posted
Go see it, first of all. My friend and I both absolutely loved it. I really, really want to talk to some other people who've seen it about some elements (like the drowning thing).
I absolutely loved the story, and I loved the characters. I mean, not that they were good people. I just thought they were such great, complex characters.
posted
I left the theater thinking - what the heck did I just watch? The big reveal at the end --
SPOILERS
-- that Angiers was cloning himself and drowning the clones every time he performed The Transported Man.... I saw that coming from the moment they showed that pile of hats.
I could have loved this movie, but it strings you along and strings you along... And you keep hoping that it's going to pay off in a big way -- and it never does. At least, to me, it didn't pay off. The ending was one huge disappointment after another.
The Christian Bale character... I thought his secret was completely predictable from the moment I realized there was no real magic in this movie.
I kept hoping these secrets would not be the boring, predictable secrets that they turned out to be. But when they *did* turn that way, my reaction was just: Huh. Well that was a waste of time.
See, I do think there were interesting things in this movie. David Bowie playing Tesla, mainly.
And when I say boring... Okay -- Angiers' secret isn't boring in any traditional way. It's a pretty spectacular secret.
What they did with it was boring.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Incredible movie, but I'm not sure it's up to Nolan's other work. There were some gaping plot holes and some unnecessary deviation, to say nothing of the science involved. Why warp Tesla into... that?
Still, it's obvious the focus was on the characters, not the eyecandy setting. I love antiheroes, and I love the way the audience is forced to resent the obvious good guy, and though I haven't really thought out what Nolan was saying (I haven't slept for 36+ hours, midterm week), there's some obvious themes. Duality, obsession, rivalry... The two foils seem to have only one difference, and that's toleration of, what, competition? Rivalry? It's never Bale who initiates an attack on Jackman, and he loves his twin brother. Jackman can't even stand himself as a rival. I'm too wiped to work this into a greater theme, but I'm definitely looking forward to a second viewing this weekend so I can figure out what Nolan's saying.
A big, big thing for Nolan is fear. Every single film he's ever made has centered around some expression of it -- and in this one, I suppose it's fear of, what, trust? Of others? I'm not sure, and I'm way too wiped to figure it out, so I'm just gonna collapse and think about it later.
God, I love this director. I've been a diehard fan since Memento, and I'm kinda proud that I loved him before he was big. I think it gives me a better chance of being his babies' mama than any of you posers have.
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posted
Whoa, just clicked that the Tesla/Edison rivalry's obviously a reflection of the Bale/Jackman rivalry. I refuse to think about what that means until I sleep for at least fifteen straight hours.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Oh, and I was REALLY hoping the blind stage assistants were the ravages of Jackman's machine. I thought with every new copy created, the original burnt out somehow. I'm still kinda disappointed I was wrong, and I'm not sure why Nolan needed to make them so grotesque if they're really so unimportant.
Also, the ending shot was weakened by the fact Jackman just TOLD us that he'd killed every copy of himself. If he'd left it as a surprise, it would've been much, much more powerful. Also, why make a new 400-gallon tank for every body, aside from that it makes for a pretty image? But nothing was particularly rational about this movie. Still good, but with some sloppiness not characteristic of the man.
I'm gonna stop bashing him, now. It's one of the best movies so far this year. I'm still eagerly awaiting Pan's Labyrinth and The Fountain, but this was a great movie. I'm ridiculously happy I got to see it on opening night.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I liked Batman Begins, but otherwise, Nolan's movies have been very... eh... to me. He hasn't done anything particularly original.
He's interesting, and he's good at provoking reactions. That's half the battle, I suppose.
I just wish his movies would go somewhere kind of satisfying... If not on a story-telling level, then at least on an intellectual level. They don't.
Now I'll step away and let everyone else talk, because I know it bothers me when I'm trying to praise something or someone I like, and somebody comes along to play the spoilsport.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
TL, I'm not sure you've really examined Memento or, particularly if you're looking for intellectual stimulation, Insomnia. The latter's basically literature in film form, all revolving around redemption and the blurring between, for lack of a better vocabulary from my sleep-deprived brain, good and evil. It's a gorgeous film, and if you watch it a couple times, it's impossible to miss its thematic undertones.
Memento is a brilliant film, too, and no less complex, but in a different direction that I'll cover later when I can't rest my eyelids on my kneecaps.
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posted
Don't assume that I missed the thematic undertones of his work just because I dislike his work. I get the thematic undertones. They're boring, unoriginal undertones. I understand what he's doing as a filmmaker, I just don't like it.
And I examined Memento plenty. I didn't find it brilliant.
I found it to be overhyped, trite, predictable crap. I've seen backwards storytelling done by more interesting creators and in more interesting ways. I think he got a lot of undeserved credit for taking what is essentially a very old idea and doing it in a medium where people hadn't seen it, tricking folks into thinking he was doing something new.
Just my opinion. It's a well-informed opinion. But that's all it is.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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I didn't see the whole drowning the clones thing as a big surprise. I didn't think it was SUPPOSED to be a big surprise though, so I wasn't disappointed by the fact that it wasn't a really shocking twist. I didn't expect the magic secrets to be amazing, either. Actually, I thought it was really cool that they weren't.
I saw the whole drowning thing...well, the one thing I wanted to know was how many shows he got through before the fiasco went on. Because the first thing I said to my friend when I got out of the theatre was, "Wow...that dude drowned himself a hundred times because of his wife?"
posted
He chose drowning because Cutter (I think that was his name) had told him that drowning was a peaceful way to die. In the end however, he revealed to Angiers that it was, in fact, agony.
I think the real question is, why did Bale's character send Angiers to Tesla? I know he was at the convention where Tesla was showing off his machine, but he never used it in his act. Did he know the pontential behind Tesla's machine? If he did, then he basically handed the machine over to Angiers. If not, I can't understand why he would use Tesla as the codeword for his journal.
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
He used Tesla's machine as backdrop for his transported man trick...I think one time when they showed it, he'd attached a Tesla device up above the two boxes for effect.
I still think he chose drowning because of his wife. 'cause he was kinda trying to drown himself in the sink after she died. Well, maybe not drown. But you know what I mean.
posted
Oh, I agree that his wife was probably the main reason, but wouldn't it help that someone had told you drowning is a peaceful way to die? If I was making clones of myself that I knew had to die instantly, I wouldn't want them to suffer.
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I dunno. I'm not entirely certain he believed that drowning was a peaceful way to die. I think he was trying to punish himself (and Christian Bale, obviously) maybe for letting the obsession get so far in addition to his wife's death.
I love the performances. I love the look of the film.
But there are -so- many plot holes, coincidences, and contrivances piled on in order for the story to work.
Like police existing, but apparently only getting notified of one crime out of the many, MANY public crimes that take place.
Lots of cool stuff, to be sure. But also a lot of cheese.
I give it a qualified thumbs up. See it if one is in the mood for creepy, stylish thrills without wanting to puzzle over the Rube Goldberg devices that drive the story. Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I want to know why, in the last performance Christian Bale ruins it by actually witnessing Angiers kill himself, why didn't the new clone continue on with the show? The fact that he didn't is what kept his secret safe. But the plan was for the new clone to present himself moments after the cloning. How could he have known not to continue?
Even if it was because Christian Bale starting his screaming, it would have taken him awhile to realize that Angiers really couldn't get out. The new clone should have continued by then. I just don't get it.
I liked the movie. Made me think more than most of the movies I've seen lately have. But there are other questions that are kind of eating at me too.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
It wasn't the new clones presenting themselves, it was Angiers. Remember his obsession about wanting to be the guy who gets the applause? My assumption was that the real Angiers did most of the show, and then switched with a clone for the final trick. It's a clone walking into the water tank, not the real Angiers. The real Angiers is the guy who appears on the balcony. (the new clone appears somewhere else)
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posted
No, I thought that each night, Angiers himself stepped into the machine and cloned himself. One of the two drowned, and the other came out for the applause. Because there was a part at the end where he talked about how terrifying it was to not know if he was going to be the "man in the box."
posted
...upon thinking about it, Christian Bale's two characters were just as cruel as Jackman's. They loved their secret so much, more than the woman one of them claimed to love...even though it was destroying her emotional and mental health.
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posted
TL mentions that the secrets weren't all that amazing, but I think that that's the point. Michael Caine's character even says at the beginning that you wouldn't really want to know the secret, and several times throughout the movie various characters talk about the secret of the trick being dissappointing or a let-down.
So, I think complaining that there wasn't a big reveal, or that a reveal wasn't all that satisfying, is kind of ignoring the(a) point of the movie.
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:TL mentions that the secrets weren't all that amazing, but I think that that's the point. Michael Caine's character even says at the beginning that you wouldn't really want to know the secret, and several times throughout the movie various characters talk about the secret of the trick being dissappointing or a let-down.
So, I think complaining that there wasn't a big reveal, or that a reveal wasn't all that satisfying, is kind of ignoring the(a) point of the movie.
I should be satisfied specifically because the creator of the film wanted me to walk away dissatisfied? Makes no sense.
If he wanted me to be satisfied, he failed.
If he wanted me to be dissatisfied, he succeeded.
Whether or not he had it in mind all along doesn't change the fact. And so the end result? Is exactly the same.
posted
One thing: didn't Michael Caine know all along how the transporting machine worked? Didn't he know that Hugh Jackman was cloning himself and then drowning the clone? Why was he suprised when he saw him alive at the end?
Also, when the machine cloned the person, wouldn't it be the clone that would get transported elsewhere and the original guy would be the one who drowns? When he first used the machine on himself and he shot his clone with the gun it seemed like it was the original that stayed in the same spot.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TL: It wasn't the new clones presenting themselves, it was Angiers. Remember his obsession about wanting to be the guy who gets the applause? My assumption was that the real Angiers did most of the show, and then switched with a clone for the final trick. It's a clone walking into the water tank, not the real Angiers. The real Angiers is the guy who appears on the balcony. (the new clone appears somewhere else)
That argument doesn't really seem to hold water, because whether it was him or the clone, it was ALWAYS him. They were the same person. By the time he'd done 100 shows, 100 clones had been killed, the original Angiers gone long ago.
At least that's how it seemed to me. The orginal stayed. The clone was the new one.
But even if it was the other way around, that doesn't answer my question, which was, how did the transported person know not to continue with the show on the final night?
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posted
Also, the concept of reproducing yourself and then disposing of your old self reminded me of a short story by OSC. The one where the fat guy keeps reproducing himself as a skinny guy and then the skinny guy goes off and gorges himself until he repeats the process. But the replaced fat guys go off this farm where they get treated like slaves. Anybody remember the name of this story?
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posted
"how did the transported person know not to continue with the show on the final night?"
I think it was Angiers' plan to frame Bale and since the person that would appear on the balcony, whether it be the clone or the original, knew that Bale would try to figure out the machine that night and didn't show hismelf so Bale could be accused of murder.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I think the real question is, why did Bale's character send Angiers to Tesla? I know he was at the convention where Tesla was showing off his machine, but he never used it in his act. Did he know the pontential behind Tesla's machine? If he did, then he basically handed the machine over to Angiers. If not, I can't understand why he would use Tesla as the codeword for his journal.
I still haven't come up with a satisfying answer to these questions yet either.
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Yeah, that's why it's quoted. I didn't want to have to make people find my first post to know what I was talking about.
I think Angiers must have had some kind of signal to tell the clone when to continue the show. What if the trap door had gotten stuck? It wouldn't make sense to have no precautions just in case something did go wrong, and you have two Angiers in the same theater.
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pH: He used Tesla's machine as backdrop for his transported man trick...I think one time when they showed it, he'd attached a Tesla device up above the two boxes for effect.
posted
Wouldn't Tesla have told Angiers that he never gave his machine to Bale? And did Angiers ever actually assume that he could pull off the trick because Bale cloned himself?
"I think Angiers must have had some kind of signal to tell the clone when to continue the show."
He is drowning, how can he signal to the clone to continue? I think we're pulling answers out of nowhere now, if he did have a signal they would've at least mentioned it in the movie.
And can anyone answer: didn't Michael Caine know all along how the transporting machine worked? Didn't he know that Hugh Jackman was cloning himself and then drowning the clone? Why was he suprised when he saw him alive at the end?
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posted
So why did Borden need to find out how Angiers was doing the trick? Once he saw Tesla's machine, he would, or should have naturally assumed that Tesla had succeeded and that the joke was on him for tipping Angiers off.
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Wouldn't Tesla have told Angiers that he never gave his machine to Bale? And did Angiers ever actually assume that he could pull off the trick because Bale cloned himself?
"I think Angiers must have had some kind of signal to tell the clone when to continue the show."
He is drowning, how can he signal to the clone to continue? I think we're pulling answers out of nowhere now, if he did have a signal they would've at least mentioned it in the movie.
And can anyone answer: didn't Michael Caine know all along how the transporting machine worked? Didn't he know that Hugh Jackman was cloning himself and then drowning the clone? Why was he suprised when he saw him alive at the end?
I didn't mean to say that Angiers himself gave the signal. Maybe Cutter knew how the machine worked and he gave the signal? That would answer both questions wouldn't it?
Edit: Sorry for the double post.
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
This was my impression: he wanted to go see how Angiers was doing the trick because I don't think Borden ever INTENDED to clone himself or to use the machine for anything more than effect. So he was like, "Whoa, what?"
I also didn't think Caine had any idea because remember, Angiers told him that he had to be up front, that he wasn't allowed backstage. And the blind stagehands couldn't see what was happening.
quote:Originally posted by pH: This was my impression: he wanted to go see how Angiers was doing the trick because I don't think Borden ever INTENDED to clone himself or to use the machine for anything more than effect. So he was like, "Whoa, what?"
I also didn't think Caine had any idea because remember, Angiers told him that he had to be up front, that he wasn't allowed backstage. And the blind stagehands couldn't see what was happening.
-pH
Oh. Good call.
One more question. Do we know which Borden died? Did the little girl end up with her Father or her Uncle?
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posted
Her father I think. He was the Borden that loved her. That was a good movie. Except did they have to keep smashing those birds?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Why couldn't Angiers just use the first clone he made to do the teleporting act with him, and never use the machine again? It would have had the same effect if the clone fell through the trapdoor and the original came out on the balcony. He could completely trust his clone to want revenge on Borden also, unlike the drunk actor they had before.
Posts: 290 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Youth ap Orem: Why couldn't Angiers just use the first clone he made to do the teleporting act with him, and never use the machine again? It would have had the same effect if the clone fell through the trapdoor and the original came out on the balcony. He could completely trust his clone to want revenge on Borden also, unlike the drunk actor they had before.
Unlike Borden, who grew up with his twin, and is shown to have a very loving relationship with him (indeed, the only close relationship he ever has), Angier only meets his twin for the first time as an adult, already estranged from everyone he ever cared about because of his vendetta. He's completely emotionally incapable of closeness at that point, to say nothing of trust. And also, don't forget that Angier is the consummate showman. He can't stand the idea of somebody else taking the bows on stage. I suspect this would hold even if it were his twin, and furthermore that he is quite self-aware about his own unwillingness to share credit, even with someone who is essentially himself. That's why he purposely placed the gun where he could reach it.
Also, this isn't a case of a clone and an original- both Angiers are the original. He isn't duplicated; he's split in two. Remember that he says that he never knew which Angier he would be after the transportation, the one in the tank or the Prestige. He went with the drowning death, not just because of its parallels with the death of his wife, but also because he believes, based on Cutter's words, that it is a relatively peaceful death. Not ever having actually been there to watch his twin die (as he's always occupied with finishing the Prestige), he doesn't know that it's actually agonizing until Cutter tells him so near the end.
Anyway, I really loved this film. Steam-punk fantasy that sets up the dominos and knocks them down. Definitely the kind of movie worth watching a second time. And unlike most "twist" movies (*cough cough* M. Night Shyamalan), the clues dropped throughout the film actually pan out in the end, so that it's not so much about shocking the audience with an unforeseen plot development as much as confirming what an attentive audience should have already guessed based on the clues they were given.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I figure Angiers recognized Borden when he came up to inspect the machine that last night. Since Angiers hadn't cloned himself yet, the "clone" would remeber seeing Borden and realize that this was the night that Angiers was supposed to be "murdered."
I think Cutter believed that the machine actually teleported Angiers. He didn't realize it cloned him.
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ginol_Enam: I figure Angiers recognized Borden when he came up to inspect the machine that last night. Since Angiers hadn't cloned himself yet, the "clone" would remeber seeing Borden and realize that this was the night that Angiers was supposed to be "murdered."
I think Cutter believed that the machine actually teleported Angiers. He didn't realize it cloned him.
I also got the feeling that Angier noticed Borden coming on stage, and was counting on it to happen eventually. Although I don't think it mattered whether the twin in the tank realized Borden was there or not. That Angier wanted to escape, was desperate to escape, like he is every night. That's what is so horrifying about Angier's trick... he deliberately commits suicide every single night.
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posted
I don't agree with the "split in two" assertion, though it might just be a matter of semantics. There was no signalling necessary because the second Angier wasn't a "clone", he was an exact duplicate, whether instantly created atom for atom or wheter pulled from a parallel universe, we aren't told and no one even goes so far as to conjecture. Also we aren't told if the "original" is transported, but a duplicate appears in place of the original, or if the duplicate is created elsewhere and the original left intact. These are purely philosophical questions anyway, and it's unlikely anyone in the film could have given a definitive answer anyway. Regardless, at the moment of creation there are two of the exact same person in our universe at the same time. They would have had the same memories, experiences, attitudes, desires, obsessions, etc. The crux of the "problem" is that this duplicity only lasts for a split second, ever after these two beings are different people with different experiences. Angiers realized this before he did the first duplication, and that is why he prepared the gun. He did not want to share the limelight, even with as near a duplicate as possible, because he knew that the instant after duplication each Angier would be someone else to the other one.
At the first duplication, there were two identical Angiers, but immediately they began to be separate people (i.e. one was someone who had a gun pointed at him and the other was not.) So in my opinion that first event was murder, not suicide. The subsequent "disposals" were arguably suicide since the Angier who drown would have known it was coming and agreed to participate in the trick anyway. It was more palatable to Angiers that he drown than that he live as the man in the box. And in one view, the Angier who got the applause was the only one left after the trick anyway.
Angiers was so obsessed with the trick and with wanting to be both performer and receiver of appause, that he couldn't bear the thought of having a double. And he had learned already that a "double" couldn't be trusted as soon as he realized he was necessary. Therefore he was willing to die every night so that he could live every night in the limelight as a unique being.
Does your head hurt now?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I think Cutter believed that the machine actually teleported Angiers. He didn't realize it cloned him.
I don't think Cutter had to have believed the machine was anything but smoke and mirrors. To his mind, anyway, there was probably a trick to it that he simply couldn't guess, and he was probably at least a little hurt that Angier didn't trust him with it. That's why he was surprised to see Angier alive. He probably though somehow Angier dropped below stage and got to the balcony very quickly, (or was using a double as before), and thought the drowning only happened on the night Borden was arrested for murder. Remember, he was a man who didn't believe in "real" magic. Everything was a simple trick dressed up, and the art was in the dressing, not in the trick itself.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: I don't agree with the "split in two" assertion, though it might just be a matter of semantics. There was no signalling necessary because the second Angier wasn't a "clone", he was an exact duplicate, whether instantly created atom for atom or wheter pulled from a parallel universe, we aren't told and no one even goes so far as to conjecture. Also we aren't told if the "original" is transported, but a duplicate appears in place of the original, or if the duplicate is created elsewhere and the original left intact. These are purely philosophical questions anyway, and it's unlikely anyone in the film could have given a definitive answer anyway. Regardless, at the moment of creation there are two of the exact same person in our universe at the same time. They would have had the same memories, experiences, attitudes, desires, obsessions, etc. The crux of the "problem" is that this duplicity only lasts for a split second, ever after these two beings are different people with different experiences. Angiers realized this before he did the first duplication, and that is why he prepared the gun. He did not want to share the limelight, even with as near a duplicate as possible, because he knew that the instant after duplication each Angier would be someone else to the other one.
At the first duplication, there were two identical Angiers, but immediately they began to be separate people (i.e. one was someone who had a gun pointed at him and the other was not.) So in my opinion that first event was murder, not suicide. The subsequent "disposals" were arguably suicide since the Angier who drown would have known it was coming and agreed to participate in the trick anyway. It was more palatable to Angiers that he drown than that he live as the man in the box. And in one view, the Angier who got the applause was the only one left after the trick anyway.
Angiers was so obsessed with the trick and with wanting to be both performer and receiver of appause, that he couldn't bear the thought of having a double. And he had learned already that a "double" couldn't be trusted as soon as he realized he was necessary. Therefore he was willing to die every night so that he could live every night in the limelight as a unique being.
Does your head hurt now?
That's actually exactly what I was trying to say, only you articulated it much better than I did. I wasn't trying to suggest that the film makes explicit some metaphysical point about one person inhabiting two bodies or anything. My point was simply that the two Angiers are identical (at least at the moment of duplication), so that it is impossible say which one is the "original" and which one is the "clone." Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because like you said, their lives diverge from the moment of duplication and neither one is willing to trust the other, nor share the limelight even for a moment.
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posted
Karl: You're absolutely right in your "head hurt now" post.
About Cutter though... He states straight up more than once that the machine is "real magic!" He really and truely thinks he's being transported. IMHO anyway.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Are you sure that those times aren't in scenes that chronologically take place during/after the trial, but appear earlier in the sequence of the movie?
Actually, if I remember correctly one scene is particular is when he is talking about the disposal of Angier's things to the proxy buyer, but that supports your view more than mine because he didn't know Angier was the buyer at that time. But thinking back, I got the impression that he knew in *that* scene exactly how dangerous the machine was when in fact he wouldn't have until knowing Angier was still alive. I think that might be a discontinuity in the movie. I'll have to see it again. I want to, anyway, because I saw it in an old theater and the projection was terrible.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
The excuse of wanting the limelight just doesn't seem to work for me. Angiers obsession with revenge was stronger than his want for the audiences adoration and applause. In fact he was willing to let the actor, Root finish every show when they were working together, even after Root started giving his demands. It was only after Borden actually took Root's place in the show that Angiers injured his leg did their arrangement end.
An exact duplicate of Angiers, even changed from the moment of duplication. Would still have the same past, with the same obsession with revenge. An arrangement made with the two where they took turns being the one finishing the show would have been a better deal than the one he had with Root. Plus, they could trust each other because they knew that the want for revenge was stronger than anything else in both of them.
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posted
Clearly not. Angiers says (in internal monologue) that he "could not live like that", meaning with a duplicate of himself in the world, which is why he prepared the gun for his first test in the machine. Also, his very actions in the movie show that he did not feel he could trust his other "self" to remain faithful.
In other words, he knew he did not want to share his world with a duplicate, and therefore his duplicate would not want to share the world with him. That is why he set up the trick in such a way that by the time a duplicate was made, one of them would be in the tank with no way to change his mind.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
"Clearly not. Angiers says (in internal monologue) that he "could not live like that""
I wasn't really listening to the internal monologue, but I took it to mean that if the experiment went wrong and Angiers was deformed or something he had the gun to kill himself because he "could not live like that". What else did he say in the monologue that indicated that Angiers was talking about a possible clone?
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