posted
So I get off work this morning and check my phone like I do every morning hoping I missed a call from people that care about me. I usually haven't.
This morning I see a name that means a lot and gear up for a message that's always awkward but just as often fun. Through voice-message discomfort and filler words I hear that "I'm going to be busy for a while. So...phone calls...yeah...hope you're doing awesomely, bye."
Now background. I was a moderately immature 15 year old when we met at a religious summer camp. She was new and I was not, and we hung out. Playing chess mostly. As the years passed we became better friends (maintaining contact through sporadic phone calls and only seeing each other in the summer) and I became more immature. I did some dumb stuff and said some dumb things, but our relationship weathered the storm, my immaturity crested, and I joined the Air Force.
The phone calls continued through tech school in Monterey Ca (she was going to visit me there but I got orders), and San Angelo Tx over a two year period. Ended up getting stationed in GA and she drove down from PA to visit. It was strange, but fun (don't read too much into the distance, I think she visits people that live far away to prove the friendship).
She knows how I've felt about her for years, and I've known the "just friends" sign was being held up over my head for just as long. And then a week ago we get into a chat about her personal philosophy being based around entropy and I immediately tried to counter with things that don't break down over time. I tried. And then (I assume to help me out) she brought up "this", referring to our friendship, and I responded that I thought it was because I couldn't really see myself in the future without her in there somewhere, but I made sure to clarify with a "at least a phone call now and again" so as not to spook her. From out of nowhere she bursts out with the deadly "I don't know if this means we're supposed to end up together" followed up a paragraph or two later by a retreatful "just because I said it might doesn't mean it's really going to happen". I rushed in saying I completely understood and expect nothing. Because I really don't. Expect anything.
Back to the top. I don't buy people saying they're too busy for phone calls. Because no-one can't spare five minutes to share. So does this mean that she spooked herself, and has backed up so she doesn't have to deal with her perception of my perception? If so, what should I do? If not, what else could she possibly mean? I don't have any close friends left here, and I need some feedback so I don't do something stupid. Help?
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I'm confused. I didn't get that she was saying she was too busy for phone calls, in fact I thought the opposite until your last paragraph. Is that was you are saying at the end?
I thought she was basically saying "call me" and maybe "don't be upset if I don't initiate the phone calls for a little while." It could be that she's asking you to take the initiative. I'd agree that if you choose to do so you should do it very carefully because it could also be that she doesn't know what she wants and could turn on you.
What do you want? Is the possibility of a romantic relationship worth the risk to the friendship? Is the friendship strong enough to survive a foray into the romance arena? It's basically your call in regards to what you're willing to risk for what you perceive are likely rewards. Whatever you choose, though, good luck.
BTW, I did the Monterey/San Angelo route for the AF. I was a Korean Linguist for 6 years.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Karl's q makes sense to me. What do *you* want?
Could be she's spooked and perceives you as needy. Could be she's trying to find out if you have any energy to put into romance. I don't know. If you want a romance, I think you could pursue it -- possibly destroying the friendship, if it's very very fragile.
It does make me think of this principle: don't lean. People hate being leaned on by those they perceive as needy.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
The few, the proud, the Koreans. There wasn't a day that passed at DLI that I didn't appreciate not being one of them. I'm happy with my Cat 3.
Upon some in-depth review I have decided that KarlEd's take is probably more realistic than mine. Taking that into account, I'd like to tweak that which I require assistance with.
It's hard enough being friends that see each other once a year. Is it realistic (or selfish for that matter) for me to want us to be romantic when there's both distance and some resistance against it? This is way less specific than my original issue, but I think it would resolve a whole lot more.
Will B - I used to be pretty needy; that formed the bulk of what I refer to as "the blunder years". I'm better now.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Warning, the following makes giant leaps, and is basically what it would mean if I was in her position when I was around 24. I might be totally off base, I'm not working with much information, here, and everybody's different.
In my opinion, there is no way you're going to have a successful romantic relationship with this woman at this point in your life. She will probably try if you push it even gently, but she'd be doing it because she's know for years that you're interested and she's probably attracted to you, too, but had decided she didn't want to go there because of whatever you're talking around referring to your immaturity. She sees that straightening out, now, and feels like since that was why she was putting you off limits she now "really should" give it a try with you. But she doesn't really want to commit to a long distance relationship with someone she's only seen once in the last year who has done some really dumb stuff in the past. So she's vacillating, because she doesn't know what to do. And if you two try it now, it probably won't work.
How much longer are you going to be in the Air Force, and are you planning on moving home when you get out? If you are planning on getting out in the next couple of years, and not going career, here's what I would reccommend.
Call her at a time you're pretty sure you'll be leaving a message, so you can talk uninterrupted and so she can listen to it and think about it before having to respond. Say something along the lines of "Look, since we talked the other day I've been thinking, and I want to tell you that I don't want to try to change things between us right now. I don't have a lot of close friends out here, and I need your friendship. Plus it would be hard to try anything else when we see each other so seldom, and it wouldn't be fair to you. If we're both still single when I'm back, and you're interested, I'm not going to lie, I'd like to take you out and see if we can make something more of it. But I'm not asking you to wait for me, I'm just asking you to be my friend. Hope you're doing awesome, too. Bye."
Obviously you want your voice as casual as possible, particularly on the last line. If I'm right, this will do a better job than your assurances at the time of lifting the pressure off her that she's putting on herself, and leave things open for a possible relationship later. And, actually, make her a little more interested in dating when you're out. It also could totally backfire, and she could meet someone else next month and get married. *shrug* But that risk has always been there.
quote:It does make me think of this principle: don't lean. People hate being leaned on by those they perceive as needy.
I don't agree with this principle. I'd argue that the entire point of a friendship is to be leaned on, given that you are allowed to lean back too. The trouble arises when the leaning is very disproportionately one direction.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
My first impression upon reading the message was, Oh, dear, she's dating someone else and doesn't want them to know about each other.
But what do I know? I'm not very good at voicemail either. But I am a woman.
She could have just meant it was your turn to call her, as she's too busy to remember to try multiple times and just get voicemail.
Having heard her voice yourself, you would be the best judge. Is it possible to call and ask, hey, what did you mean by that?
Posts: 1379 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
You just have to learn that "Womanese" cannot be translated by men. Once you accept that, life is much easier.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Dead_Horse: My first impression upon reading the message was, Oh, dear, she's dating someone else and doesn't want them to know about each other.
I had a similar reaction, although mine was more like, "She's dating someone else and doesn't know how to tell you (am4)."
However, even if (maybe especially if) that is true, I still think ElJay's advice is excellent.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dead_Horse: My first impression upon reading the message was, Oh, dear, she's dating someone else and doesn't want them to know about each other.
I had a similar reaction, although mine was more like, "She's dating someone else and doesn't know how to tell you (am4)."
However, even if (maybe especially if) that is true, I still think ElJay's advice is excellent.
I thought the same thing. If I was going to say something like that...it'd be because I had something bad/rejecting to say and didn't have the guts to come out and say it. Especially if she knew that you weren't going to be able to answer the phone.
posted
Just call her back and say, "I got your last message, but I don't speak womanese. Could you translate. Speak slow because, like, I'm a guy."
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
ElJay is teh awesome. Dan_Raven is such a ... a ... man! LOL
I hadn't thought it on first read but once it was suggested, the "I'm seeing someone else" theory does make some sense.
By the way, each woman speaks their own version of Womanese... and it morphs as our lives progress. We can't always translate each other either!
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: By the way, each woman speaks their own version of Womanese... and it morphs as our lives progress. We can't always translate each other either!
That there is the problem! All women think differently, and all men think the same.
The problem is, no matter what dialect they speak, they all expect us to be able to read their minds. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: By the way, each woman speaks their own version of Womanese... and it morphs as our lives progress. We can't always translate each other either!
That there is the problem! All women think differently, and all men think the same.
The problem is, no matter what dialect they speak, they all expect us to be able to read their minds.
I don't expect him to read my mind, but I think if I say, "I've just been feeling so unsexy lately" that that is the equivalent of dropping a HELLO MAKE ME FEEL IRRESISTABLE anvil on his head.
posted
Yeah, if I were a man, I'd translate that as "I'm not in the mood, leave me the heck alone." Depending on tone and manner, of course.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Tone and manner (and a working knowledge of one's partner's way of expressing herself) are everything with a comment like that, but yeah, with nothing else to go on I'd interpret that the same way ElJay would.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I read something in a linguistics class about male and female communication. Now I know these are not absolutes and Hatrack tends to be populated by a lot of exceptions to rules so don't presume I'm trying to say ALL guys and girls are like this.
But, the point was - as a relationship progresses, women expect that men will understand them better and know what they need without being told explicitly. But men, who are used to being blunt with their close guy friends, expect that as a relationship progresses, the two parties should be comfortable enough with each other to just say what they want up front.
So on one hand, she's all "He should be able to anticipate my needs without me telling him outright." Whereas he's all "She should know me well enough by now to just come out and say exactly what she wants."
So each is expecting the exact opposite thing from the other one. It's a possible theory on why many relationships break down over time. I'm sure this isn't a universal, but it was definitely true in my marriage, and one of the reasons we hit a rocky spot around year 10. We worked through it and now look back and laugh on it. (And just as an aside, tomorrow is my 15th anniversary!)
I found our class discussion on this funny, because so many of the guys were like "Yeah, why can't you just say what you want?" And the girls were arguing back "Why can't you understand that, to quote pH:
quote:if I say, "I've just been feeling so unsexy lately" that that is the equivalent of dropping a HELLO MAKE ME FEEL IRRESISTABLE anvil on [your] head.
posted
Well then, I say drop the anvil, or become a lesbian. 'Cause the woman will notice what you mean under what you say.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Yeah, if I were a man, I'd translate that as "I'm not in the mood, leave me the heck alone." Depending on tone and manner, of course.
Same.
I find that most socially-conscious men tend to interpret everything as conservatively as possible, so as to avoid acting on a false-positive. Society has emphasized rape, harassment, abuse and general insensitivity to the point that I almost always need a fairly straightforward response in order to act on most anything, especially if it's sexual.
Edit to change a word that suggested a viewpoint I do not hold.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: And then a week ago we get into a chat about her personal philosophy being based around entropy and I immediately tried to counter with things that don't break down over time. I tried.
I generally follow the maxim that if I find myself trying to convince someone else to like me (or to stay friends), there is something else usually going on underneath the surface.
From what you wrote in the original post, it sounds like her theorizing on entropy sparked you to disagree with her (in the process of showing her that she was wrong?), which sparked her to come back with an argument about your relationship with her going kaput (showing you that you were the wrong one?). Sounds like it isn't a smooth mix. [I think one good approach might be to take her up on going cold turkey with the two of you, and then seeing how you feel about it in 1 month. Enough time for perspective.]
But, of course, this is an outside opinion from a very limited perspective.
---
PS: ElJay, that's just how I would interpret it, too.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Yeah, if I were a man, I'd translate that as "I'm not in the mood, leave me the heck alone." Depending on tone and manner, of course.
Same.
I find that most socially-conscious men tend to interpret everything as conservatively as possible, so as to avoid acting on a false-positive. Society has emphasized rape, harassment, abuse and general insensitivity to the point that I almost always need a fairly straightforward response in order to act on most anything, especially if it's sexual.
Edit to change a word that suggested a viewpoint I do not hold.
This is true. And it's gotta be a very tough balancing act for men to stay in between the "You only care about the sex" and "You don't find me sexually attractive" lines.
Edit to add: In that example, I actually was saying that on the phone. To talk about why I was acting weird after my wisdom teeth surgery.
posted
Just for the record, pH, you had every right to be acting weird after your wisdom teeth surgery. I'm still having nightmares about it.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Just for the record, pH, you had every right to be acting weird after your wisdom teeth surgery. I'm still having nightmares about it.
I know. But he didn't understand that even though my face was no longer swollen up like a football, I still felt gross. ...and like a football. A moldy football.
quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: And then a week ago we get into a chat about her personal philosophy being based around entropy and I immediately tried to counter with things that don't break down over time. I tried.
I generally follow the maxim that if I find myself trying to convince someone else to like me (or to stay friends), there is something else usually going on underneath the surface.
From what you wrote in the original post, it sounds like her theorizing on entropy sparked you to disagree with her (in the process of showing her that she was wrong?), which sparked her to come back with an argument about your relationship with her going kaput (showing you that you were the wrong one?). Sounds like it isn't a smooth mix. [I think one good approach might be to take her up on going cold turkey with the two of you, and then seeing how you feel about it in 1 month. Enough time for perspective.]
But, of course, this is an outside opinion from a very limited perspective.
---
PS: ElJay, that's just how I would interpret it, too.
There's no other guy. She's never been shy about that kind of stuff before. Girls are evil.
I just thought the whole entropy thing was depressing, and since she's been depressed lately, I thought it would be useful to show her that not everything in her life was going to break down. She used our relationship as an example of something that hasn't eroded, and we got into the conversation about our future after she asked me why I thought that was. She said she didn't know if that meant we were supposed to end up together, we floated back to current events, and the chat ended.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Never waste time trying to anthropomorphise the weather or why women do what they do and say what they say. Just deal with the symptoms and carry on. In general the reason a woman gives you is the one she seized on to justify what she feels, what makes a woman feel as she does is as much a mystery to her as it is to you.
If you want to make her come to you ignore her, deny her your attention and she will come looking for it with a 'change of feeling' and when she comes looking make her feel significant and together and then continue to do so sparingly. She will not be able to get enough of you or do enough for you if you make that feeling continuous in your presence but hard to come by.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
See, Sax, not all of us play that game. In fact, that game pisses me off to no end. The most likely result is something along "Fine, you jerk, I'm not going to put any more effort into this than you are. Call me when you've grown up."
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Never waste time trying to anthropomorphise the weather or why women do what they do and say what they say. Just deal with the symptoms and carry on. In general the reason a woman gives you is the one she seized on to justify what she feels, what makes a woman feel as she does is as much a mystery to her as it is to you.
If you want to make her come to you ignore her, deny her your attention and she will come looking for it with a 'change of feeling' and when she comes looking make her feel significant and together and then continue to do so sparingly. She will not be able to get enough of you or do enough for you if you make that feeling continuous in your presence but hard to come by.
Listen to this advice, airman. It is good advice. Women, well they just arent smart enough to know what they're thinking when they're thinking it. They are fluffy, emotional creatures to whom the concept of reason and forthrightness is foreign. Because of this, they need to be manipulated into doing what is good for them. They secretly know this, and of course they want it. They just deny it to keep you on your toes. So yes, it's time to get sneaky and manipulative with this woman. She is obviously begging you to tell her what to think, so it's time you took her up on this invitation. After all, there are few things in this world women like more than a sneaky, manipulative caveman. It's very sexy.
quote:Originally posted by pH: I know. But he didn't understand that even though my face was no longer swollen up like a football, I still felt gross. ...and like a football. A moldy football.
-pH
Now, see, that makes no sense either. You feel like a football....guys love football. Posts: 349 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I know. But he didn't understand that even though my face was no longer swollen up like a football, I still felt gross. ...and like a football. A moldy football.
-pH
Now, see, that makes no sense either. You feel like a football....guys love football.
posted
Remember it is not about telling her what to do or think it about rewarding her with attention when she acts the way you want. An intermediate reward system creates the greatest amount anticipation and devotion.
There is nothing uniquely female about being a rationalizing creature instead of a rational one, males are the same way but if you want to create devotion in a male then my experience is strictly theoretical.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
My needs are pretty simple, most of the time.
Tell me if something is bugging you. I refuse to read minds. Listen when I tell you something is (or is not) bugging me. I don't expect you to read my mind, either. You get one chance. If I ask "Are you sure," and you answer "yes," I'll be taking you at your word. Understand that if I have a migraine or am overwhelmed, that it's not me talking. I will try to notify you when this is happening. Be my friend. And most importantly, do NOT laugh at me if I manage to suck a tapioca pearl up the back of my nose. After the pain subsides, you are welcome to laugh, but not before.
And in all that, I see none of Sax's system. Back to the drawing board.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Any of those things could be the attention payment that you use, but you should never become too accessible, too familiar. Remember when you feel familiar to her your attention no longer has the same value. If you want to be special catch her by surprise, make her wonder, and remain a mystery.
You are at a disadvantage already because she considers you a known quantity, you will have to shake yourself up first if you want to get anywhere. It is good that you have been away from her for some time.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Remember it is not about telling her what to do or think it about rewarding her with attention when she acts the way you want. An intermediate reward system creates the greatest amount anticipation and devotion.
Silly me. You're right. See, now I think Pavlov was onto this. I'm pretty sure that he was about to extend his experiments from just dogs to include women, but then he died. A shame really. We could have learned so much about the primitive workings of the female brain from that man.
So, let me get this straight, for airmans sake. Compliments, like treats, should be doled out sparingly lest the woman become too accustomed to them and start taking them for granted. Full control of the woman comes only after need has been established and compliments have become the stimuli needed to do your bidding. Eventually, you will get to the point where you need only ring a bell and point to the table and she will have your supper on it in a jiffy. After this point a simple pat on the head should be sufficent. No need to over stimulate the little lady with effusive praise. She will appreciate you more the less you give her.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Any of those things could be the attention payment that you use, but you should never become too accessible, too familiar. Remember when you feel familiar to her your attention no longer has the same value. If you want to be special catch her by surprise, make her wonder, and remain a mystery.
You are at a disadvantage already because she considers you a known quantity, you will have to shake yourself up first if you want to get anywhere. It is good that you have been away from her for some time.
You must become a STEALTHY NINJA, young airman. You are a breeze, coming upon the object of your affection in the night, invisible too all, felt by none. You are a cat, stealthily padding upon soft paws, attacking the object of your affection ankles and then RUNNING AWAY before she even knows you are there. You are an owl, silent and deadly, gliding on velvet wings and STRIKING LIKE A TIGER, then gliding away, marked only by a fading shriek of terror. You are a silent black shadow, always at the object of your affection heels, seen in a glance and then GONE WITH THE SUN!
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Actually B. F. Skinner did the work and used it on everyone from his children to his colleagues.
Compliments are a rudimentary form of attention, noticing things and being focused on just her when you are with her is the key.
It is a general outline, there is ample room for any technique that you might like and be suited for. If you are musical use music, if you are a painter do a picture.
Flowers every day is only noticed when the flowers stop. If this steps on toes then sorry, but the advice is practical not so much romantic, romance is what happens inside the box you design.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Remember there is something silly about saying, 'I want this more then anything in the world,' and then saying 'but not that way.' Your attention is yours to spend, how you spend it is up to you, there is nothing unethical about it any more then choosing to get the most for your money when you spend it, it is all that you have. Get the most you can with it, save it up for big purchases don't dribble it away.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Flowers every day is only noticed when the flowers stop. If this steps on toes then sorry, but the advice is practical not so much romantic, romance is what happens inside the box you design.
That is completely untrue. And yeah, like others have said, I'm the type of person who just won't waste time on someone who plays the stupid attention game. There IS a middle ground between barnacle puppy dog and game-playing a-hole.
posted
foundling - Being snarky isn't all that constructive. Do you have any suggestions you think'll work better than General Sax's? 'Cause I can see how his suggestions could offend, but at least he's trying to help.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
You're right airman, being snarky isnt so much constructive as it is fun. I've actually been meaning to come in here and offer some relatively sage advice, but I just keep getting sidetracked. And in the process, ignoring the point of this thread. Sorry 'bout that.
As far as advice, what I intended to say was actually said better by Eljay and KarlEd. I would advice figuring out in your own head exactly what you wanted to happen with this relationship without taking anything else into account first. You cant really DO much of anything till you get her side of the story, but you CAN figure out your own motivations before you talk to her. Then I'd probably do what Eljay said. The only thing I would add is to be honest throughout. Even if it gets you into trouble. You dont want to be with someone who you have to change yourself for. So be upfront and open about what you really feel. Contrary to "popular" opinion, women who are worth their weight in gold really DO prefer honesty in their romantic partner.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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