posted
I give up. I've tried "alternative teaching methods" that rely on using colors, movement, clapping, tapping, fiddling -- because I know this is an area he struggles with.
We've tried rote memorization -- which he detests and fights tooth and nail.
I've tried being the "guide-by-the-side", I've tried rewards, I've tried nifty computer learning games, flashcards, money handling, cooking, etc.
We've tried the "set-up" your own study area, work at the kitchen table area, work at the breakfast counter area, work in his bedroom, in my bedroom, in the living room (no TV), outside, inside, at the library . . . it doesn't matter.
I've worked closely with teachers and tutors to figure out the best way to support him in the learning process. We've tried manipulatives. We've tried frequent breaks between problems.
In the final analysis, he simply does not want to do math. He is sloppy showing his work, when he shows it. He steadfastly refuses to memorize multiplication tables, and will not use any of the "figure it out" tricks those of us who dislike memorization use to get over that hurdle. This, of course, causes any number of problems when it comes to pre-algebra (oh joy of 6th grade math).
He dislikes the work involved in writing, too. Not in the creative process of coming up with a story, nor in thinking things through -- for his age, he's a deep thinker. But he dislikes putting pen to paper and following basic writing rules relating to sentence construction, grammar, punctuation, etc. Again, he's sloppy. When you talk him through it, he can tell you exactly what needs to happen in the sentence, and where, etc.
He says he like his piano teacher, and his weekly lesson (and I believe it -- she's really good with kids and makes it fun work, but it is work)-- but he won't practice. Or he'll minimally practice. He'd rather dink around and get crabby when I insist he practice up to her standard -- after all, I AM paying for these lessons that he swears he likes and wants to take. Heck -- he's been petitioning for hour-long as opposed to half-hour lessons. Which I told him I would pay for after he showed me his willingness to practice on a regular basis for at least three months.
He's capable. He's smart. Oh, is he smart. Yes, he has to struggle a bit with sequencing and a wee bit still with fine motor control, but it's not insurmountable. But he plain doesn't want to do the work. He wants to read, build with legos, play outside, read, swim, play outside, read, build with legos, swim, read . . . did I mention read?
I get it. I really do. When I was his age, there were things I wanted to do that had nothing to do with homework or chores or responsibility. Regardless, I did my homework, my chores, the things I was told to do. And if I gave my parents too much hassle or lip, they imposed their will in ways that were . . . shall we say . . . less than gentle.
I swear he thinks it should be handed to him on a silver plate. And I am past the point of fed-up.
I expect the push-back on the chores, and I get some, but at least he does them. Those are pretty simple: empty the garbage, the recycling, put away the clean dishes, chip in with the week-end housecleaning and yardwork with a willing attitude. Or at least, a slightly less than obnoxious one.
From a parent's perspective, I've had it.
I laid down the smack-down today. New rules:
1) He will do math every day, period, including working on memorizing his multiplication tables and practicing writing his problems and showing his work in a neat and tidy fashion. There is NO free reading any day until that daily requirement is met.
2) Piano lessons are suspended until he has shown me that he can practice on his own without my hassling him and until he has demonstrated to me a willing attitude and responsibility when it comes to his homework.
3) IF he does not improve within the month, his swimming lessons will be discontinued, also.
So, I'm mean.
Ah well.
If there is a technique, trick, idea we have not tried, that I am missing and you'd like to share it with me, please feel free. I'm all ears (or eyes, in the case of the forum.)
And in case you're wondering, I really do love this child. And I really do want him to succeed. And I really am at a complete loss for what else to do. Every fiber in me says he's been coddled, and allowed to do less than he's capable of because of health problems (big ones) but that really, he's stabilized, and he can do this . . . *sigh*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
You're not a mean mom, you're doing it right. And you're letting him do the hatrack gift exchange!
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing now, even though it is hard. Hard on him, AND hard on you. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I think the most important thing you can do now that you've already taken action is to STICK TO WHAT YOU'VE LAID DOWN, NO MATTER WHAT. Don't doubt yourself by thinking "Maybe this is too mean." And don't call it "giving up". This might be exactly what he needs.
Kids can be stubborn, but if you're firm, he'll realize that it doesn't matter that he doesn't like math or doesn't want to do it--he HAS to.
posted
Poor cub. I can relate. Math was torture to me... Still, you got to try to pass school though and it's a shame that one just can't read all day long... Perhaps when one is an adult like me . Then you never have to be forced to study math every again. Math is horrible.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
*deep breath and sigh of relief* Thank you -- I needed to get some feedback that I was on the right track.
Launchywiggin -- in answer:
Age: 12 (nearly 13). Reading Likes: Everything (from Hardy Boys to encyclopedias and all points in between.) Piano Likes: His teacher.
Sticking to it: Point taken -- I had just finished writing the new guidelines down in bold black ink when you posted. It will be prominently posted. Referred to frequently. And adhered to.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I don't want to sound like a typical 21st century everything-is-a-condition type, but have you considered that he might have a learning disability?
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Yes, and no he doesn't. Been through all that. He had some serious health conditions when he was younger that meant he needed to do some catch-up work 3-5th grade, but at this point, the only catch-up remaining has to do with willingness, attitude, and application.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:I laid down the smack-down today. New rules:
Good luck on those. Eventually you'll exhaust yourself keeping him on those rules. He's more stubborn than you are and if he is anything like I was you'll both be ready to jump off a bridge before the month's out.
*sigh* I'm sorry, Shan. I don't mean to sound like that, but I remember being him and feeling completly out of control. I wanted to make my mom happy and do my chores and like math. I just couldn't. I was physically incapable of being motivated. Of course you could throw a novel in front of me and have a verbal report within the day.
Thankfully, I grew out of it (mostly). I am still unable to do simple math but I keep my apartment clean and function like a normal person at work and at home. How I wish though, that someone had seen that I might have a learning disorder.
I really wish you luck, Shan. I don't envy what you're going through.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Boon
unregistered
posted
Maybe it'd help if you sat down with him and talked about long term goals. Like what he wants to be when he grows up, what he'll need to get into college...and for that matter what he needs to do to get out of high school (and the sixth grade).
I'm struggling with some of the same issues with Dan. It helped him considerably to know that what he was doing in "school" was helping him in the long run, even if he couldn't see it now. He actually chose his own math textbook series, and has set his own schedule to get through this year's book by May 1. He has ownership of his schedule, and completes his weekly assignments with minimal prodding now.
Of course, we're homeschoolers so you'd have to adapt this to your needs if you use it. In the meantime, I'll echo everyone else and say *Stick to Your Guns!* Good luck!
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quote:And in case you're wondering, I really do love this child. And I really do want him to succeed.
Just so you know, there was not a point in your narrative where I had any doubt as to either one of these.
quote:Parenting is hard. Single parenting is harder.
So true.
quote:Maybe it'd help if you sat down with him and talked about long term goals.
I like Boon's suggestions. I don't have any to offer. I do know that you have to find what motivates your kids and what makes an impact with them and it will be different for every kid. I could tell Natalie "Go to your room and don't come down until supper time" and she'd say "Okay!" and be perfectly happy. The same punishment would be devastating to Emily. So you have to know what to use for each one and it takes some trial and error to find out.
I hope this strategy works. *hugs*
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I'm not sure if this is possible, but for the math, could you tie it in somehow with the lego building? I don't remember what is happening in math at that age, but maybe ask him to figure out how many blocks are in a wall bay counting only the top and sides, or something like that?
Maybe also tie in the reading with math. If you go to the library, limit the amount of books he checks out by the number of math problems he's done. If you want to get really creative, make equations each week for the relationship between the number of problems he does and the number of books he checks out.
I don't have any kids, so I'm not actually drawing on any experience. These are just some thoughts that popped into my head.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote: quote:And in case you're wondering, I really do love this child. And I really do want him to succeed.
Just so you know, there was not a point in your narrative where I had any doubt as to either one of these. [Smile]
quote:Parenting is hard. Single parenting is harder.
So true.
I agree completely with this.
I'm no parent, so I really have nothing constructive to add, no tips, no hints, no idea. Sorry. But I will say that it sounds like you're doing the right thing. I wish you heaps and heaps of good luck.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Shan:"2) Piano lessons are suspended until he has shown me that he can practice on his own without my hassling him and until he has demonstrated to me a willing attitude and responsibility when it comes to his homework."
You certainly know your child best, but I generally don't think this particular response is warranted. First of all, nobody (except for freaks, and even then I don't know any) practices on their own without Mom hassling them, at least not at that age. Hassling just comes with the territory, and the reward is a huge payoff later. In my opinion, music lessons should be like chores, in the sense that they are something the kid has to do regardless of whether he likes it or not. If he likes it, great; if not, oh well.
I have a son that has some problems like this, and I'm afraid that one of the only things that works with him is to deny him the things he wants most (that aren't necessities, of course). That means desserts, his favorite stuffed animal, and television.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
It wasn't so long ago that I was a child much like him. I was very stubborn and also had a hard time working. Unless it was something I had choosen (and that didn't mean I had choosen piano lessons, that meant I had choosen the book and song), I just had an incredibly hard time forcing myself through the work. My parents never really layed the smack down. Much as they tried I was just too stubborn and they broke easily. But then, I didn't have too much trouble with most school work.
Thing is I never really learned how to force myself to work. I made it through high school and middle school alright, cause it wasn't hard. I didn't have to work to scrape by with Bs and A-'s. Now I'm in college and I have to work... and I never learned how. It is a huge problem and it's definately killing me.
So I guess what I'm saying is. Stick to it. Teach him how to work. He'll need it, oh man he'll need it. He'll be stubborn, more stubborn than you are. And it might take a long time. But whenever you feel yourself slipping just tell yourself: it's only going to get harder. If he can't make himself work on high school or elementary school stuff, he'll die when he hits college.
(((Shan))) You're doing the right thing. I wish you luck.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Silent E: In my opinion, music lessons should be like chores, in the sense that they are something the kid has to do regardless of whether he likes it or not. If he likes it, great; if not, oh well.
I have to disagree with forcing kids to play piano. So many kids start to hate it and it becomes a waste of time and money. The trick is getting them to LIKE playing it--by making sure they're playing something they love. They should want to be making music.
Shan,
quote:Originally posted by Shan: Age: 12 (nearly 13). Reading Likes: Everything (from Hardy Boys to encyclopedias and all points in between.) Piano Likes: His teacher.
Has he read Ender's Game? It's one of the books that really inspired me to try harder in school.
Curious, does his piano teacher happen to be a young female? Or just a really good teacher?
12 is scary. I have (much) younger brother who turned 13 last June, and he's definitely gotten stubbornly lazy with his schoolwork, despite the fact that he's smart enough to get A's.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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My mother fought this battle with sister #3. She fought it with sister #4. She's fighting it now with brother #5. (In case someone's confused by my numbering system, there are five of us, four girls and then a boy. Number indicates place and then the gender is added. I don't have five brothers.)
My brother is almost 15 now. He's slowly learning pride in his work. It's a long battle. My poor mother has been at it for the past 8 years or so, between them. Don't give up. Eventually you'll see results, if you can stick to it.
You're not being mean, you're being an awesome mom. Eventually he'll know that. And he'll be so grateful. Just hold out till then. Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
You're a great mom. Finding out his goals now would be good.
As for Long term goals, what can he do right now that would give him a place in the world? Not just what he wants to do when he's released from his middleschool sentance and can start serving his high school sentance not just what he can do when he's released from that sentance and can start serving the college one, not just what he can do after he's released from serving that time. What can he do right now that matters?
There's math involved in it, whatever it is.
The system is designed to make you miserable, apathetic and in general think life is meaningless. It is. At thirteen he's really an adult (albeit with no experience or vocabularly as an adult) we've just decided to give a new name to the stage of life while taking away almost all the priveleges.
math shouldn't be like waterboarding, but that's how a lot of kids feel.
How can he actually experience life rather than only be allowed to see it in a book or on tv by kids like Harry Potter and the Hardy Boys that get agency to make decisions that matter?
Don't make a long term goal he can look forward to in the eternity that 10 more years of school looks like at that age. Find out that long term goal and facilitate him in every way to be unleashed upon it right now.
Posts: 128 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
That sounds like me when I was at that age. My mom would sit down at the table with me and make me do my math problems. I had to do the Times Tables 1s through 11s every day, plus a set of random problems. I fought tooth and nail, but my mom told me that once I could go a whole week without getting a single problem wrong, I could stop. That was pretty good incentive, even though I still fought.
She also sat next to me every day while I practiced my trumpet and made me repeat messed up parts, helped me with notes, made sure I was in the right key and so on. I was cranky to have to practice, but eventually I was happy to know what I was doing.
Man, I need to give my mom a really good Christmas present this year Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I just wanted to add that, at least in my own middle school/ high school experience, I always found doing HW to be quite cumbersome. I always found it easy and more or less a waste of my time. It wasn't until the problems started challenging me that I really began to care about (or see a point to) homework. Maybe he's not being challenged at all? If this is the case, maybe you could talk to his teacher about maybe assigning less but more challenging work?
Posts: 168 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I never learned multiplication tables...
I haven't read the entire thread yet cuz I need to prepare to go to college today but I have some advice if you teach him a formula like pir*2$ make sure he understands what each symbol means, it took me 2 years to figure out circumfrence of a circle and area of a circle cuz' no one bothered to check, I had no idea what r meant or how to do it, I was told "this gives you this memorize it" without any info on how it works.
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quote: quote:And in case you're wondering, I really do love this child. And I really do want him to succeed.
Just so you know, there was not a point in your narrative where I had any doubt as to either one of these. [Smile]
I agree, wholeheartedly.
quote:2) Piano lessons are suspended until he has shown me that he can practice on his own without my hassling him and until he has demonstrated to me a willing attitude and responsibility when it comes to his homework.
3) IF he does not improve within the month, his swimming lessons will be discontinued, also.
My inly suggestion, beyond sticking with these and not changing your mind, is to make it clear there's always a way to get the lessons back, even after the lessons are revoked.
I might not make this clear until after the punishment has been invoked, but the important thing is that he doesn't think he's somehow irretrievably lost these things. It's in his control - do the work, take the lessons.
I'm sorry you had to do this, and I hope it works for you and your son.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
You all are such thoughtful folk -- thank you.
Goals: he wants to play professional baseball, and/or teach at the pre-K or early el ed level. We've had the talks and looks at how math fits into both of those goals . . . i.e., even if he plays pro-ball, he'd better understand enough math to keep track of his managers, pay, options, etc., and if he chooses to teach, he'll need to at least get through two years of college level math.
Piano: I did tell him that I would be listening and taking note of any/all self-motivated piano practice through the month of November -- and that if his piano lessons were that important to him, he'd make the effort to practice on a regular basis without my having to remind, needle, encourage, scold. He'd just do it, I'd hear it, and make note of it.
(That, of course, is in addition to goal #1: homework, particularly math homework, being done in a timely, neat fashion.)
Challenge: I don't think he's underchallenged. It's hard to be underchallenged when you don't have a good enough command of basic skills to keep up and do the daily work. And sadly, my observations of his work habits lead me to believe that it really has more to do with willingness and application.
Hence, I will now encourage application through withdrawal of well-loved privileges, such as free reading.
He knows that once he has finished his homework, including the additional math, and his chores, he can spend his time reading. But not before -- so to that extent, he is the master of his daily destiny. Such a lucky lad. No?
I will remind myself that change takes a minimum of 21 days to affect.
He did settle down this a.m. to his additional math pretty willingly.
And I do have to say that once the initial storm clouds had passed, his attitude appeared rather relieved. I think perhaps he's needed more structure and expectation than he has received -- so, to that extent, I have perhaps failed him.
Anyways, thank you all for the space and time to vent, plan, and consider -- and for the ideas, the reminders, the memories, the experiences. I appreciate your listening ears/reading eyes.
posted
Suddenly I am reminded of some episode of Bernie Mac where the little girl's father came and told her she didn't have to practice the way Bernie wanted her to and should just have fun. Then she had a piano recital and embarassed herself in front of everyone from not being able to play. So do not feel bad. You are doing your best. *flower*
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:And I do have to say that once the initial storm clouds had passed, his attitude appeared rather relieved. I think perhaps he's needed more structure and expectation than he has received -- so, to that extent, I have perhaps failed him.
Not at all. In fact, I am impressed that you are willing to accept that he needs more structure and expectation and to provide it. It's not someting I saw much of when I was working with kids. In fact, I was told not to recommend it because, "Parents don't want to hear that." That's one of the things that made me glad to get out of education/child care - the administration pandering to what they think parents want to hear. I think it's an unfair judgment of parents and a disservice to the kids and I disregarded it as much as I felt I could get away with.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Shan, you are one of my absolute favorite parents anywhere. I think you're doing the complete right thing. If I had a boy, I would be asking you for advice. This could be the best thing ever for him. Stick to your guns - you're doing right. *hugs*
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think it's all been said, but Shan, you are a wonderful mom, and one day he will thank you for this Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: It wasn't so long ago that I was a child much like him. I was very stubborn and also had a hard time working. Unless it was something I had choosen (and that didn't mean I had choosen piano lessons, that meant I had choosen the book and song), I just had an incredibly hard time forcing myself through the work. My parents never really layed the smack down. Much as they tried I was just too stubborn and they broke easily. But then, I didn't have too much trouble with most school work.
Thing is I never really learned how to force myself to work. I made it through high school and middle school alright, cause it wasn't hard. I didn't have to work to scrape by with Bs and A-'s. Now I'm in college and I have to work... and I never learned how. It is a huge problem and it's definately killing me.
This post could almost be about me, except that I was able to skate through college also (on a full scholarship) - it wasn't until grad school that I've really run into trouble. My mom did force me to practice piano for several months (with the end result that I quit at age 8 and picked it up again on my own at 15 or 16), but similar discipline with schoolwork was never established/enforced because I got mostly straight As on my own until high school, and even then I still got mostly As and Bs.
Anyway, my point is that self-motivation/discipline is one of the things I really wish I'd learned young. I'm trying to learn it now, at 25, but boy, is it hard! And I don't really know that I'm making much progress.
Shan, as much as he may hate it now, you're doing the right thing. Lots of luck to both of you.
Posts: 952 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I didn't read all your responses, and I can't really offer you any advice, except "Don't Despair".
I was EXACTLY like that until I was a Jr. in high school. Not only did I find math to be boring, I didn't see any application for it in my life (particularly algebra), and I felt I had more worthwhile and important thisngs to do in my life - like drawing and painting and riding my horse. In addition to being a waste of time and resources, I fet it was a LIE. It was presented to me as TRUTH, rather than just GAME RULES.I was the most oppositional kid on the planet and I just flat out refused to go to class. I got all Fs in math and they threatened to make me go to summer school. I laughed their faces and said "you haven't successfully gotten me to go to winter school, good luck getting me inside during the summer." My poor parents.
In High School I discovered Geology. Once I started making maps, I realized that a little bit of math made a little bit of sense. And I needed math to graduate. So I took the math. Bit the bullet about it being a lie and pretended I was studying the primitive belief system of an alien race which had nothing to do with truth. Got an A.
Went on to college. MAJORED in geology. Had to have math, all the way through calculus. Aced it all. Why? There was a use for it. And once I got to calculus it stopped being a lie. "Imaginaary numbers?" no problem grokking that - IMO, They are ALL imaginary, it's just when you get to calculus, they admit it.
So in spite of the struggle, not having a math brain probably won't scar your son for life.
What did I do with my geology degree? nothing. I became an artist. but I sure can go on camping trips and stand on outcrops and wave my arms around with the best of them. And the math does come in handy when I have to explain to other artists how to scale something or understand statistics.
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. Then you never have to be forced to study math every again. Math is horrible.
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