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Author Topic: Q/A with Judaism.
Mucus
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Is that really bizarre or just wish fulfilment? It seems like the ark being discovered and then handled only by this specific group of Christians (all commandments?) would be something that Ron would be very happy to see.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Where would the Israelis find anyone who could touch the Ark, without being struck dead?

Oh, that's easy. We've got Chuck Norris on speed dial.
Who knew there existed a Chuck Norris joke that not only didn't make me roll my eyes, it actually made me laugh?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Religion isn't stupid. It is a reflection of God's will.
Unless God doesn't actually exist, in which case religion is stupid.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Isn't the site of the Second Temple now a Moslem holy place? You would start a war if you rebuilt the Temple on the same site.

It's going to happen eventually, one way or another.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
And there is no indication the Ark of the Covenant does not still exist. It is probably still in the cave where Jeremiah and his Levite companions hid it, just prior to the Babylonian conquest.

Who said it doesn't exist? King Josiah (not Jeremiah) hid it away under the Temple Mount. But it was not in the Holy of Holies of the Second Temple.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
When the Ark of the Covenant is found (and of course, it is NOT in a warehouse at Area 51), that will have to have a profound impact. Would the Israelis use that as an excuse to try to rebuild the Temple?

In order to get to the Ark, we'll have to plow up the Temple Mount, which is something we'll be doing in the process of building the Temple. So there's no way it could become an excuse for the building.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
I would be more interested in the impact on the world when the tables of stone containing the Ten Commandments, written by the finger of God, are revealed.

I'm sure someone will try and check for fingerprints.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Where would the Israelis find anyone who could touch the Ark, without being struck dead?

<snicker> Why should that be a problem? I mean, aside from the fact that Uzzah didn't die only because he touched it, but because he tried to steady it, rather than relying on God to take care of it, we can always move it by its staves.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
In the Bible, only the Levites were allowed to touch the Ark. It would be interesting if no Jew anywhere could be found who could touch it and survive, and then finally some Christian ministers who believe in keeping all the commandments were allowed to touch it and bring it out.

And then ET would make the bicycle fly. Wait, is that the same movie?
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
4) Jews still have Priests and Levites. Any Jews you know with the last name Cohen or Katz? They are descendents of the priestly families. Any Lowensteins? Lowe? Rob Lowe, the levite could be carrying the Ark.

Well. There are plenty of Cohens and Katzes these days who aren't Cohanim. A growing number who aren't even Jewish, R'L. There are families that are known to be Kohanim meyuchasim, though, who have records. The Rapaport and Atlas families are among them.
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Xavier
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quote:

I would be more interested in the impact on the world when the tables of stone containing the Ten Commandments, written by the finger of God, are revealed.

How exactly would we know they were written by God and not some dude with a chisel?
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:

I would be more interested in the impact on the world when the tables of stone containing the Ten Commandments, written by the finger of God, are revealed.

How exactly would we know they were written by God and not some dude with a chisel?
It would be like the crystal skulls no sign of tool marks anywhere. *wonders how long we can keep tying Indiana Jones to this*
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Lisa
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There'll be about a liter and a half of manna in there as well. And a staff that flowered (and is probably still in flower. And the broken pieces of the first tablets. And best of all (from my POV), a copy of the Torah (five books of Moses) written in Moses' own hand. The only one remaining of the 13 he wrote.
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Dobbie
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Except the "Torah" that Moses wrote was a list of 611 commandments.
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Lisa
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First of all, the number you're looking for is 613. If you're going to be a troll, at least be an accurate troll. Second of all, the Torah Moses wrote went from "In the beginning" at the beginning of Genesis through "all Israel" at the end of Deuteronomy.
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Dobbie
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611. Look at the gematria.
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rivka
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6+1+1=8

um . . .

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Dobbie
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400+200+6+5=611
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rivka
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Ah.

And that is why gematria is used for "divrei cute" rather than "divrei serious". [Razz]

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Hobbes
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I wanted to say that I wasn't here when this thread got started and so I missed it; thus I'm glad it got revived, I've enjoyed re-reading it. Well, to be honest (confession!) I skipped some of the arguments but that's hardly the point. I wanted to thank those who had participated (both good questions and good answers) it's been enlightening to me though I hardly claim to have understood all of it.

One thing, I know no one cares because a) This thread isn't about Mormon doctrine, and b) This was posted in November, 2006 but...
quote:
We hold (and I know that Mormonism doesn't, so this is another difference) that God is omnipotent
It is LDS doctrine that He's omnipotent (and omniscient and omnipresent, though the last one most likely utilizes a different defenition that a lot of people... hard to tell as it can get kind of fuzy).

Anyways, sorry for that, my OCD nature made me post it, don't blame me! [Wink]

I actually have a question. One of the things that stuck out to me was the diversity of beliefs within Judaism. Is there some "level" of Judaism (level of organization I guess) at which one would expect the doctrine to be the same? Or, that all those who are members of: _____ theoretically share identical beliefs (removing the human/level of understanding factor)?

Hobbes [Smile]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It is LDS doctrine that He's omnipotent...
Yes, but you don't mean it. Your version of God has rules that He has to follow in order to remain God.
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mr_porteiro_head
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Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you there, Hobbes. The omnipotence of God we believe in is quite different from the common usage of the word. By the common usage, our God definitely is not omnipotent.

The LDS version of God's omnipotence is not that God can do anything, but that God can do anything that can be done. No, God cannot save us in our sins, but that doesn't detract from his omnipotence (LDS definition), because that is a thing that cannot be.

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Hobbes
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I'll certainly concede the point that we use the word differently but Joseph Smith (or whoever you want to call the author of Lectures on Faith) made it clear that an essential attribute of God was omnipotence, to the point that if you don't believe that than you don't have sufficient faith to be saved. I always (as in, even when I was a non-thiest) understood the definition of "omnipotence" to be having all the power there is, which fits LDS beliefs, but I agree "can do anything" doesn't if there's no limitations placed on that sentence. However, I really didn't intend to turn this into a discussion of LDS beliefs (that's meant for a Prop 8 thread! [Wink] ).

I want to clarify my previous question: it doesn't get at what I want to know so I think instead of trying to come up with the right question I'll try to explain what I want to get out of the answer. [Cool] Basically, if a Jewish person tells me that their belief runs such and such, how wide can I apply this? I recognize that in any religion there will always be personal interpretations and conjectures, but is there some point at which it is reasonable to expect that two people from that same group (whatever it is) will have the same doctrine?

I recognize this is very nebulous since there will always be differences, but hopefully you'll be able to see through the confusion of sentences to what it is I actually meant. [Smile]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes:
One of the things that stuck out to me was the diversity of beliefs within Judaism. Is there some "level" of Judaism (level of organization I guess) at which one would expect the doctrine to be the same? Or, that all those who are members of: _____ theoretically share identical beliefs (removing the human/level of understanding factor)?

In all sincerity, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "doctrine."

There are a very few beliefs that are considered fundamental, such that any group that rejects one of them is ipso facto outside the boundaries of [Orthodox] Judaism. The most widely accepted formulation of these beliefs is a list of thirteen principles enumerated by Maimonides, also known as the Rambam. You can see a concise summary of those, and a possible answer to your question, on the What do Jews believe? page of Judaism 101.

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TomDavidson
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Actually, I am a little curious about something. I know a number of Jewish sects disagree on the specifics of certain interpretations of various religious requirements (just as an example). This is, as I understand it, partly why there are so many different "Kosher" certifications. If it turns out that someone has lived their whole life in loving and dutiful accordance with the wrong interpretation of the Law, what's God's POV on that from the Jewish perspective?
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Hobbes
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quote:
In all sincerity, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "doctrine."
Nonetheless, your answer was still informative. [Smile]

In all honesty I'm not sure what I mean by "doctrine" either when it comes to Judaism. I'm trying to understand that how to apply the answers in this thread, and ones I have or potentially will find later IRL. Some beliefs are clearly held by all Jews but no very many it seems. Then as we break down into groups like "Orthodox" we get a few more beliefs that are common to all. Or so it seems. I guess the real problem comes when you try to determine when you've reached the point where all beliefs that actually essential are shared as I wouldn't know how to determine what "essential" meant. But that is what I'm asking anyways. [Smile] I guess to put this is a more practical light if I take something Rivka says as an "important part" of her beliefs, how far from Rivka can I get before I find it's not believed by others?

Once again I recognize this can't be nailed down with an exact answer due to the inexactness of words like "important" and "essential" but I'm hoping that clarifies it at least a little.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Actually, I am a little curious about something. I know a number of Jewish sects disagree on the specifics of certain interpretations of various religious requirements (just as an example).

The differences are pretty minor in general, but granted.
quote:
If it turns out that someone has lived their whole life in loving and dutiful accordance with the wrong interpretation of the Law, what's God's POV on that from the Jewish perspective?
As with most matters of outlook, I think opinions will differ widely on that one. (They'll all agree that you're required to do your best to get it right, though.)

Ultimately, we don't know what weight God assigns to the myriad factors in one's life, only that there is a judgment, and a system of reward and punishment.

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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes:
Some beliefs are clearly held by all Jews but no very many it seems.

One source of confusion might be that we'd make a distinction between "Jews" and "Judaism." With the rare exception of converts, the state of being Jewish is independent of one's religious practices and beliefs; if your mother was Jewish, you're Jewish, whether you like it or not. And there are a large number of Jews who consider themselves culturally Jewish without actually practicing Judaism. So by that definition of "all Jews," you're not going to find a consensus on anything.
quote:
Then as we break down into groups like "Orthodox" we get a few more beliefs that are common to all.
This may or may not help, but unless specified otherwise, Lisa, Rivka, and I pretty much take "Orthodox" for granted when we refer to "Judaism." (Others may vary.)
quote:
I guess to put this is a more practical light if I take something Rivka says as an "important part" of her beliefs, how far from Rivka can I get before I find it's not believed by others?
Would you happen to have an example of this?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
quote:
Then as we break down into groups like "Orthodox" we get a few more beliefs that are common to all.
This may or may not help, but unless specified otherwise, Lisa, Rivka, and I pretty much take "Orthodox" for granted when we refer to "Judaism."
While this is true, there are some large and significant differences between the three of our perspectives. None of us is typical of an Orthodox viewpoint, I think it is safe to say. I, for example, was raised by two academics. And that's enough to make anyone a bit twisted. [Wink]
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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
Ultimately, we don't know what weight God assigns to the myriad factors in one's life, only that there is a judgment, and a system of reward and punishment.

My Calculus teacher in H.S. gave partial credit for showing your work, and I consider her quite nice and fairly just.

I must then assume, God being Ultimately Good and Just, that since I can show my work for being an atheist, I should get quite a bit of credit.

MightyCow's wager is much more fun than Pascal's. [Evil Laugh]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
400+200+6+5=611

Dude, seriously? Frum? Ex-frum? What's your deal?
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Armoth
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I go to Virginia for shabbos and miss all the fun...
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes:
I actually have a question. One of the things that stuck out to me was the diversity of beliefs within Judaism. Is there some "level" of Judaism (level of organization I guess) at which one would expect the doctrine to be the same? Or, that all those who are members of: _____ theoretically share identical beliefs (removing the human/level of understanding factor)?

I'll give the answer that the others were too polite to give. Up until a little more than 200 years ago, there was a basic core set of beliefs shared by all Jews. There may have been individuals who differed, but there was no institutionalized difference. Some of the basic core tenets:
  • God exists.
  • God gave us the Torah (written and Oral) at Mt. Sinai. Literally, and not figuratively.
  • The laws of the Torah are obligatory for all Jews.
  • Among these laws are the requirements to keep kosher, keep Shabbat, keep family purity, etc, and with minor variations, there was a commonality of understanding about what this meant. There were minor differences between far flung communities (owing to the distance, the lack of telephones or faxes or email, and the lack of a centralized deciding body), but people who lived in one place held by the same laws.
And like I said, this situation held until the "Enlightenment". When the walls of the ghettos were relaxed, it was so liberating for some Jews that they got drunk on it. They were so enthralled by the idea that they could be part of Gentile society that the laws which kept them from being a full part of that society chafed. Even Orthodox Jews today, unless they're part of an extremely insular community, like Kiryat Yoel in New York, experience the way in which Jewish law keeps us separate. We can't make plans with our non-Jewish friends on Shabbat. We can't eat out with them unless they come with us to a kosher restaurant, and except in big cities, those are rarely available.

So a lot of Jews stopped observing. And it's not as though no Jews ever did that before. They've always been people who fell away to one extent or another. Sometimes they came back eventually, and sometimes they disappeared from the Jewish people, but it was an individual thing. But with the "Enlightenment", the numbers were huge.

When Jews went "off the path", as we say, they generally didn't try and justify it. They did what they did, but they still knew that Judaism was Judaism. And it's hard to live that way. Knowing that what you're doing is wrong, but feeling that you have to do it anyway. It makes you feel guilty, and no one likes that.

But there were so many people in this situation, that they were able to support one another, and eventually, some of them came up with rationales (rationalizations) for why it was actually okay for them to stop observing this or that commandment. "Pork was only forbidden because you can get trichanosis from it when there's no refrigeration, but now we have refrigeration, so we can eat pork." "The prophets all talked about social justice, so that's what's really important. Not all this legal stuff."

It was a bailout of sorts. Instead of debt-relief, it was guilt-relief. There was a demand for leaders who would tell them that they weren't doing wrong by abandoning Judaism; that in fact, they weren't abandoning Judaism. Rather, they were reforming Judaism. Bringing it back to its prophetic roots.

And people went for it big time. These reformers (or Reformers) were the beginning of the Reform movement. But about a century ago or so, there was a split in this movement. There was a banquet (that became known as the treyfe (non-kosher) banquet), held by the Reform movement in the US, at which shrimp and other blatantly non-kosher food was served. A lot of the people who'd gone with the Reformers felt uncomfortable going that far. Eating beef, even if it wasn't kosher, still felt like eating kosher beef. Eating shrimp and pork... that was something else entirely. So they broke away and started what became the Conservative movement. They called themselves Conservative because compared to the Reform, they were.

Today in the US, most non-Orthodox Jews have this fuzzy image in their head of Judaism always having been like Baskin-Robbins, with several "flavors" of Judaism. Meanwhile, Orthodox Jews just shake their heads and cry a little inside and hope that their family will come back.

But the movements keep coming. Back in the 1960s (I think; I don't feel like looking it up), a Reform rabbi named Sherwin T. Wine noticed that a poll of Reform rabbis showed that most of them didn't actually believe in God. Well, they didn't put it that way, but it was clear that the word "God" wasn't being used for anything like a deity. He decided (correctly, I think) that this was hypocritical. Why use the word God when you don't really mean it. So he started the "Movement for Humanist Judaism", which is explicitly atheistic.

So no, there's no common denominator of beliefs among all Jews. There's Orthodox Judaism, and there are the movements. Incidentally, "Orthodox" is a term that was originally given to us by the Reformers. It was a pejorative. But we eventually started using it ourselves.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Actually, I am a little curious about something. I know a number of Jewish sects disagree on the specifics of certain interpretations of various religious requirements (just as an example). This is, as I understand it, partly why there are so many different "Kosher" certifications. If it turns out that someone has lived their whole life in loving and dutiful accordance with the wrong interpretation of the Law, what's God's POV on that from the Jewish perspective?

Actually, the different kosher certifications, except for a very small number of ones done by the Conservative movement, are about very minor differences. Some are just more careful about specific issues than others. In some cases more careful than is actually required by law, but there are people who prefer the extra mile. In most cases, though, the main difference between certifications is simply geographic. The rabbinic council of Baltimore has one symbol. The rabbinic councils of Boston and Chicago and so on have theirs. Most of the time, they're all equally okay. There are some, like the Triangle-K, which a lot of communities have a problem trusting, because of certain leniencies that they are known to rely on.

But as far as someone who is raised without knowing what Judaism really says, and has been sincere in their actions, a person like this is considered a "captive child", and their culpability for their non-halakhic actions is greatly (according to some, fully) diminished.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
MightyCow's wager is much more fun than Pascal's. [Evil Laugh]
[Big Grin] I like that idea MC.
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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
While this is true, there are some large and significant differences between the three of our perspectives. None of us is typical of an Orthodox viewpoint, I think it is safe to say.

Oh, absolutely, on both counts.

In my case, I was frum [religiously observant] from birth. Lubavitch parents, but went to Litvish Yeshivish schools from kindergarten onward, including six years of beis medrash [seminary] after high school. I stopped being observant just before I turned 30, in 2003. The upshot of which is that I know what I'm talking about, but that it's safe to say I have Issues. [Smile]

(Any terms you don't understand in the above are best ignored. They're there strictly for those who do know 'em.)

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Armoth
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Lisa, great post.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
beis medrash [seminary]

*blink* That's probably a reasonable translation. It did startle me for a moment. [Wink]
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Hobbes
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I appreciate the responses, very informative! [Cool]

quote:
One source of confusion might be that we'd make a distinction between "Jews" and "Judaism." With the rare exception of converts, the state of being Jewish is independent of one's religious practices and beliefs; if your mother was Jewish, you're Jewish, whether you like it or not. And there are a large number of Jews who consider themselves culturally Jewish without actually practicing Judaism. So by that definition of "all Jews," you're not going to find a consensus on anything.
Fair point, I meant those who believe and practice their (Jewish) religion, but clearly you understood that already despite my poor wording.

quote:
Would you happen to have an example of this?
I think Lisa answered the thrust of my question but since you were kind enough to answer my question I guess I should answer yours, huh? [Wink]
quote:
Rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
If an Israelite several hundred years ago from say the tribe of Levi was adopted by a Danite would he always be listed as a Levite and never as a Danite?

Correct. For sources, look at the daughters of Tzelofchad and the prophet Shmuel (Samuel) -- who was never considered a cohen, despite having been adopted and raised by one.
Here's an example, nothing special just the first I could find. Other responses made it clear that at least those who are posting here agree that this is true. My question has nothing to do with how far this bit of doctrine extends but rather how far I can assume anything like it extends? Lisa either answered that or gave me enough information to come to my own conclusions on it, but there was my example. [Wave]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Mrs.M
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quote:
I go to Virginia for shabbos and miss all the fun...
Where in Virginia? I'm in Richmond and we now attend a Modern Orthodox shul (a lady in our shul laughingly refers to us as BT-in-training).
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adenam
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
beis medrash [seminary]

*blink* That's probably a reasonable translation. It did startle me for a moment. [Wink]
What's so startling?
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Armoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs.M:
quote:
I go to Virginia for shabbos and miss all the fun...
Where in Virginia? I'm in Richmond and we now attend a Modern Orthodox shul (a lady in our shul laughingly refers to us as BT-in-training).
That's so funny. I think that's the shul I'm attending. Knesseth Beth Israel? I'm staying at a friend who lives on Bevridge?
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Lisa
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I'm jealous. We were in Virginia a couple of weeks ago for my niece's bat mitzvah, and it would have been lovely to have gone to a frum shul. That said, this time they actually let us stay in the shul's library, instead of having to rent a camper and park behind the shul.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by adenam:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
beis medrash [seminary]

*blink* That's probably a reasonable translation. It did startle me for a moment. [Wink]
What's so startling?
Beis medrash == boys
Seminary == girls
Shmuel =! girl

[Wink]

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Armoth
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It's actually nice to see the place. It's nice to see a non-NY Jewish community every once in a a while.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
It's nice to see a non-NY Jewish community every once in a a while.

You should get out more. [Wink]
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adenam
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by adenam:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
beis medrash [seminary]

*blink* That's probably a reasonable translation. It did startle me for a moment. [Wink]
What's so startling?
Beis medrash == boys
Seminary == girls
Shmuel =! girl

[Wink]

Hehe you're right.
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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes:
quote:
Rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
If an Israelite several hundred years ago from say the tribe of Levi was adopted by a Danite would he always be listed as a Levite and never as a Danite?

Correct. For sources, look at the daughters of Tzelofchad and the prophet Shmuel (Samuel) -- who was never considered a cohen, despite having been adopted and raised by one.
Here's an example, nothing special just the first I could find. Other responses made it clear that at least those who are posting here agree that this is true. My question has nothing to do with how far this bit of doctrine extends but rather how far I can assume anything like it extends? Lisa either answered that or gave me enough information to come to my own conclusions on it, but there was my example. [Wave]
Ah. Yes. I had mistakenly taken "doctrine" as referring to beliefs, not practice.

As far as that goes, there's a sharp distinction between matters of halacha, or Jewish law, and hashkafa, or outlook. The former is practical, and deals with the rules for living your life. The latter embraces why you ought to do it that way, and other theoretical matters pertaining to Life, The Universe, and Everything.

My earlier post was talking about hashkafa, where there's wide variation outside of the basic defining beliefs. In matters of halacha, ideally everybody would agree on everything; in practice, thanks to millennia of diaspora and the lack of a central rabbinical court, there are minor variations among communities. However, I would stress that those are matters of fine points, stringencies, and customs.

The bit you quote above is a straightforward matter of halacha: does adoption alter one's tribal affiliation? Answer: no. Period. By contrast, Tom's question -- how does God treat somebody in a particular situation? -- is in the realm of hashkafa. There's no universal answer to that one.

(Nothing in the above is meant to give short shrift to hashkafa, which is vitally important. It just works differently.)

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Shmuel
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A fair point, Rivka. [Smile] But it's still the best cross-cultural translation I can think of!
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rivka
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I don't disagree. It just gave me pause.
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Lisa
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We tend to use seminary as girls' yeshiva, but seminary in the rest of the world means a place where you study religion.
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rivka
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<-- neither stupid nor oblivious, just more conversant with her own culture than anyone else's
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dkw
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I usually have to pause for a split second when LDS members use "seminary" in their posts. For the LDS it's religious education for high school students. For mainline Christian denominations it's graduate school.

So I totally understand rivka's mental hiccup.

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Dobbie
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Ah.

And that is why gematria is used for "divrei cute" rather than "divrei serious". [Razz]

quote:

Using this system, the word Torah itself was found to equal exactly 613. This might seem to be too bad, since, by the traditional count, the Torah was said to contain 613 commandments.
Unless...that was precisely the point! God Himself had spoken the first two commandments directly to Israel, and then Moses took over: "Torah [that is, 611] were commanded to us by Moses as an inheritance [to be passed on] to the people of Jacob."

How to Read the Bible by James Kugel, p. 253.
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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:
God Himself had spoken the first two commandments directly to Israel, and then Moses took over: "Torah [that is, 611] were commanded to us by Moses as an inheritance [to be passed on] to the people of Jacob."

The source for this being the Talmud, Makkos 23b-24a.

I'd still file it under "cute mneumonic." [Smile]

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rivka
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Is that a mnemonic filled with hot air?
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