posted
Good day everybody! How are you all doing? I've been a lurker at this forum for a little while. I apologize for using my first post to tell you what has already been told a million times, but I really feel the need to say this, in light of some of the recent posts I've seen.
Don't hold a grudge.
I've been lurking here long enough to see that, while Hatrack is a very nice place, there are a couple of ugly, hurtful things that have been said. Arguments have spilled over from one thread to another, and some people have taken it upon themselves to attack a certain person regardless of the subject matter of the thread.
That has to stop.
All people have the potential for change. The most naive person alive could, in a thread, create something legitimate, and have a wonderful discussion. Someone who is normally vitriolic in discussions about a certain subject could later make an objective, well-worded and meaningful post on the subject and contribute to a helpful, enlightened discussion. So don't ignore posts simply because of who made it, and don't make personal attacks on people.
Another rather disturbing trend in some threads is posting simply to de-rail and discredit the thread. Posting to say that you are ignoring someone, or posting to disrupt a discussion due to a personal problem with a poster, is destructive to the spirit of open discussion. As is calling someone ignorant or stupid. Regardless of who the other poster is, or what they might have done.
And finally, in the spirit of togetherness, lighten up. Don't fight fire with fire, vitriol with vitriol, however much you think the other deserves it. If someone attacks you, don't attack back. If you are given a punch and respond in kind, how can you truly say that you were the better? Be happy that you belong to such a beautiful community, and can freely discuss any allowed subject without fear of harrasment. Don't worry, be happy.
posted
I agree. Fighting wears me out. That's why I get so sick of all the arguing on big topics. There's enough of that on other forums, even on Dir en grey forums. All I want to do is to talk about how cool the band is and how wonderful their music is and some irratating goon has to come along going on about how they are a bigger fan than me because I've only been into them for 5 years and they've been into them for 9. Irratating. People need to chill. I hate social Darwinism.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
*doesn't stay away from Bok* *in fact annoys him constantly and makes him wear really stupid paper hats and laughs at him*
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't see how there can be any "togetherness" when everything I say is written off. I also don't see how there can be any "togetherness" when people feel perfectly free to gang up on and pick on me and still think that they don't owe any kind of apology. So I'm not going to lighten up. I feel like I get treated like everyone's freaking doormat here, and no one has listened to what I've been trying to express to him/her. Instead, they make slightly more polite and even more insidious comments and make it impossible for any of my ideas to actually be addressed.
posted
But it is incredibly difficult for me to say ANYTHING when I feel like all someone has to do is mention money and then all of a sudden nothing that I say is valid anymore. Which is pretty much the same way I felt on how everyone jumped all over me for deleting a thread in which....I was being insulted and treated like crap. Why do I have to be the whipping boy? Are my feelings less valid? Are my thoughts less valid? 'cause that's exactly how I'm being treated by a lot of people.
quote:Originally posted by pH: I don't see how there can be any "togetherness" when everything I say is written off. I also don't see how there can be any "togetherness" when people feel perfectly free to gang up on and pick on me and still think that they don't owe any kind of apology. So I'm not going to lighten up. I feel like I get treated like everyone's freaking doormat here, and no one has listened to what I've been trying to express to him/her. Instead, they make slightly more polite and even more insidious comments and make it impossible for any of my ideas to actually be addressed.
-pH
Yes, pH is my doormat, and she reads "Get Lost". I clean my muddy boots on her before I walk inside and I hide my keys beneath her. She receives my Sunday paper and she is stepped on by every one who walks inside: even complete strangers.
Yes, pH is my doormat.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: From what I've seen, people haven't ganged up on you because it was you, but because they all disagreed with what you said.
I don't know if that helps or not.
I don't see how one can disagree with "Some of what I've read here is really hurting my feelings; I'd appreciate it if you'd be a little more mindful."
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I get ignored often...
Hi Syn.
(I just couldn't let this post be ignored. The pathos would have killed me. And incidentally, I read all your posts. The fact I don't comment doesn't mean I'm ignoring you - sometimes I just don't have anything valid or constructive to say.)
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: From what I've seen, people haven't ganged up on you because it was you, but because they all disagreed with what you said.
I don't know if that helps or not.
I don't see how one can disagree with "Some of what I've read here is really hurting my feelings; I'd appreciate it if you'd be a little more mindful."
-pH
Doormats have feelings?
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure if I've ever seen any of the threads you are describing, could you please provide me some links so I can go forth and defend the honor of my precious doormat?
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
What? What's going on here? Where did this all come from?
Also, do we have to keep apologizing for the stuff with the deleted thread? I thought we all tried to make it really clear that we were trying to have a discussion in that thread about the topic you started, pH, and that the only moment when we got upset with you was when you deleted an entire day's worth of thoughtful conversation.
Listen, I like you a whole lot and I think you're a really fun girl. But to be honest, you seem to bring up the idea that you're constantly being picked on, especially for your wealth, an awful lot. I would understand why you feel this way if I EVER saw it happening here on Hatrack, but I never, ever have. So I can't really understand why you feel that we all hate and persecute you because you have money. I really can't.
Also, I don't ignore Syn. She's fun.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: From what I've seen, people haven't ganged up on you because it was you, but because they all disagreed with what you said.
I don't know if that helps or not.
I don't see how one can disagree with "Some of what I've read here is really hurting my feelings; I'd appreciate it if you'd be a little more mindful."
-pH
That's not what I meant. When you feel like you're being ganged up on or dogpiled, in my observation, it isn't happening because people have chosen to pick on you; it's happening because you've said something that a lot of people disagree with.
I'm talking about the inital disagreement.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'm very sorry to hear that, pH. I'm sorry if you feel that Hatrack doesn't take you seriously, or if you feel that people tend to gang up on you. From what I've seen of you in my lurking days, you are a generally well-informed, likeable poster, and I tend to be very interested in what you have to say.
The togetherness I spoke of is very real, in my eyes. Never have I seen such an online community, where people can discuss anything and get a well-informed opinion, where people routinely get together and have fun offline, where people can jump from one thread discussing politics to a thread discussing Thanksgiving recipies. A forum where people actually know each other's names (so far I've learned Pearce and Esther), and where people are so genuinely supportive.
A question. Have you brought these issues up with the other members? Perhaps they slighted you accidentally or in ignorance. Have you asked for an apology?
Posts: 155 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
If you aren't a Mod, please telling people what they can and can't do. Most people on Hatrack are very patient most of the time, but some things shouldn't be tolerated. And just because you feel like some things have gotten out of control doesn't mean everyone agrees with you, nor do you have the right to tell people what "must" happen.
If someone is constantly belligerent, ignorant, and combative, sometimes the only thing to do is stop letting them get their own way. I am not talking about feeding trolls, although it can be a close call at times. I am talking about standing up to what amounts to internet bullies.
After a few times one thing or another happens.....either they reveal themselves as trolls, they realize that such behavior isn't tolerated and focus on actual discussions, or they leave.
I am sick of the crap I have been reading the past two months, and have decided that it was time to say so. Nothing you can "order" me to do will matter.
Like we have never had someone try to use an alt like this before. I may be wrong, but time will tell.
BTW, I am NOT talking about you, pH. I don't even know what thread you are referring to, to be honest.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I assume you wished to state that I should please stop telling people what to do. I assure you that was not my intention. Perhaps I should reword my first post.
Where is it that you think I crossed the line?
Posts: 155 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rotar Mode: I assume you wished to state that I should please stop telling people what to do. I assure you that was not my intention. Perhaps I should reword my first post.
Where is it that you think I crossed the line?
Perhaps...I am also really tired. Black Friday was a 14 hour day for me, and today was a 10 hour one. Sorry if I snapped at you a bit. But these comments of mine today weren't random, nor did I say anything that I did not intend to say. I don't know you, or if you are an alt, but anyone telling me what I can and can't so at this point, when I have been more than tolerant for months of this crap, would rub me the wrong way.
In theory you probably are correct....and if you look at my posting history for the most part it bears that out. I have had numerous discussions wiht people of an opposing viewpoint here at Hatrack, and never a cross word was said even if we never agreed.
But those rules only work if everyone agrees to them. If you have people who don't then you need to explain to them, very clearly, what you think of them.
If you don't then you are contributing to the very same decline you object to.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Libbie: What? What's going on here? Where did this all come from?
Also, do we have to keep apologizing for the stuff with the deleted thread? I thought we all tried to make it really clear that we were trying to have a discussion in that thread about the topic you started, pH, and that the only moment when we got upset with you was when you deleted an entire day's worth of thoughtful conversation.
And why, pray tell, do YOU think I deleted that thread? The mere fact that you're bewildered by my deleting it simply proves my point. No one has EVER apologized to me directly for all of the things that were said to and about me in that thread. On top of that, I DO get picked on because when I try to comment on something, it turns into "Well, you just say that because you have money" or some crap like that. It always comes down to I just don't understand and therefore no one has to pay attention. Well, YOU obviously don't understand how much it hurts for people to constantly comment about how kids whose parents pay for their school are brats who don't really appreciate their education. Which is what I was TRYING to point out with the deleted thread. For which I was promptly attacked. And then I was attacked for deleting a thread in which I was attacked to the point that it made me cry. You know, when I mention something about needing a new dishwasher and someone makes a post essentially saying that I should just wash them by hand...that hurts. When I try to discuss anything about health care and all anyone will say to me is that I only think X because apparently I am just rolling in it, that hurts. And apparently, no one ever thinks about that kind of thing. And when I try to point it out, all of a sudden I'M the one being judgmental.
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: What? What's going on here? Where did this all come from?
Also, do we have to keep apologizing for the stuff with the deleted thread? I thought we all tried to make it really clear that we were trying to have a discussion in that thread about the topic you started, pH, and that the only moment when we got upset with you was when you deleted an entire day's worth of thoughtful conversation.
And why, pray tell, do YOU think I deleted that thread? The mere fact that you're bewildered by my deleting it simply proves my point. No one has EVER apologized to me directly for all of the things that were said to and about me in that thread. On top of that, I DO get picked on because when I try to comment on something, it turns into "Well, you just say that because you have money" or some crap like that. It always comes down to I just don't understand and therefore no one has to pay attention. Well, YOU obviously don't understand how much it hurts for people to constantly comment about how kids whose parents pay for their school are brats who don't really appreciate their education. Which is what I was TRYING to point out with the deleted thread. For which I was promptly attacked. And then I was attacked for deleting a thread in which I was attacked to the point that it made me cry. You know, when I mention something about needing a new dishwasher and someone makes a post essentially saying that I should just wash them by hand...that hurts. When I try to discuss anything about health care and all anyone will say to me is that I only think X because apparently I am just rolling in it, that hurts. And apparently, no one ever thinks about that kind of thing. And when I try to point it out, all of a sudden I'M the one being judgmental.
-pH
Pearce love, I think you need to calm down. Personally, I never got to actually see the thread so although I believe that perhaps some of the things there could've been offensive, I don't have anything I could use to defend you on this one. Not that I think you need me to defend you or anything.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
If it's any consolation my parents are paying for my 5 year degree, and we have a dish washer.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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I never knew you had money. It does not matter to me. My family has money. My parents are, by all measures, very well off. Dad can buy a $75,000 sports car for cash. All of the grand kids college educations, through a Master's degree, are paid for. Three houses. Big deal.
It is how you handle yourself on the site that matters. In my experience, if you don't make a big deal of your status, others will not either.
However, that is just my experience. Yours may, and seems to have, vary.
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: What? What's going on here? Where did this all come from?
Also, do we have to keep apologizing for the stuff with the deleted thread? I thought we all tried to make it really clear that we were trying to have a discussion in that thread about the topic you started, pH, and that the only moment when we got upset with you was when you deleted an entire day's worth of thoughtful conversation.
And why, pray tell, do YOU think I deleted that thread? The mere fact that you're bewildered by my deleting it simply proves my point. No one has EVER apologized to me directly for all of the things that were said to and about me in that thread. On top of that, I DO get picked on because when I try to comment on something, it turns into "Well, you just say that because you have money" or some crap like that. It always comes down to I just don't understand and therefore no one has to pay attention. Well, YOU obviously don't understand how much it hurts for people to constantly comment about how kids whose parents pay for their school are brats who don't really appreciate their education. Which is what I was TRYING to point out with the deleted thread. For which I was promptly attacked. And then I was attacked for deleting a thread in which I was attacked to the point that it made me cry. You know, when I mention something about needing a new dishwasher and someone makes a post essentially saying that I should just wash them by hand...that hurts. When I try to discuss anything about health care and all anyone will say to me is that I only think X because apparently I am just rolling in it, that hurts. And apparently, no one ever thinks about that kind of thing. And when I try to point it out, all of a sudden I'M the one being judgmental.
-pH
I do not mean to sound insensitive, but do not let these people bring you down. They know very little about you and your situation and you are cool and solid. Folks that say stuff like that are making ridiculous assumptions they should stop making. *flower and some taco bell and a small skronky cute little pine tree* Do not feel bad....
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I just assumed this thread was aimed at me (at least in part) because of the stuff going on with GS.
I'd be happy to explain why I am not more tolerant of some of the things he does. There's quite a bit of back story there, much of it that has not gone on in the public forums but which convinced me that if I want to stay at Hatrack I have to continue to invest in it even when it is painful.
I understand that sometimes ignoring the misbehavior is a better (more effective, less upsetting for everyone else) tactic. I would like to assure everyone that I didn't decide on this approach lightly. But also wish to assure everyone that if I became convinced that it is ultimately harming Hatrack's community to be confrontational about things I see as destructive of the place, I would stop it immediately.
Right now, I'm not convinced of that. But do feel free to point out the negative impact of it if you feel strongly about it. Either publicly or in e-mail. I might just be missing the larger "downsides" of this.
As for pH, I didn't see the thread in question, so I can't comment on it, but I grew up around people who were much, much, much richer than me, some of whom were spoiled little rich kids and some of whom were genuine, warm people.
Pearce in person is a genuine, warm person. I think she's also very funny.
I don't have a sense of her coming off any other way here at Hatrack, but maybe that's just because we met and the impression she left with us was a strong positive one.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: I'd be happy to explain why I am not more tolerant of some of the things he does. There's quite a bit of back story there, much of it that has not gone on in the public forums but which convinced me that if I want to stay at Hatrack I have to continue to invest in it even when it is painful.
I understand that sometimes ignoring the misbehavior is a better (more effective, less upsetting for everyone else) tactic. I would like to assure everyone that I didn't decide on this approach lightly. But also wish to assure everyone that if I became convinced that it is ultimately harming Hatrack's community to be confrontational about things I see as destructive of the place, I would stop it immediately.
Right now, I'm not convinced of that. But do feel free to point out the negative impact of it if you feel strongly about it. Either publicly or in e-mail. I might just be missing the larger "downsides" of this.
Amen.
I have never discussed this with Bob, here or in email, but in this we completely agree. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Bob, my post was in no way directed at you. Indeed, in the little I have seen in those discussions, you have set the bar for online behaviour. I have never once in my (very short) history at Hatrack, seen you attack someone.
I did not name a specific thread, as I was posting to address a general trend. However, looking back at my first post, I can see where I made some phrasing errors. I think I will edit it tomorrow, after a good long night's sleep.
Posts: 155 | Registered: Nov 2006
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If you look in my OCD thread and find the part where I talk about my therapist calling me names and being mean to me, you'll also find at least one comment stating that what the person though I was REALLY upset about was "How DARE someone speak to me like that!"
That's really, REALLY hurtful. I mean, there I was talking about something that had upset me to no end because not only had someone picked on me, but my THERAPIST had picked on me....and it somehow is still interpreted from the "You're a snob" angle.
posted
Some therapist... They should not talk about you like that. Did you get a new one? That's not acceptable therapist behavior.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I feel like I get treated like everyone's freaking doormat here
You don't. I haven't said anything about this before -- despite your frequent mention of this impression -- but I really do believe that your perception in this case is far removed from the reality. Perhaps you would be better off directly addressing the people you think have slighted you....?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Rotar Mode: Bob, my post was in no way directed at you. Indeed, in the little I have seen in those discussions, you have set the bar for online behaviour. I have never once in my (very short) history at Hatrack, seen you attack someone.
I did not name a specific thread, as I was posting to address a general trend. However, looking back at my first post, I can see where I made some phrasing errors. I think I will edit it tomorrow, after a good long night's sleep.
Not necessary, and uncalled for, to be honest. You have made it clear that it wasn't intended as an "order", despite how it was phrased.
You can do what you would like, of course, up to and including deleting the whole thread, but rather than editing entire swathes of your initial post I would recommend just clarifying. It is usually considered better manners that way, because it doesn't make the posts after your seem irrelevant once the edit is done. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Just for another example:
If you look in my OCD thread and find the part where I talk about my therapist calling me names and being mean to me, you'll also find at least one comment stating that what the person though I was REALLY upset about was "How DARE someone speak to me like that!"
That's really, REALLY hurtful. I mean, there I was talking about something that had upset me to no end because not only had someone picked on me, but my THERAPIST had picked on me....and it somehow is still interpreted from the "You're a snob" angle.
-pH
Can you provide us with a link to said thread?
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'm definitely not going to delete this thread. I will take your advice to heart and clarify. Tommorow. After sleep. Lots of sleep.
Posts: 155 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I hear you there....and welcome to Hatrack, if you really were a lurker.
When I started here people didn't believe I was new, and I had a ...rough....introduction, at least from some people. I have found a number of real friends here though, and I love this place.
I hope you really do as well. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:I understand that sometimes ignoring the misbehavior is a better (more effective, less upsetting for everyone else) tactic. I would like to assure everyone that I didn't decide on this approach lightly. But also wish to assure everyone that if I became convinced that it is ultimately harming Hatrack's community to be confrontational about things I see as destructive of the place, I would stop it immediately.
My comment is general. I also tend to agree with the sentiment that certain behaviors, including trolling and bullying, should not be tolerated and allowed to run rampant. There is far too much of that going on here. It has made Hatrack much less enjoyable to me.
Unfortunately, I frequently don't have the energy to do much about it myself. I applaud and support those who do and who do so in a reasoned and thoughtful manner. That includes Bob and Kwea and many others.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I don't want to be an old, curmundgy person always talking about the "golden times".....there really weren't any "golden times", to be honest. We had Ced, and w2w, and OSCfan, just to mention a few.
But in the past, people did seem to be less whiny, and less willfully ignorant.
At some point, you HAVE to say enough is enough. That isn't to say I claim to be an ultimate arbitrator in any sense of the word, but I will not allow some thing to pass without comment.
I thrive on disagreement. Really, I do......but disagreement isn't the same as argument. I can argue a point, or debate it, with anyone and not make it personal. But when I have to sit a read slam after slam on people I care about....and when the same jackass attempts to threaten MY welcome and MY credibility when he himself is a jumped up, ignorant nOOb that no one likes or respects, I WILL call him on it.
(Yeah, "chum", I mean you.)
No one has to agree with me. I know the people I care about here, and most of them know I care, and that is enough for me. But I am tired of seeing some of the best people I have ever met leaving Hatrack....mostly because they are tired of the ignorant, adolecent attitudes others are giving them here.
Not everyone, not even a large minority.....but there has been some BS floating around here for too many months, and no one has fully called anyone out on it.
When people come in here and crap on our lawn, and we don't at least vocally object to it, it sets a bad example for other new people here. The ones who AREN'T part of the problem. They start to think that Hatrack is just another place on the web, less of a community than it always has been. It lessens us in their eyes, and that lessens the community as a whole.
I will not allow that to happen, at least not without pointing it out to us as a community. If we decide to tacitly allow this type of crap then that is fine. But no one will ever be able to say I was part of why it ended so poorly.
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: What? What's going on here? Where did this all come from?
Also, do we have to keep apologizing for the stuff with the deleted thread? I thought we all tried to make it really clear that we were trying to have a discussion in that thread about the topic you started, pH, and that the only moment when we got upset with you was when you deleted an entire day's worth of thoughtful conversation.
And why, pray tell, do YOU think I deleted that thread? The mere fact that you're bewildered by my deleting it simply proves my point. No one has EVER apologized to me directly for all of the things that were said to and about me in that thread. On top of that, I DO get picked on because when I try to comment on something, it turns into "Well, you just say that because you have money" or some crap like that. It always comes down to I just don't understand and therefore no one has to pay attention. Well, YOU obviously don't understand how much it hurts for people to constantly comment about how kids whose parents pay for their school are brats who don't really appreciate their education. Which is what I was TRYING to point out with the deleted thread. For which I was promptly attacked. And then I was attacked for deleting a thread in which I was attacked to the point that it made me cry. You know, when I mention something about needing a new dishwasher and someone makes a post essentially saying that I should just wash them by hand...that hurts. When I try to discuss anything about health care and all anyone will say to me is that I only think X because apparently I am just rolling in it, that hurts. And apparently, no one ever thinks about that kind of thing. And when I try to point it out, all of a sudden I'M the one being judgmental.
-pH
I was quite active in that thread, and I remember it, and the one that followed it. I think you were being overly sensitive, though you did have a valid complaint in it. For the most part, people did however seem to be taking issue with your positions, rather than you as a person (though I can easily see how the two would be connected in that specific circumstance).
Furthermore, you were quite hostile towards me in and out of that thread, and I've yet to receive an apology over it. I was more neutral than anything, because I personally disagreed with you, but refused to 'go after you,' so I attempted to keep asking questions to all sides to get people to clarify, as I knew you were taking personal offense to everything. But you came after me anyways, which I think only serves as an example of how out of proportion you were taking the posts in that thread.
Other than those two threads, and your repeated mentions of the OCD thread (which I haven't ventured into), I haven't seen any anti-Pearce activity anywhere else. Do you take up these issues with individuals outside of Hatrack? (Hopefully not as confrontationally as you did with me).
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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