quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Excommunication is extremely unlikely. The LDS church does not excommunicate anyone for not being an active member.
That's true. However, they do, on occasion, request that you write to have your name removed from the records of the church so they won't be under obligation to keep bugging you every year or so.
At least that's how it played out with me.
Edit to add: TL, I think you're handling this fine. Note, though, that as long as you are a member of record, the LDS hierarchy really are under divine commandment to shepherd you to the best of their ability unless you tell them in no uncertain terms that you don't want their visits. To my knowledge, though, such wishes are only noted locally. Once you move, if your records ever catch up to you, you're likely to get another surprise visit, depending on the dilligence of the local ward. The only way to really ensure there will be no random surprise visits (except by chance from missionaries) is to have your name removed from the records officially.
For my part, I didn't care about the random visits. My name would still be on church records if they hadn't explicitly asked me to request removal.
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Karled, I'd never heard of anyone being asked to request removal before. I've always been told that that is discouraged. I'm surprised, quite frankly.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I've heard of it before. Not in any official capacity, but a member in one my wards when I was a missionary told the elders when they knocked that they had been visited a year before and when they said they wanted nothing to do with the church, the visitor suggested writing to SLC to get their name removed.
It was a mission rumor, so take that for what it is worth. That was the rumor, but who knows what actually happened.
TL, I am very impressed. I think you're handling everything beautifully.
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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Karled, I'd never heard of anyone being asked to request removal before. I've always been told that that is discouraged. I'm surprised, quite frankly.
I can't speak to how prevalent it is. I can only relate my own experience.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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So the night before the meeting, I pulled up Google Maps and found out that the church was 3 miles away... Which is a long walk when it's 9 degrees outside. He'd given me directions before but this isn't really my town, so "down past the cemetary" didn't really mean anything to me.
So I admit that I waited until about 12:03 and then called the church and asked for him, planning to just have the conversation on the phone rather than going to meet him.
Good thing I did. The Bishop was in a meeting, and didn't end up calling me back until his meeting was over (a few hours later) - so if I had actually gone down there, it would have been a freezing hour and a half walk and then two hours of waiting...
Phone conversation goes:
Me: Hello? Him: Troy? Me: Yes. Him: Bishop Sxxxxer returning your call. Me: Yes. I thought we had an appointment for 12 o'clock. Him: (Makes a noise) Me: (confused) Didn't we? Him: Well, I guess neither of us could make it. Me: Yeah, the reason for my call was actually to tell you I wouldn't be coming in. It's sort of -- a long walk. I didn't realize. I don't have a car. Him: Oh, I didn't know you didn't have a car. Well, we can work that out for you, maybe arrange to have someone come pick you up. When would be a good time to reschedule? Tuesday night? Me: I work Tuesdays. Him: Is Sunday the best option for you? Me: Well, yes it is.... Him: Great - how about next Sunday? Me: Well, okay, yes, I could do it next Sunday. Do you mind if I ask, though, what would be the purpose of this meeting? Him: Sure. I'd like to sit down with you, find out more about your circumstances, and help you set some goals. Me: What kind of goals? Him: Goals to help you get involved in the Church again. Me: Ah. Well. I must tell you that I have no interest in setting those kinds of goals. Him: Do you recognize that there is value in living the Principles? Me: Yes. The lifestyle encouraged by the Church is a great thing. It makes a lot of good common sense. And pretty much -- I pretty much follow many of the things... I don't smoke or drink for instance. I believe in those things. Him: Oh, okay, so you have a testimony, good. Me: I don't know if that means I have a testimony, really. I have to be honest with you, I'm not really a believer. I haven't been for a long time. I don't believe in the Church. I think they do some good things and I respect it, but I'm not a believer in any kind of religious sense. Him: Have you been reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it? Me: No. Him: I'd like to encourage you to do that. Me: I will consider myself encouraged. Him: You know, you're at an age where I'm sure you'd like to get married and start a family. Me: Well, yeah. Him: When you're looking for a partner, you have to become the kind of person you want to attract. And a lot of that has to do with values. You have to live the values that you seek in a wife. -- And also God. He helps us with that. If you get in touch with Him again, He will direct her to you. Me: Okay. Well, that makes sense to me if I take out the religious angle. Him: Does it? Me: I believe that you should be the kind of person you want to attract. Him: Well, the invitation is always open. Me: Thank you. And I want to tell you -- the main reason I agreed to meet with you, and wanted to talk to you, is to thank you for contacting me after my Mom called you. I know it meant a lot to her and I appreciated it as well. Thanks for doing that. Him: We'll be in touch. We'll check up on you. Me: All right... Him: I'll stop in and say hello, and we'll keep an eye out for you. Me: All right... Him: Call you sometime. Me: All right... Him: And you have my information if you ever want to get in touch, or reconsider coming back to Church. Me: Okay. Him: I'd like to encourage you again to read your Book of Mormon and pray about it. Me: Thank you. Him: Very good. We'll be in touch. Me: Bye. Him: Goodbye.
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Ha. Wow. I'm an active member with a testimony, and I don't think I would have been that polite You're a class act, TL.
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Yeah, I wasn't thinking very polite things, either towards that bishop. It just sounds so... manipulative. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I'm on the fence about the degree of manipulation involved. It also occurs to me that he may have felt "moved by the spirit" to say those things about finding a mate. So I'm not holding it against him, just in case. He did manage to key in on something that I want very badly, though. So he caught a vibe from a higher power to work that angle, or he's a pretty intuitive manipulator.
I have no official position on which.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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OKay... My story's a little different, but, I think I understand what you're saying... Actually, my story is a lot different. Just bear with me, I do have a point, I promise.
I come from a pentacostal/charasmatic Christian background.
I won't get into details, but I've pretty much come to accept that there *is* no right church/denomination (Which is okay. If my church were perfect, I wouldn't belong), everything, from 'prophetic words' to even how people use scripture is subjective, and is very heavily influenced from the most obscure of beliefs that people hold.
Church is a good thing (In my opinion), because you are coming together with people around you who believe in *God*, but you will have to get through all the stupid... Shall we call it, 'Stuff', unique to that denomination, pastor/deacon's board belief's.
That being said, I now attend a church that is 'Word of Faith', or 'Rhema' influenced. Pretty much, while we never would touch snakes or run in front of a car, if you just have enough 'faith', and do enough good deeds and acts of senseless beauty and kindness, you get extra brownie points in heaven, and you will be healed of every sickness, and be 'free' from the 'spirit' of poverty.
I probably don't need to point out that this is very far from my personal beliefs.
But, even though I do not always agree... Rather, even though I rarely agree with them, I have gotten to see past the 'stuff' and really come to love them as brothers and sisters and Christ. They are very dear friends.
But I'm always on edge when I'm around them. I'm always afraid to say 'I think most everything in which you believe is stupid, legalistic, wrong, and I'm not going to buy into it, so don't even try to talk to me about it!', but I always want to say it.
I *have* said it to some of them (In a polite paraphrase, of course).
Anyway, while I don't have a real answer, I can understand your relunctance.
You'll have to decide whether or not you think that being around this group of people, who believe in things in which you do not, and will not in the future, will have an influence in your life that is positive.
Next, you'll have to decide whether or not this positive incluence is worth 'being on your toes' for. Maybe you won't have to 'be on your toes'. Maybe you can just come out and say 'I like you guys, but I don't agree with any of this'.
It is weird, because, while I do not want to be stand-offish, I am certainly not going to compromise my beliefs, for the sake of being 'friendly', and I'm assuming that you would feel the same way.
Now, this is assuming you are considering maybe going once or twice, just to check it out, say hi to new people, ect. If you aren't, this entire post thus far is worth nil to you.
If you don't want to, I'm sure you could just stop by sometime after service lets out or something, just to say thanks.
Anyway, this is a long post, so I'll cut it short, because I feel myself beginning to ramble.
Posts: 438 | Registered: May 2006
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I'm a "active" member of the Church, and I believe it to be true, that is, the divinely authorized organization for the salvation of mankind. The problem comes about because I'm not a member of "mankind" in any of the applicable senses of that term. Not only that, but my purpose for being on this world has very little do do with the salvation of mankind, at least as usually understood.
It's true that I do occasionally act to save human beings, both in the physical and spiritual senses of that term. I don't mind doing that from time to time, but it's not really my line.
This makes being a member of the organization a little...complicated. At times...um, all the time. The thing is, I don't get much out of church. Never have, really. And there are times when I worry that I'm positively being a bad influence. Okay, change "worry" to "know" and "positively" to "absolutely". On the other hand, a lot of times I'm a good influence, too. I figure it's pretty much on the good side, but I understand that there are reasons that even a devout believer might want to stay home occasionally.
Acknowleging that your mother (and your new bishop) both love you isn't the same as saying that either of them necessarily know what is best. I'd give odds that you're human, and therefore would benefit greatly from attending church. But only if you do it because you believe it's the right thing to do. Your bishop probably was moved by the spirit, but that doesn't mean that it's some kind of irresistable prompting that overrides all his native beliefs and prejudices. Listening to the Spirit is hard work, and it's easy to put your own interpretation on even very clear promptings...I have a funny story about this. I'm not going to tell it here, though. Basically, it revolves around the distinction between "wait until morning" and "Okay, it's past midnight". At the time, I didn't think it was so funny, but in retrospect, I have to laugh.
Anyway, the point is that, while your mom and your bishop would probably naturally prefer that you skip some of the things that you're going to experience before you come back to church, that is just their own feelings getting in the way. Those aren't bad feelings, but you are the one living your life. I love you too, and I have no such feelings as those.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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I really like the community aspect, the support system, the activities, and so on that are associated with many churches. I just wish there weren't so much baggage attached.
I think it's awesome that worldwide communities exist such that one person can call someone they don't know, who will then make it a point to help someone. I've also seen cases where a church member has had their house burn down, and the congregation has all donated and essentially bought them a new house and new belongings.
That's awesome, and I think it would be very rewarding to belong to a community with so much closeness and good will. I just can't get past all the junk that comes with it. I wonder if for such a community to exist, there needs to be a strong set of rules and an unshakable shared belief system in place. Are there secular communities like this, that aren't secret societies?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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About secular societies where people help each other a lot: there's a nearby intentional community. I know some of the people and like them. They've found that the "stuff" associated with their organization (the politics) is just as noxious and annoying as the stuff associated with more traditional organizations.
The basis of an organization does affect its nature, but what _really_ affects its nature is its membership -- all human, except Survivor it seems ( ). So all our organizations seem to have the same pitfalls.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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You're a class act, TL.
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