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Author Topic: Q/A with Judaism.
Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:

Honestly, get to know us. We're not so bad. [/QB]

Trying to [Big Grin]

Too bad Shmuel doesn't seem to want to play. If you want people to understand you and your religion, you are going to have to talk to them, not down to them. Wasn't that the whole point of this thread?

Armoth, I am enjoying this, please continue if you feel like it.

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Armoth
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Win, I appreciate your tone in your last post. Made me feel comfortable in engaging in discussion with you.

As was said above, the literal translation of "goy" is nation, and saying that someone is a goy means they are a member of a nation other than Israel.

Calling a non-Jew a goy would not be bad. I'm not even sure a Muslim would know what it meant if he were called a goy. Perhaps the only time calling someone a goy would be bad is if you called a Jew a "goy."

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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Perhaps the only time calling someone a goy would be bad is if you called a Jew a "goy." [/QB]

Interesting that you pointed that out as I just read something about Mormons using the word "Gentile" to mean all non-members of the church, including Jews.
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
I've started a new thread for this, so that we don't have to worry about getting this one locked. What I hope is that if anyone wants to respond to something on the subject, they can write their response, but instead of cliking "Add Reply" here, copy the contents of this textbox and paste it into the textbox on the other thread, so that this whole thing gets moved over.

Antisemitism thread

While I'd prefer not to have this thread locked, for the time being, I'd prefer not to have this conversation framed in terms of anti-semitism. At least, not with Wingracer.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
As was said above, the literal translation of "goy" is nation, and saying that someone is a goy means they are a member of a nation other than Israel.

Would that include Jews who are not Israeli?
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.

Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.

I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.

One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.

There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.

I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like.

In no way do I believe any group of human beings is "evil." I suspect that Jews have unhealthy attitudes towards non-Jews, and that the tribal behavior of Jews has throughout history inevitably provoked tribalism in others. I suspect this tribalism stems from the usury laws and others that, in effect, say Jews should consider members of their tribe to be more deserving of humane treatment and consideration.
Two people needed a transplant, one is a stranger, the other is your brother. You can only pay for one. They are equal in all senses. Same age, gender, same religion, same moral valuableness (if you can define that), would you flip a coin? Or would you give to your brother? How about if they were unequal in some ways? Would you not still consider giving to your brother?[/QB]
Two people need a transplant. One is a Jew and the other is a white person of Northern European background. Another person of the same background as the European decides to give the transplant to his fellow White on the basis of racial kindship/tribalism. Would you as a Jew be understanding and forgiving of that?
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
As was said above, the literal translation of "goy" is nation, and saying that someone is a goy means they are a member of a nation other than Israel.

Would that include Jews who are not Israeli?
No. I was using the term Israel to be more correct. Judaism is the name for the religion practiced by the tribe of Judah, 1/12th of the original nation of Israel. I realize that's confusing as Israel is also the name for the culture.

There is no difference in religious identity between a Jew who is a citizen of Israel and Jew who is not.

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.

Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.

I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.

One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.

There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.

I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like.

In no way do I believe any group of human beings is "evil." I suspect that Jews have unhealthy attitudes towards non-Jews, and that the tribal behavior of Jews has throughout history inevitably provoked tribalism in others. I suspect this tribalism stems from the usury laws and others that, in effect, say Jews should consider members of their tribe to be more deserving of humane treatment and consideration.
Two people needed a transplant, one is a stranger, the other is your brother. You can only pay for one. They are equal in all senses. Same age, gender, same religion, same moral valuableness (if you can define that), would you flip a coin? Or would you give to your brother? How about if they were unequal in some ways? Would you not still consider giving to your brother?
Two people need a transplant. One is a Jew and the other is a white person of Northern European background. Another person of the same background as the European decides to give the transplant to his fellow White on the basis of racial kindship/tribalism. Would you as a Jew be understanding and forgiving of that? [/QB]
Completely and totally. To the extent to which he identifies with that person more than the Jew, and to the extent to which he does not believe in Judaism, I'd argue that it is morally valuable.
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
How about this one: isn't the Jewish law that says it's okay to practice usury upon non-Jews, but not among Jews, kind of sickening? Doesn't that effectively mean "it's okay to exploit non-Jews but not your fellow Jews"? Is it possible that this sort of behavior has historically provoked anti-semitism amongst people who hosted Jews?

There's no Jewish law that says anything of the sort. Jewish law says that we can charge non-Jews interest. Period. Something that most people find entirely normal in society. We're specifically prohibited from charging one another interest, or paying it to one another. What does that have to do with you?
That's the point--this law facilitates an exploitative attitude towards non-Jews. Whereas Christians forbid usury in principle, Jews forbid it only amongst themselves and think it fine to practice it on non-Jews. The reason usury is forbidden is, I gather, not arbitrary but because it brings about unpleasantness. It's okay in Jewish law to inflict that unpleasantness on non-Jews.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
As was said above, the literal translation of "goy" is nation, and saying that someone is a goy means they are a member of a nation other than Israel.

Would that include Jews who are not Israeli?
No. I was using the term Israel to be more correct. Judaism is the name for the religion practiced by the tribe of Judah, 1/12th of the original nation of Israel. I realize that's confusing as Israel is also the name for the culture.

There is no difference in religious identity between a Jew who is a citizen of Israel and Jew who is not.

Excellent, thank you. That is what I thought but wanted to be sure.
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.

Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.

I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.

One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.

There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.

I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like.

In no way do I believe any group of human beings is "evil." I suspect that Jews have unhealthy attitudes towards non-Jews, and that the tribal behavior of Jews has throughout history inevitably provoked tribalism in others. I suspect this tribalism stems from the usury laws and others that, in effect, say Jews should consider members of their tribe to be more deserving of humane treatment and consideration.
Two people needed a transplant, one is a stranger, the other is your brother. You can only pay for one. They are equal in all senses. Same age, gender, same religion, same moral valuableness (if you can define that), would you flip a coin? Or would you give to your brother? How about if they were unequal in some ways? Would you not still consider giving to your brother?
Two people need a transplant. One is a Jew and the other is a white person of Northern European background. Another person of the same background as the European decides to give the transplant to his fellow White on the basis of racial kindship/tribalism. Would you as a Jew be understanding and forgiving of that?
Completely and totally. To the extent to which he identifies with that person more than the Jew, and to the extent to which he does not believe in Judaism, I'd argue that it is morally valuable. [/QB]
You wouldn't consider him an anti-semite for making that decision?
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.

Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.

I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.

One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.

There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.

I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like.

In no way do I believe any group of human beings is "evil." I suspect that Jews have unhealthy attitudes towards non-Jews, and that the tribal behavior of Jews has throughout history inevitably provoked tribalism in others. I suspect this tribalism stems from the usury laws and others that, in effect, say Jews should consider members of their tribe to be more deserving of humane treatment and consideration.
Two people needed a transplant, one is a stranger, the other is your brother. You can only pay for one. They are equal in all senses. Same age, gender, same religion, same moral valuableness (if you can define that), would you flip a coin? Or would you give to your brother? How about if they were unequal in some ways? Would you not still consider giving to your brother?
Two people need a transplant. One is a Jew and the other is a white person of Northern European background. Another person of the same background as the European decides to give the transplant to his fellow White on the basis of racial kindship/tribalism. Would you as a Jew be understanding and forgiving of that?
Completely and totally. To the extent to which he identifies with that person more than the Jew, and to the extent to which he does not believe in Judaism, I'd argue that it is morally valuable.
You wouldn't consider him an anti-semite for making that decision? [/QB]
Correct. I would not consider him an anti-semite for making that decision. And again, to the extent to which he does not believe in Judaism, I believe his decision to be morally valuable.
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Sa'eed
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Follow your logic, Amroth. Would it be okay for white americans to decide to prefer only people like themselves in immigration policy? They used to do that, you know, from the 20s to the 60s and Jews weren't very understanding of that tribal behavior.
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
How about this one: isn't the Jewish law that says it's okay to practice usury upon non-Jews, but not among Jews, kind of sickening? Doesn't that effectively mean "it's okay to exploit non-Jews but not your fellow Jews"? Is it possible that this sort of behavior has historically provoked anti-semitism amongst people who hosted Jews?

There's no Jewish law that says anything of the sort. Jewish law says that we can charge non-Jews interest. Period. Something that most people find entirely normal in society. We're specifically prohibited from charging one another interest, or paying it to one another. What does that have to do with you?
That's the point--this law facilitates an exploitative attitude towards non-Jews. Whereas Christians forbid usury in principle, Jews forbid it only amongst themselves and think it fine to practice it on non-Jews. The reason usury is forbidden is, I gather, not arbitrary but because it brings about unpleasantness. It's okay in Jewish law to inflict that unpleasantness on non-Jews.
Not at all. Which is why we went through the exercise of discussing whether or not money-lending is morally abhorrent. You can't subject someone to unpleasantness if they have to agree to BE subject to it. And as I said, renting money is a service and you should be paid for it.

Jews cannot lend to other Jews for reasons of kinship.

And also note, Christians did not derive this law on their own. They took it from....Judaism. And to the extent to which it was meant to foster kinship among Christians, I suppose that is a good thing for them.

Note this: It is not only forbidden for Jews to lend with interest, it is forbidden for a Jew to BORROW from another Jew with interest. Isn't that fascinating? You can be punished for BORROWING from another Jew with interest, even if it is your own choice!

Again, the idea is that the prohibition is meant to foster kinship. Not because moneylending is evil. Christians could have leveled a decree that you are also forbidden to borrow with interest, rendering Jewish money-lending impossible. But that didn't happen.

I hope you can see this perspective.

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Follow your logic, Amroth. Would it be okay for white americans to decide to prefer only people like themselves in immigration policy? They used to do that, you know, from the 20s to the 60s and Jews weren't very understanding of that tribal behavior.

It depends on what you are making decisions about. If you are building a nation on cultural identity, then don't let in people who don't fit. But that's not what America is founded on. Our nation is not built on cultural identity.

To the extent to which building kinship is morally valuable, then build kinship. To the extent to which it is not, then don't.

This nation decided to build kinship around ideals that didn't include race.

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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Follow your logic, Amroth. Would it be okay for white americans to decide to prefer only people like themselves in immigration policy? They used to do that, you know, from the 20s to the 60s and Jews weren't very understanding of that tribal behavior.

It depends on what you are making decisions about. If you are building a nation on cultural identity, then don't let in people who don't fit. But that's not what America is founded on. Our nation is not built on cultural identity.
The very legal philosophy which America was founded on allowed the overwhelmingly majority in this country in 1924 to legally implement a restrictive immigration policy with the aim of keeping Jews and non-Northern Europeans out of this country. It was an act of tribalism carried out by those who were descendant from the founding stock of this nation. The issue isn't that the country wasn't built on a specific cultural identity but that by the 20s a cultural identity had developed which congress felt deserved to be protected. But Jews weren't very understanding of this even though in theory they should be considering their tribal ways.
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Armoth
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I don't understand the argument.

Can you demonstrate that it was an act of triablism carried out by those who were descendant from the founding stock of this nation, and not, indeed, anti-semitism? Realize that there are Jews amongst the founding stock of this nation, albeit, not a large number, but they were there.

Also realize that American anti-semitism was rampant at the time.

And again, my argument isn't that "tribalism is cool" - it's cool when it has a specific purpose.

Kinship is important to build when your kin forms a productive unit. It is important to focus on the homefront before looking outward.

Helping your fellow co-worker, your family, may be more valuable than helping your fellow blonde, or your fellow yankee-fan.

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Wingracer
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Hey Armoth, since you have been kind enough to talk to me, could you please explain what I did to suddenly get branded antisemitic? I honestly don't know.

I know I was asking essentially for clarification on something that Sa'eed said and I knew that might stir up some trouble (though that was not my intention) but this seems a bit extreme to me.

I would greatly appreciate an explanation and since my accusers are refusing to explain themselves, perhaps you could help.

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
Hey Armoth, since you have been kind enough to talk to me, could you please explain what I did to suddenly get branded antisemitic? I honestly don't know.

I know I was asking essentially for clarification on something that Sa'eed said and I knew that might stir up some trouble (though that was not my intention) but this seems a bit extreme to me.

I would greatly appreciate an explanation and since my accusers are refusing to explain themselves, perhaps you could help.

I'm not sure why I'm being asked to defend Lisa and Shmuel. Is it because we're all Jewish?

I think they're wrong, and I hope they apologize or explain themselves.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Too bad Shmuel doesn't seem to want to play. If you want people to understand you and your religion, you are going to have to talk to them, not down to them. Wasn't that the whole point of this thread?
It is the whole point of the thread, a point which Sa'eed is transparently abusing. Your discussions might benefit from recognition of this instead of treating him like another well-meaning inquirer. It leads to you getting some splash from him.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It is the whole point of the thread, a point which Sa'eed is transparently abusing. Your discussions might benefit from recognition of this instead of treating him like another well-meaning inquirer. It leads to you getting some splash from him. [/QB]

I guess I should have made it clear that I wasn't agreeing with him but still wanted to discuss a point he made.

Sorry for being an objective outsider. My best friend in grade school was a Jew, I have had some wonderful discussions about life with a couple of Muslim friends and one of the smartest (and most dangerous) men I have ever known is a Buddhist so I tend to see all sides.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
How did I miss this thread?

Okay. Good questions that should be answered:

1) Jews have disparaging names for non-Jews.

Not true. Goyim, as mentioned above, means nations. The word goy is used to refer to the Jewish nation as well. It is colloquially used to refer to a non-Jew, as in, "he is a goy" - or a non-Jew.

If someone uses it disparagingly, it is morally abhorrent. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Judaism if someone uses the word "goy" in a disparaging way, and only to do with racism and stupidity, which some rare Jews are capable of.

To note: That goy/goyim can be (and is) used disparagingly is about the person using the word that way, not about the word itself. People use "Jew" and "Black" (etc) disparagingly but it doesn't demonstrate that the word is pejorative rather than descriptive. Not until it crosses a threshold where people begin to stop using the word non-disparagingly because it is taken to easily as an insult due to its disparaging use.
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I don't understand the argument.

Can you demonstrate that it was an act of triablism carried out by those who were descendant from the founding stock of this nation, and not, indeed, anti-semitism? Realize that there are Jews amongst the founding stock of this nation, albeit, not a large number, but they were there.

Also realize that American anti-semitism was rampant at the time.

And again, my argument isn't that "tribalism is cool" - it's cool when it has a specific purpose.

Kinship is important to build when your kin forms a productive unit. It is important to focus on the homefront before looking outward.

Helping your fellow co-worker, your family, may be more valuable than helping your fellow blonde, or your fellow yankee-fan.

Given the generality of the law and the way it was aimed also at southern europeans, it's clear that it wasn't stemming just from anti-semitism. But then we go back to just what anti-semitism is. Considering how Jews have these particular moral circles (i.e, relentlessly preferring their own tribe) wouldn't it have been rational for Americans back in the day to decide: okay, let's not have more of that? For members of an individualistic society, Jewish tribalism is quite unnerving.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
Hey Armoth, since you have been kind enough to talk to me, could you please explain what I did to suddenly get branded antisemitic? I honestly don't know.

I know I was asking essentially for clarification on something that Sa'eed said and I knew that might stir up some trouble (though that was not my intention) but this seems a bit extreme to me.

I would greatly appreciate an explanation and since my accusers are refusing to explain themselves, perhaps you could help.

I'm not sure why I'm being asked to defend Lisa and Shmuel. Is it because we're all Jewish?

I think they're wrong, and I hope they apologize or explain themselves.

And I think you're an idiot. I can almost see replying to Wingracer, who seems more ignorant than evil, but to continue this while Sa'eed el-Kalb continues spouting his trash simply facilitating evil.

I most certainly will not apologize. I wish you were capable of seeing that you're the one who should be apologizing. Continuing this the way you have is tantamount to vandalism. I hope you're proud of yourself.

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Sa'eed
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(Post Edited by Janitor Blade)

[ August 08, 2010, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]

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Sa'eed
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Lisa just called me a dog. fyi

"Sa'eed el-Kalb"

Says the Shrieking Harpy.

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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
And I think you're an idiot. I can almost see replying to Wingracer, who seems more ignorant than evil, but to continue this while Sa'eed el-Kalb continues spouting his trash simply facilitating evil.

I most certainly will not apologize. I wish you were capable of seeing that you're the one who should be apologizing. Continuing this the way you have is tantamount to vandalism. I hope you're proud of yourself.

And I have apologized even though you still will not tell me why I should apologize. I will let ignorant slide since in this case, that is exactly what I am but you are not helping me to solve that.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Lisa just called me a dog. fyi

"Sa'eed el-Kalb"

I modified that a bit on the other thread. Afwan.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
And I think you're an idiot. I can almost see replying to Wingracer, who seems more ignorant than evil, but to continue this while Sa'eed el-Kalb continues spouting his trash simply facilitating evil.

I most certainly will not apologize. I wish you were capable of seeing that you're the one who should be apologizing. Continuing this the way you have is tantamount to vandalism. I hope you're proud of yourself.

And I have apologized even though you still will not tell me why I should apologize. I will let ignorant slide since in this case, that is exactly what I am but you are not helping me to solve that.
I answered that in the other thread.
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Armoth
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I am, Lisa. I'm quite proud. Because I realize that when talking on the internet, I'm not just talking to one person, I'm talking to many who are reading along and forming impressions.

I'm also SUPREMELY aware of chilul Hashem. And while I have a great amount of love for you, I think you make mine and Rivka's life more complicated to the extent to which it is up to us to do Kiddush Hashem where you are engaged in chilul Hashem, even though your intentions are good.

You may be good with truth, but you're not so great with people.

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
(Post Edit by Janitor Blade)

My conversation with you is now over. Should anyone else like to respectfully pick up Sa'eed's questions, I'd be glad to answer them.

It's unfortunate that you perpetuated a stereotype that Muslims are anti-semetic. One of my closest friends is Muslim. Good guy.

I hope you pursue your life with intellectual honesty. No matter where that leads you.

[ August 08, 2010, 02:46 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]

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Lisa
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I think your wimpiness is a much bigger chillul Hashem. And I think that bending the truth in order to be better with people is a Very Bad Thing. This isn't a case of white lies, like "Yes, that dress is really pretty." This is a case of acting like it's perfectly acceptable for one person to spew antisemitism and another to ignore all responses to the first person and act as though they're being reasonable. It's a case of acting like you're afraid to stand up for who you are.

I'm sorry it took so long for you to stop pandering to ibn Kalba. I wish you were sorry as well.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Given the generality of the law and the way it was aimed also at southern europeans, it's clear that it wasn't stemming just from anti-semitism. But then we go back to just what anti-semitism is. Considering how Jews have these particular moral circles (i.e, relentlessly preferring their own tribe) wouldn't it have been rational for Americans back in the day to decide: okay, let's not have more of that? For members of an individualistic society, Jewish tribalism is quite unnerving.
Well, that's about as artful as anti-Semitism gets, I suppose, Sa'eed. Let's suppose for one moment that all of your assumptions and statements are correct (that's one helluva assumption, btw): you're talking as though individualistic, color-blind, race-blind America needed to protect itself from 'unnerving' Jews who, unlike Americans of the early 20th century, put up artificial boundaries between people.

Mix this up with a heaping helping of Not Helping by Lisa, and, well, an interesting and enjoyable thread goes down the crapper, or is certainly on its way.

Anyway, Wingracer, it would probably be wise to ignore Sa'eed, because either he's someone who we know around here as an infamous and pretty cowardly (for the Internet, and that's saying something) troll, or he's someone who came into a thought-provoking thread with seemingly polite but nonetheless remarkably similar 'questions' about Jews that are some of the most infamous hallmarks of anti-Semites since, well, for a very long time now.

Lisa, you'll find, is also best ignored when she gets into fanatic avenger mode.

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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
I think your wimpiness is a much bigger chillul Hashem. And I think that bending the truth in order to be better with people is a Very Bad Thing. This isn't a case of white lies, like "Yes, that dress is really pretty." This is a case of acting like it's perfectly acceptable for one person to spew antisemitism and another to ignore all responses to the first person and act as though they're being reasonable. It's a case of acting like you're afraid to stand up for who you are.

I'm sorry it took so long for you to stop pandering to ibn Kalba. I wish you were sorry as well.

I'm okay with the reputation I've built for myself on this forum. If others believe I represent Judaism as a wimp, let them tell me so.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I am, Lisa. I'm quite proud. Because I realize that when talking on the internet, I'm not just talking to one person, I'm talking to many who are reading along and forming impressions.

Quite right. While you will probably never convince someone like Sa'eed to see things your way, you have done nothing but reaffirm my respect for Jews. While I can certainly understand Lisa's anger now that she has finally explained the misunderstanding; if I had any misgivings about Jews before, she would have just reinforced them to an enormous degree.


quote:
I'm also SUPREMELY aware of chilul Hashem. And while I have a great amount of love for you, I think you make mine and Rivka's life more complicated to the extent to which it is up to us to do Kiddush Hashem where you are engaged in chilul Hashem, even though your intentions are good.

You may be good with truth, but you're not so great with people.

I am not familiar with those terms, though the context gives me a pretty good idea. Could you explain them please?
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Armoth
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I meant them for internal conversation, although you may google them if you really want to know.
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Lisa
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Kiddush Hashem is sanctifying God's name. Chillul Hashem is descrating God's name. Armoth thinks that by refusing to pander to inappropriate behavior, I'm making people lose respect for Jews, and thereby desecrating God's name. I think he's doing the same with his pandering.

Unlike Armoth, I believe in answering legitimate questions and not blowing them off.

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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:

Anyway, Wingracer, it would probably be wise to ignore Sa'eed, because either he's someone who we know around here as an infamous and pretty cowardly (for the Internet, and that's saying something) troll, or he's someone who came into a thought-provoking thread with seemingly polite but nonetheless remarkably similar 'questions' about Jews that are some of the most infamous hallmarks of anti-Semites since, well, for a very long time now.

Lisa, you'll find, is also best ignored when she gets into fanatic avenger mode. [/QB]

You will notice I only quoted him once and have made no mention of anything else he has said before or since.

As for Lisa, now that she has finally explained her anger I will gladly ignore her the moment she removes my name from the top of her post in the other thread.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
I'm okay with the reputation I've built for myself on this forum. If others believe I represent Judaism as a wimp, let them tell me so.

You actually do your best to recoup the damage Lisa does by association, what with how easily she can be baited into being a fanatical rageposter.

Ironically she's like the greatest ally someone like Clive Candy could hope for in a situation like this.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
As for Lisa, now that she has finally explained her anger I will gladly ignore her the moment she removes my name from the top of her post in the other thread.

Don't hold your breath. Unless you look good in blue.
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Given the generality of the law and the way it was aimed also at southern europeans, it's clear that it wasn't stemming just from anti-semitism. But then we go back to just what anti-semitism is. Considering how Jews have these particular moral circles (i.e, relentlessly preferring their own tribe) wouldn't it have been rational for Americans back in the day to decide: okay, let's not have more of that? For members of an individualistic society, Jewish tribalism is quite unnerving.
Well, that's about as artful as anti-Semitism gets, I suppose, Sa'eed. Let's suppose for one moment that all of your assumptions and statements are correct (that's one helluva assumption, btw): you're talking as though individualistic, color-blind, race-blind America needed to protect itself from 'unnerving' Jews who, unlike Americans of the early 20th century, put up artificial boundaries between people.
But that's the thing: White Americans back then were most certainly not color/race blind. They had a tribal identity that excluded Jews (and others). Why was this wrong if tribalism is okay in principle?
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Sa'eed
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(Post edited by Janitor Blade)

[ August 08, 2010, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]

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Rakeesh
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quote:
But that's the thing: White Americans back then were most certainly not color/race blind. They had a tribal identity that excluded Jews (and others). Why was this wrong if tribalism is okay in principle?
Transparent dishonest is transparent. You characterized white Americans of the early 1900s as though they were color and race blind.
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Amanecer
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Suppose those girls (and her parents) didn't specifically say negative things about others but just kept declaring concern/love for their people.

Then the offensive part would be removed. What minority religion/ ethnic group doesn't express an extremely strong connection to the group? If this bothers you, that's more your issue than anybody else's.
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Suppose those girls (and her parents) didn't specifically say negative things about others but just kept declaring concern/love for their people.

Then the offensive part would be removed. What minority religion/ ethnic group doesn't express an extremely strong connection to the group? If this bothers you, that's more your issue than anybody else's.
Ah, no. There's a difference between having a connection and making that connection verbally explicit and the maintenance of that connection a substantive part of your identity. If those girls kept declaring love and concern for white people but didn't go out of their way to say disparaging things about other groups you think there would be no controversy? Or would they be similarly vilified?
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Rakeesh
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So your question is, if they performed in a fundamentally different way, would they be treated differently?

Penetrating, though-provoking question, that.

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Wingracer
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Oh I SO want to respond to something our friend just said. I could definitely take him down a notch with this one but i think I had better be on my best behavior right now. [Big Grin]
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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
So your question is, if they performed in a fundamentally different way, would they be treated differently?

You think it would be "fundamentally different" of them to basically keep singing songs about the glories of white America while not dropping the n word? Really?
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Amanecer
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Well, first off, being "white" doesn't count as an ethnic group. Second, in America, it certainly isn't the minority. People form identities based on the groups that offer them a meaningful way to express what's unique about them. While I may be white and middle class, those are so non-special that they're not things that are remotely close to my heart.

When people harp on about some quality that is not very unique (being white) it's almost always in order to critique the minority- which is of course offensive. If the girls were just singing about how much they loved their people, and America, and the greatness of America, I don't see the offense. Now if they stop to clarify that "their people" only consists of white people- they're implicitly criticizing non-white people and it's offensive. For a Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, Atheist to say they like their people has a completely different connotation and I imagine you see the difference.

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Sa'eed
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
When people harp on about some quality that is not very unique (being white) it's almost always in order to critique the minority- which is of course offensive. If the girls were just singing about how much they loved their people, and America, and the greatness of America, I don't see the offense. Now if they stop to clarify that "their people" only consists of white people- they're implicitly criticizing non-white people and it's offensive. For a Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, Atheist to say they like their people has a completely different connotation and I imagine you see the difference. [/QB]

But Mormonism, Catholicism, and Atheism are multi-ethnic coalitions whereas Judaism is mostly defined by blood. The former three are a creed potentially open to all people whereas Judaism really does have a "people." Thus there's a tone of ethnic supremacy in a Jew declaring love for his people that is quite different from a Christian or an Atheist declaring love for his "people."
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