I watched this sporatically during its run, that was it--sporatically...
That's similar to my situation. I saw episodes here and there, and wasn't all that impressed. But on the recommendation of others, I neflixed it and really enoyed it. Watching it in order adds a lot to the show.
Angel -- I agree. Don't bother with it until you get to that point in Buffy.
Actually, I must be one of the rare individuals that only watched a handful of Buffy episodes (maybe 15 or so) and then dove straight into Angel since it was on cable every night. I was lost for a bit (Wikipedia and some online FAQs helped a lot) but I ended up enjoying it a lot more than Buffy (after going back and checking out the rest of Buffy).
It could be that its a slightly more mature show [ trades teenage angst for young-twentysomething angst ] and a bit darker (Wesley starts off kind of annoying but becomes a really interesting dark character).
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The X-Files started out great, and then got sucky but "I need to know the ending"-ish. So don't start it unless you're willing to watch 3 seasons of "will they or won't they tell us what the heck is going on" at the end.
Due South was a really great show but Netflix doesn't have it, don't seem interested in getting it, and it's annoying as heck.
I'd recommend Lois and Clark, one of my all-time favorite shows, but it got cut short after season 4 and you have to read seasons 5 and 6 as fanfic if you want any kind of closure.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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The B-5 pilot was mentioned. The T.V. series was great, especially 3-4 seasons. But we will forget that the pilot was ever created. The third and fourth seasons are an example of the best tv that sci-fi has to offer; however, the pilot episode is an example of the worst it has to offer.
How about some suggestions of great TV shows without story arcs? Due South has already been mentioned, so lets add M.A.S.H., Futurama (give it a shot, it's smarter than it seems), and my wife is insisting that I mention Little House on the Prairie--I'm not fond of it, but I guess it isn't that bad.
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The inclusion of Band of Brothers in this listing, reminded me of two things. That most of the TV shows listed here have aired within the past ten years and that there are many great TV miniseries that are older. If you are younger than 30, there’s a good chance you’ve missed some of these, but I guarantee that these are all winners. All are available on DVD. You’ll note that I have a fondness for Masterpiece Theater-type productions, but not all the great miniseries are Brit.
American TV miniseries worth your time:
Roots Should be required viewing. The Stand After the Shawshank Redemption, this '80s mini is the best adaptation of a Stephen King story ever. Sybil Sally Fields as a girl with multiple personalities gives one of the greatest performances you’ll ever see. The Holocaust This 1970’s WWII miniseries gave me nightmares as a kid, but for some reason it looks like this is only available on DVD in Europe. ”V” and V: The Final Battle I believe that these two sci-fi miniseries about an alien invasion from the 80’s remain the highest rated TV minis in history. They can be a bit campy and the SFX are not up to modern standards but they are great fun.
British TV miniseries worth your time:
Pride and Prejudice This is actually and American/Brit co-production, but the A&E version with Colin Firth is the best adaptation of a any book to film ever. I, Claudius Intrigue in Imperial Rome. There can be no excuses to not to watch this. Absolutely incredible show. Gormenghast For you fantasy fans out there. This is an adaptation of the fantasy classic by Mervyn Peake. If you haven’t heard of this, Amazon compares Peake’s books to a combination of Dickens and Tolkien. Bleak House The BBC series production of the Dickens novel starting Gillian Anderson from the X-files is one of the best things I've seen in the past year. Brideshead Revisited My all-time favorite miniseries, I must have watched this at least 20 times.
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I second Coupling. I started to get a little bored of it around season three. It turned too much into a soap opera. But it was very good.
I also want to suggest The Office (BBC original version). It is only 2 seasons and then a Christmas Special (which is two long episodes).
One of the differences between American TV and British TV is the 100 Episode mark you need to make in the American networks to get to syndication. Once syndicated you make lots of money on reruns.
That means it is economically viable to make filler crap shows to boost your show numbers. The BBC doesn't have that. The Office is a very good show that is short, has a nice story arch to season 2 and completely concludes with an awesome ending.
I also loved Freaks and Geeks, Firefly, 24, Six Feet Under, Twin Peaks, X-Files, Lost, and Desperate Housewives.
EDIT: Oh, I can't neglect Buffy and/or Angel!
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Try out Winds of War, it's an older period piece, one of those 'fictional family set in true events' type things--it predates the Work and the Glory books, and if you're a bit of a WWII buff it will hook you right in.
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quote:The Stand After the Shawshank Redemption, this '80s mini is the best adaptation of a Stephen King story ever.
I respectfully disagree with this. First, it was early 90's, not 80's. Second, it was godawful, both as an adaptation and just as a piece of television in its own right.
I know Stephen King wrote the script himself. And I'm not sure what to blame its godawfulness on. Some combination of the limitations of the television format, bad casting (though there was some good casting too) and the time-honored terribleness of its director, Mick Garris, who -- although I'm sure he's a wonderful human being -- is one of the hackiest filmmakers ever to hack.
Sorry, but even now, 12 years later, I'm still upset about the poor quality of 'The Stand.'
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Someone's going to hate me for asking this, but...
...what the hell is Veronica Mars?
Veronica Mars is, essentially, a film noir set in high school (and, starting with the current season, college as well). Each season has one or more major mysteries, along with smaller mysteries that happen within individual episodes. And we're not talking about stolen cell phones and "who kissed who" here: the first season opens with Veronica's best friend recently murdered, and Veronica herself dealing with the aftermath of date rape. The show treads a delicate balance between its frequently dark plotlines and a wry, sarcastic sense of humor. It's also heavily character-driven: Veronica herself is smart, sassy, and capable, but her confidence sometimes gets the best of her, and her experiences have left her with a somewhat bleak "don't get mad, get even" approach to life. The other characters are similarly complex and textured.
As I mentioned, the season-long plot arcs are all meticulously planned in advance- a necessity, I think, given the show's mystery-story structure. That means that it pays to watch this show with your brain on, since half the fun is trying to piece all the clues scattered throughout the season together. Rob Thomas, the show's creator (and incidentally, not THAT Rob Thomas), has said in interviews that his goal is to make the season-long mystery just difficult enough so that about 15% of the audience guesses correctly. In my experience, talking with friends, he's succeeded admirably.
So yes, do check Veronica Mars out. It's one of the smartest shows on TV right now, and it needs the ratings.
quote:I disagree about this in regards to Buffy. Buffy is clearly planned in advance. I enjoyed watching it a second time almost more than the first because of all the little hints.
Joss Whedon has said in interviews that relatively little about Buffy's season-long arcs were planned in advance. Some major plot twists, like Dawn's appearance, were conceived long before they occurred (allowing Joss to stick a few hints in here and there), but by and large, there was little in the way of long-term plotting.
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Talking of Joss Whedon, he guest stared on Veronica Mars last season and is a huge fan of the show. Whedon has declared VM: "Best. Show. Ever."
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quote:But I hate waiting another season for DVDs to come out, and REFUSE to try to watch any more of these shows live (Except maybe 24. All will eventually kneel before 24).
I am currently OBSESSED with 24. My friend lent me his first season DVDs and I devoured them in a week flat. Now I'm netflixing the rest of the seasons and I'm halfway through season 2. This is the first series I've had the patience to netflix because I actually want to watch 2 or 3 (or 4 or 5) episodes in one sitting. I'm planning to catch up by the time season 6 starts in January, and then I'll be held hostage every week with the rest of the sad souls who have to watch it with commercials.
As for other series that I've netflixed and loved, I recommend:
Blackadder II, III, and IV. III and IV are my favorites and because it's a British comedy, there are only 6 episodes per season. Laughed myself silly.
Jeeves and Wooster is also fun, though a little meandering at times. The comedy is great, and if you love Hugh Laurie *looks innocent* you'll really like it.
I'm going to netflix Wonderfalls soon as well as Dead Like Me. Those two seem like fun and quirky series I could get attached to.
Once I'm done with 24, of course.
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quote: Joss Whedon has said in interviews that relatively little about Buffy's season-long arcs were planned in advance. Some major plot twists, like Dawn's appearance, were conceived long before they occurred (allowing Joss to stick a few hints in here and there), but by and large, there was little in the way of long-term plotting.
Interesting to know. I still found it worth a second viewing. Perhaps I was just more able to pick up on things I missed the first time.
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quote:Interesting to know. [Smile] I still found it worth a second viewing. Perhaps I was just more able to pick up on things I missed the first time.
I think what Joss did was throw in a lot of random stuff in his episodes and used that for inspiration for future episodes. It may not have been planned, but the format of the show made it easy to retroactively create story arcs. Plus, having supernatural and super-science themes helped him create connected arcs that might not be possible if reality had to be obeyed.
One example is Spike. He started off as a single story character, but the fan base loved him so much he got developed into a major character in both Buffy and Angel.
Josses flexibility made his story arcs possible, not necessarily his pre-planned story ideas.
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quote: Joss Whedon has said in interviews that relatively little about Buffy's season-long arcs were planned in advance. Some major plot twists, like Dawn's appearance, were conceived long before they occurred (allowing Joss to stick a few hints in here and there), but by and large, there was little in the way of long-term plotting.
Interesting to know. I still found it worth a second viewing. Perhaps I was just more able to pick up on things I missed the first time.
Oh, Buffy's absolutely worth a second viewing. And a third, and a fourth... Despite the impression I may have given here, I'm a huge fan of all things Whedon. He, Sorkin, and Thomas are the Holy Trinity of television, as far as I'm concerned.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Interesting to know. [Smile] I still found it worth a second viewing. Perhaps I was just more able to pick up on things I missed the first time.
I think what Joss did was throw in a lot of random stuff in his episodes and used that for inspiration for future episodes. It may not have been planned, but the format of the show made it easy to retroactively create story arcs. Plus, having supernatural and super-science themes helped him create connected arcs that might not be possible if reality had to be obeyed.
One example is Spike. He started off as a single story character, but the fan base loved him so much he got developed into a major character in both Buffy and Angel.
Josses flexibility made his story arcs possible, not necessarily his pre-planned story ideas.
I think you're absolutely right, but I also think that some shows demand pre-planning. Flexibility is a critical skill for a show like Buffy, which is structured as an actin-adventure. For a show like Veronica Mars, where the mysteries are the whole point of the story, pre-planning is crucial, since the clues from the beginning of the season have to lead somewhere, even if they turn out to be red herrings. It's just the nature of writing a good mystery.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Despite it not being mentioned in this thread, I've somehow ended up watching Millenium.
Without spoilering me, is this show going somwhere? Is it true the story is wrapped up in an episode of X-Files?
Oh, and you're all right about the first season of Babylon 5. I'm having a real hard time getting through it.
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Pretty sure stuff does happen in Millennium....I've only gotten halfway through season 2 in this watching of it. I loved it when it was on tv, though now I don't remember what happens.
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Millenium does end with an episode of X-Files. I remember when it was aired, and they ran a Millenium marathon on FX leading up to it. Those were the only episodes I had ever seen, so I still want to go back and watch all 3 seasons.
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Rome The best show on TV! Deadwood (though I thought the third season was kinda rambling and not as good as the first two) Sopranos (I can only vouch for the first couple of seasons) Six Feet Under (I saw the first couple of seasons, and the last season, the ending couldn't have been more complete or satisfying, IMHO) Oz (Season 1, then it went downhill)
I'd put Carnivale in there, because it was a great show, but the story wasn't really finished when the show was canceled, and to me, the ending was very much NOT satisfying.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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I can second Rome. It grieves me deeply that it is over now. but definitely a good *complete* story arc, epic even. Amazing production values, good writing, and so forth. The really nice thing is that most of the plot twists are actually from history. As in, there is a cast of historical characters and a cast of ahistorical characters. What happens to the historical characters essentially is what really happened, with some time compression and merging of characters to make it fit. Any "plot twists" that occur to the historical characters are really what happened and sometimes even manage to surprise if you weren't paying full attention in Roman History lectures. In some sense, the fun is in how you get there, not what actually happens. (In the same way that Babylon 5 oftens tells you what happens, three, or five seasons in advance but the fun is in how you get there)
There's a lot of confusion as to what constitutes a complete story arc in this thread. My own personal scheme would resemble something like this:
1. Completely non-persistent: Relatively rare, but no plot developments *ever* stay for more than one episode. e.g. maybe children's cartoon shows, Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show 2. Almost totally non-persistent with a few reoccurring characters/gags e.g. Simpsons, Family Guy 3. Organic persistent universe: The story universe is persistent but no plot developments are really thought of beforehand. Any interesting plot developments/characters are carried forward but there is no evidence of a season-by-season or complete plan. e.g. early Stargate SG1, ST:TNG, ST:Voyager, Sliders, early ST:DS9 4. Pretentious planned universe: The storyline teases the audience with what seems to be a complete story arc, but the evidence never materialises or fails completely due to other factors. e.g. The X-Files, Andromeda, EFC 5. Season-by-season planned persistent universe: Plot developments are mostly planned out on a season by season basis. There may be occasional planning that goes on beyond the season, but not dominant: e.g. late Stargate SG1, late ST:DS9, Buffy, Angel, Jeremiah 6. Total complete story arc: Most major plot developments are laid out seasons in advance. Bonus points for actually knowing the ending of the series when starting the series. e.g. Babylon 5, Rome (historical TV shows with a defined time period obviously make this a bit easier)
Now, there are obviously some TV shows that are hard to categorise, especially cancelled or in progress TV shows. BSG might be a 6 or a 5, we do not know yet. Firefly is likely a 5. Heroes hopefully a 6. In addition, some shows are not cut and dry.
The thing is, there is a lot of stuff in this thread which is really just a 2 or 3. Not that there's anything wrong with them, but it seems a bit odd to mention them as having "satisfying complete story arcs". But I'm not going to point any fingers
quote:Originally posted by docmagik: Oh, and you're all right about the first season of Babylon 5. I'm having a real hard time getting through it.
docmagik: I love Babylon 5, so definitely don't give up now. There are two suggestions I can give to make the first season go a bit easier. Some have suggested starting with the movie "In the Beginning" Personally, I think it gives away a smidgen too much, but it does give a glimpse as to the epic nature of the universe. I even have some friends which have only watched it, and still enjoy it a great deal. However, its a much much better introduction than the pilot "The Gathering" which I recommend skipping entirely.
As for the first season itself, the must-see episodes are really only Midnight on the Firing Line, Born to the Purple, The Parliament of Dreams, Mind War, And the Sky Full of Stars, Signs and Portents, the two parts of A Voice in the Wilderness, Babylon Squared, and Chrysalis. The first season is the least plotted of the seasons. The conceit is that they're laying down the foundation for a "United Nations in space" before completely flipping over the sandbox and going for broke. Thus some stories are really just light Star Trek re-treads with a small twist to remind you you're in Babylon 5. The real signature Babylon 5 content comes later.
For sure skip Infection, Believers, Survivors, By Any Means Necessary, TKO, Grail, and Eyes. Infection and TKO are particularly bad.
Later you'll discover a key difference between JMS and Joss Whedon in my mind. While both are great head writers (albeit with very different tone), Joss Whedon is much more of a writing team builder. He's great at forging a cohesive writing team, his stories don't stand out from the others, several good writers come out from his Buffy team to work on Angel and Firefly. JMS does not play well with other writers (and his fights with studio execs are legendary). His episodes stand head and shoulders above the rest of the stories, which end up having drastically different tone. This works well in Babylon 5 since he writes like 80% of it and pretty much all of season three and four. This dynamic is less exaggerated when he moves on to Jeremiah (which is another good show), but its still present.
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I have only watched In The Beginning, and The Gathering back when it was first on. The two episodes after The Gathering put me off, maybe I will give it all another chance.
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Although I agree that one of Joss Whedon's greatest strengths is his ability to forge a fantastic writing team, I have to disagree on one point- I do think his scripts noticeably stand out. While he wrote a few mediocre episodes during Buffy's run ("The Freshman" being the most egregious example), his scripts were almost universally among the best episodes the show ever produced. I mean, look at this list (and it's just the ones off the top of my head):
Hush Once More, With Feeling The Body Innocence Becoming, Parts 1 and II Doppelgangland The Gift When She Was Bad Graduation Day, Parts 1 and II Restless
It helps that Joss tended to write the episodes that broke the usual conventions of the series (the musical, the silent episode, the art-film, etc), but there are quite a few in that list that were, at least in plot and style, fairly standard episodes but for the quality of their scripts. "Innocence," for example, has some pretty shocking plot twists, and runs the audience through the emotional wringer like no episode prior to it, but the look and feel associated with most episodes of Buffy are present in their usual form.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Macguyver. All the way. Complete, satisfying story with interesting caveats along the way. A tear jerker ending that leaves the viewer feeling like everything really will work out in the end. Season's one through four are excellent, getting a little slower as you go. Season's five through seven are much more involved in who Mac is, and less on cool/impossible stuff and mullets. But still very good. A++
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quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: Farscape (i'm astonished that it hasn't been mentioned yet by anyone else) Especially in season 3 and 4 it get's very plot-arc-ish and in my mind is still one of the best television series around. While the ending of season 4 is frustrating, I still maintain that they did a good job tying things up while sucessfully allowing for further development (the miniseries)
I'll third Farscape, and I read through the entire first page waiting for someone to mention it.
I'll also say it again about Babylon 5, it starts off a little rocky, but once it picks up it's amazing, really some of the best TV ever made.
I'm also going to mention Scrubs, it doesn't have much in the way of long-term plot arcs, so it may not be what you're looking for, but the writing, acting, etc. is all good enough to still suck you in and be absorbing for hours on end (at least IMO).
Posts: 187 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I'm a little surprised at how much everybody seems to dislike the 5th season of Babylon5 . Sure, it took a long way to get going, and it lives by no means to the quality of seasons 3 and 4 but I still thought it was better than the first two seasons. The stuff with Londo and Lyta especially near the end was really good. Plus I liked how the whole telepath situation forced Sheridan to choose the morally grey option for a change. (He was always a bit too goody-goody to my tastes.)
Anyway, my favorite American shows are The Sopranos and Twin Peaks of which the Sopranos has a rather good story arcs each season whereas I suppose most people know that Twin Peaks became really bad in the end. Apparently the problem was that the murder of Laura Palmer was never supposed to be resolved, and once Lynch and co were forced to resolve it they didn't really have anything more on which to build their series.
I am currently watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the first time, and just finished the first season a couple of days ago. The first season was okay, there were one or two of really bad episodes but overall it was a fun thing to watch, the best thing about the show probably being the witty banter. Still, it hasn't been Earth-shatteringly good yet, but I expect that to change in future seasons because of the way everybody's always going on about this show. My favorite character is probably Cordelia with Xander being the most annoying. (Seriously, teenage boys aren't that stupid. At least I never was.)
I've also watched the first season of Lost, which is semi-entertaining (and at least promises to have a good story arc) even if it looks like a shampoo commercial. I have to say, I'm much more intrigued about how the Island functions and what it represents than I am of the continuous flashbacks. I mean, some of the flashback scenes were good and touching, but too often they just played like random soap opera.
I second the recommendations for the BBC adaptations of Gormenghast and Bleak House. Gormenghast especially was spectacular - easily my favourite fantasy adaptation of recent years, much better than the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter movies.
My current favourite show is a British sitcom called Green Wing, though to call it a sitcom is a bit of an understatement as it is in a genre completely its own. It's set in a hospital which I suppose draws some comparisons to Scrubs though they are mainly unwarranted seeing as the setting is the only thing Green Wing has in common with Scrubs. Scrubs is the sort of show where doctors treat patients, while Green Wing is more of a show where doctors eat gall bladders, ride camels and accidentally have sex with their mothers. Seriously, it's the best thing to come out of Britain since Monty Python and the Fawlty Towers. Green Wing has two seasons and a Christmas special episode that has as little to do with Christmas as the show has with medicine. It also has an arc of sorts... actually to a show this insane it has a couple of surprisingly moving storylines and the ending of the special episode is downright tragic.
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I actually really enjoyed Earth2. I watched it when it was on in 1995, and bought it last year to watch it again. It is only 1 season, and pretty much wraps everything up. Very sci-fi, and very cool.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Life On Mars just wrapped up and while part of the ending looked very cheesy to me (visually), the ending was very satisfying. It's two seasons long (8 episodes per season) and very entertaining.
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quote:Seriously, teenage boys aren't that stupid. At least I never was.
I sure was.
Hmm... I suppose it's just the whole going-completely-out-of-whack-when-seeing-a-sexually-attractive-person thing that bugs me, because I don't think I've ever been like that. Also when I was a teen I learned to hate the American teen movie cliché of boys being emotionally more immature than girls of their age because I felt that all teenagers were emotionally immature except me. (So okay, in retrospect maybe I had some blind spots.) I guess it's also culture specific, because Cordelia too is an American high school movie cliché yet I never ran into people like her either at my old high school. I mean, there were bullies, both male and female, but they never fit into such easy molds. Also, I don't really know how to put this into words properly, but I think the whole school world in Buffy and in American high school movies in general feels a lot more "gendered" than school in Finland. In that there are certain things boys are supposed to be and certain things girls are supposed to be, and I don't think we have such things here.
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I'm currently watching HBO's Elizabeth I with Helen Mirren and Jeremy Irons. I've made it through half and it's fantastic. But then, I'm a British history nerd.
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] and a bit darker (Wesley starts off kind of annoying but becomes a really interesting dark character).
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