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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Nutrition and Health: Explaining the works of Dr. Price (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Nutrition and Health: Explaining the works of Dr. Price
BannaOj
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please note the "if there was higher fat there were excercise compensations" specifically with regards to the Eskimos. The amount of engergy expended in daily metabolism in a cold climate is staggering.

AJ
(and refining what I said previously slightly, I'd prioritize all the amino acids, adequate calorie content, and excercise higher than the fat and fiber bit... although I have wondered if Eskimos were chronically constipated)

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beverly
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If I slaughter my own animals for meat, I have been thinking about what I will do with the organ meat. I don't know yet. Anyone know if organ meat is what sausage and the like is made out of?
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Adam_S
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I've sampled raw calf liver (I was cooking some and my Italian roomate suggested I try it since he liked it and it was a treat for him when he was growing up (in NYC fwiw)) and it's much milder than cooked liver, with a very almost creamy texture. I liked it my first taste but I've really no desire to eat it often. but that's the only raw organ meat I've tried.

I only have a desire to eat liver about once every month or two months, other than that I try to limit my flour and sugar intake where I can but I don't obsess about diet. I'm healthy, perfect teeth and lots of energy.

I think we have an organ phobia because we associate eating meat with the texture of muscle fiber, organs like liver and kidneys and sweetbreads have textures way different from your expectations (or at least mine the first time I tried liver). And because the most eaten organs, the liver and kidneys, are filters for toxins, so they are more likely to sicken you if the animal itself was ill. My grandpa would always carefully examine the liver of any wild game and if he found anything out of sorts he would discard the entire animal. He also refused to eat liver from wild game but would relish it from the chickens and cattle he raised himself.

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Adam_S
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beverly, if it's cattle grind the heart up into the hamburger, you'll probably be making enough hamburger that no one will ever notice the difference.

For what its worth, none of the groups price met were exclusively raw eaters, all cooked their food some of the time iirc. And that applies to fruits, vegetables, grains, nutes, legumes and proteins. Only wacky raw foodies of today try to eat everything raw all the time.

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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Yeah, and I eat babies, too, adam.

Seriously, what about the pictures of the kid with Down's Syndrome in Chapter 19? What about the x-rays of that boy's palate? You don't have to be informed to see big differences in those pics.

Well, what about 'em? One data point proves nothing except the ability of Price to draw conclusions from way too little data.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
Anyone know if organ meat is what sausage and the like is made out of?

They can be. Sausages can be made from virtually any cut, especially if you add enough spices and other ingredients.
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El JT de Spang
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KoM, you can forget about having that question answered. Unless you'll accept, "Ch. 19, blah blah blah. . . Pottenger, blah blah blah" as an answer.

steven, I bet you're a heckuva dodgeball player. And I gotta say that I love CT all the more for the piccolo comment, whether or not that's a true story.

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just_me
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So, how many pages before we all realize that steven is never going to commit to a reasonable discussion on this issue since he is simply too emotionally attached to do so? He is apparently unable to apply analytic thought to this matter and it seems like his best answer to every point made by anyone is essentially [Taunt] , [Cry] or [Mad] .

I think we should all take a page from Bob's book and refuse to engage further until steven agrees to some basic ground rules - including promising to respond respectfully instead of like a jerk.

but that's just the $.02 of a pseudo-lurker who is interested in this topic but just feels like [Wall Bash] trying to read this thread.

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theCrowsWife
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quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
If I slaughter my own animals for meat, I have been thinking about what I will do with the organ meat. I don't know yet. Anyone know if organ meat is what sausage and the like is made out of?

I'm pretty certain that you can use anything edible other than the liver in making stock, so that's an option if want to get some of the nutrients from the organs without actually eating them. The liver will give the stock an off flavor, so don't use it there. If there are crayfish in your area, the organs make excellent bait in a crayfish trap. Cats and dogs would likely enjoy eating some of it. You can clean the intestines out to use for sausage casings, as long as you have a meat grinder/sausage stuffer. And of course, you can bury it to help improve your land.

--Mel

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Kwea
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steven, pardon me if I like to offer respect to people I am discussing things with.


I would have read that book, and would have looking forward to it.

listened to you talk about your nutritional values had you any social skills at all. Since you don't, I won't bother.

Too bad....believe it or not I was actually looking forward to it.


If I have to choose straight teeth and a working brain, I choose a working brain every time. The funny thing is according to the "rigorous" methods utilized by Dr. Price, I could now claim that eating raw liver causes mental decay and loss of social skills, and you would be my test subject. Since I would be allowed to disregard any and all confounding factors that conflict with my working hypothesis ( that steven is a moron, and can't be trusted), and I am allowed to cherry pick my subjects/topics, I have it made.


Not that I needed to do either.....I haven't FOUND anything that conflicts with my theory, or found any data to refute it.

(Despite actually looking for it, something that Price didn't bother to do.)


My final contribution, at least for now, will be to quote everything steven says from this point on, so when we link back to this conversation in the future (and you know we will, because steven can't help brining this crap up again, being mentally deficient and all [Wink] ) we will still have his actual comments here.


Man, I MAY be wrong in my conclusions...you probably were an idiot all along regardless of diet.... Who else is stupid enough to think people wouldn't use the quotes on their comments when the entire stated purpose of this thread was to prevent continued thread deletion?

[Dont Know]

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Bob, are we done yet? Clearly we've strayed from the main topic.

As far as the teeth thing goes, Price noted, as well as Pottenger, that a better diet tended to cause bone structure to be more similar among members of the same race/family.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Price found crookedness of teeth and narrowed ribcages among people of all ages, and his pictures prove it. What else are you looking for? Crooked teeth are abnormal at any age.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
OK, CT, WHICH AGE is it that my TEETH are supposed to be CROOKED?


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Bob, if you lecture me again on copyright issues.....


You might want to read the chapters in this order: chapters 18, then 15, then 17, then 19, then 16.

Please say no more on this thread until you've done that reading.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Karl, the idea that anyone here has anything to teach me about nutrition is laughable.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
No, Banna, more than any hatracker. I suppose I could be wrong.

Noemon, you are correct, at least in most cases.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Adam, why don't you read page 3 of that thread that I linked? Dagonee's behavior is just a sample of how Bob and others also acted in other threads.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Banna, I've studied nutrition and herbology for years, both Chinese and western. mainly Chinese, but I also am fairly widely read on nutrition.


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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
So in other words, Olive, you don't have the time to read the book.


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rivka
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Um, Kwea?

Whatcha doin'?

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:


My final contribution, at least for now, will be to quote everything steven says from this point on, so when we link back to this conversation in the future (and you know we will, because steven can't help brining this crap up again, being mentally deficient and all [Wink] ) we will still have his actual comments here.



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rivka
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*blink* How did I miss that?

Thanks, oh immolated one.

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Kwea
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What I said I was doing....making sure we have copies of statements that would probably otherwise be deleted. [Smile]


( I was making a point, but wanted to make sure even he got it.)

[Wink]

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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You are welcome, oh,

...um

...Jewish one?

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rivka
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*snerk*

Just rivka is fine. [Wink]

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
*snerk*

Just rivka is fine. [Wink]

But it seems so inadequate following "O immolated one".

What if we used "O ensnaring one".

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ClaudiaTherese
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I do want the piccolo issue in context, though I'm fine with dropping it afterward. There is plenty of conversation moving right along without me, but given that this has been mentioned more than once now, I'll crosspost from elsewhere.

I haven't ever cross-posted before that I recall, and I don't expect to again.

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ClaudiaTherese
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A post on steven, before I reread the long-ago thread (with the piccolo comment), but after I read that steven had brought it up again:

---------------

The thing is, I like steven and respect him for making what was to me a very clear and forthright attempt to respond to jabs at the beginning of a recent thread in a way that was calm, non-provocative, and decidedly more clear-headed than I would have. Really, he was being goaded and eventually gave in, but that was after a lot of goading.

I also respect his passion and his expressed (and clearly heartfelt) desire to impart good into the world, to have something to share with others. I think he ended up deleting the post which brought this home to me -- that he was passionate about having something important and meaningful to share.

My encouragement to him to find something to share (be it music, writing, what have you) was in direct response to that. I did not say, "Gee, you loser, why don't you just go play a piccolo?" Instead, I had asked him about his other passions and talents and suggested that since the medical thing wasn't working out (people back then, as now, were generally hostile to him), that a different passion might be his way to shine.

I don't, won't, and can't condone or encourage inaccurate or misleading science, especially not where medicine is concerned. It would be like an engineer saying, "oh, well, they might have gotten that bridge built right just on chance. It could happen." There are reasons why good science and good evidence-based practices are crucial to the practice of medicine, not the least of which because very well-meaning and well-intentioned people who had seen a lot of cases still got it wrong -- for example, most professionals were sure that hormone replacement therapy would lower cardiovascular risk. They had good reason to believe so. In fact, it does, when looked at over a long period of time. The problem is that early on, the risk of heart attack and stroke is greatly elevated -- and that is not something that could be determined without a large, well-controlled trial to assess the relative risks.

Thousands of individual cases seen by any given practitioner, well-documented and addressed with consideration and thoughtfulness. But because it was not done in a systematic way, they did not see the problem. The eyes of those that think they know can be the most blind. Thus, the null hypothesis.

Reality must be allowed to resist our preconceptions. The scientific method sets up the hypothesis to encourage refutation in order to give the real world that explicit opportunity to sit up, grab us by the throat, and set us straight. But when you don't set things up to find what you don't expect to find, then you will only see what you expect to see. That's what Price may have seen, and that is certainly what many others have done.

That's dangerous. That isn't a problem when you aren't talking about life and death, health-related issues, but it is an insumountable problem when you are making recommendations to other people that carry the veneer of science but do not hold to its stringent requirements, especially in the field of medicine. It is immoral to do that, regardless of how much we may want to give something valuable to other people. There are other things of value to give if one is unwilling or unable to do science. Just don't call it science.

It is worse to look like science but not be science than to look like faith, or hope, or inspiration, or any of a tone of other wonderful and admirable things, which are not science but are still valuable. In fact, to call upon the veneer of scientific respectability when it does not apply speaks ill of the topic's ability to stand on its own. It also speaks (to me) of a willingness to risk things that should not be risked in order for a different agenda. That isn't something I can in good conscience ignore, not when it involves medical issues.

---

Edited to add: So, given exhaustive rounds of multiple people trying to get across what the scientific method is, why it was important, and why the lack of it was a problem for claiming that Price had established anything conclusions that were meaningful from a scientific standpoint -- and given a very sincere and gut-wrenching post about his desire to share something valuable with others, a post that still resonates with me, even if long-ago deleted -- I started asking steven about other passions and talents. Other things he was good at, that he (and not I -- goodness knows, both my talents and training are highly limited, and the range of what I have to offer is quite paltry) might find more success in sharing with people at this place, Hatrack, which he kept being drawn back to.

It wasn't a slight. It was an attempt to get to know him and, as I would for any friend, make his and my world better. I can certainly understand that it did feel like a brush-off, and I can see why. I'm sorry for that.

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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*claps*
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Kwea
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quote:
Reality must be allowed to resist our preconceptions.
I love this line. [Smile]

[Kiss]

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ClaudiaTherese
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And then after reading the thread in question, a reaction with the recap:

-----------------

My first post on the topic was brusque and blunt. I don't think I meant it that way, but it wasn't until the later posts that I got across what I was thinking. That's unfortunate -- it should have been better done.
quote:

Originally posted by me:
quote:

[near the end of one of many long threads about Price]
Originally posted by steven:
www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/native_americans.html
mentions the unusual recovery abilities of Native Americans on their traditional diet. It's not just a thicker skull that's at issue here.
There are plenty of anecdotal cases in Price's work that talk about how people healed from cavities, diabetes, and scores of other diseases when they went back to their traditional diets.

Regarding the regression in diabetes upon return to a more traditional diet, my understanding is that this is thought by physicians specializing in this area to be secondary to issues of change in glycemic loading, not trace minerals.

Why should I accept Price's noted correlation as a causation, even were I to buy that such a correlation exists? A better argument for a different factor (glycemic load) can and has been made, and a more convincing mechanism has been posed.


----------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: steven, I admire your passion. I just don't think the information Price presents is convincing at all.

Had you thought about specializing in information on something you could be an expert on? Medical information is tricky, and there are many physicians, nurses, and other health care professionals here. It makes for a tough audience.

In contrast, you could become the Hatrack expert on the piccolo, or the collection of fishing net weights, or on a particular esoteric language, or the history of the Spanish-American war.

[snipped out interventing chatter with multiple people]
quote:

Originally posted by steven:
I'm done with this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by me:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I only say it because of three things:

1. White powder/microcluster rhodium and iridium are the two elements left when everything else has been removed from brain matter.

This is true of anything in the brain. For example, take away everything else but water, and only water is left behind. That is sort of like a tautology, and it doesn't establish anything.
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
My understanding is that they are the only two microcluster elements present in brain tissue.

Why do you accept this claim, in particular? On what convincing documentation do you base your belief that these are "the only two microcluster elements present in brain tissue?"
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
2. The ancient alchemists were making compounds that assay as microcluster minerals, mainly rhodium, iridium, and gold. They claimed that the conpounds they made lengthened life and improved health.

And why do you accept this claim, in particular? On what convincing documentation do you base your belief that "the ancient alchemists were making compounds that assay as microcluster minerals, mainly rhodium, iridium, and gold?"
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Brain-to-body size ratio is the best indicator of aging in mammals.

What reason do you have to believe this? (Honest question.)
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
All three of those things together say to me that the most important component of food is the microcluster rhodium and iridium, followed by other trace minerals.

I don't see the link. The steps of this reasoning
are not obvious, even if one were to accept the premises.

steven, I have no desire to harry you here. I want you to enjoy Hatrack, and I think you have been very passionate and respectful in trying to discuss this. (That is so cool.)

I just don't think claims about truths of medical matters are going to be a pleasant way to spend your time here. The audience is too tough, and the consequences of disseminating misinformation can be too dire -- thus, people will push you when you say something that they believe is wrong and harmful.

Do you have other interests, other areas of expertise? Anything besides medical matters (raw foods, shellfish and organ tissue, etc) tickle your fancy? History, music, other arts, sports, literature?

quote:
Originally posted by me:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I'm done with this thread.

I respect that. My last post above was written before I read this.

steven, I hope you find a ton of fun and interesting stuff to talk about here. I would hate to lose you as a Hatracker.

Take care.

So I did suggest becoming the Hatrack expert on the piccolo as one of a series of possibilities. Not because being a musician isn't hard work, or doesn't require smarts, or anything of the sort, but because it didn't require using the scientific method and -- although we had drummers and flute players and guitarists and pianists -- it could be his area of specialty alone. Or a certain element of history, or literature, or a given craft, or something else that was not science. Especially not medicine, where being unscientific is (I think, and I think for good reason) is irresponsible and dangerous.
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:
Reality must be allowed to resist our preconceptions.
I love this line. [Smile]

[Kiss]

[Smile]

My spouse's line, and one which resonates with me, too.

(Thanks, Kwea and FToaS.)

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The Rabbit
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quote:
It is worse to look like science but not be science than to look like faith, or hope, or inspiration, or any of a tone of other wonderful and admirable things, which are not science but are still valuable. In fact, to call upon the veneer of scientific respectability when it does not apply speaks ill of the topic's ability to stand on its own. It also speaks (to me) of a willingness to risk things that should not be risked in order for a different agenda. That isn't something I can in good conscience ignore, not when it involves medical issues.
[Hail]

My only addition would be to say that this is equally relevant to any issue that influences human well being and not just medicine.

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TheGrimace
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/Joins in the applause for CT while happily dining on some applesauce
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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by TheGrimace:
/Joins in the applause for CT while happily dining on some applesauce

[ROFL]
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ClaudiaTherese
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Wait, thanks. I really do appreciate it.

But this thread isn't and shouldn't be about me (lovely though the praise is, coming few and far between in my life these days [Wink] ), and I'm afraid that would be inflammatory.

I just wanted to put it into context, then let it go. I wish I'd said things differently, but I wish a lot of things that just aren't so. I didn't -- and do not -- think that steven is not sharp, bright, highly motivated, passionate, and sincere.

Enough. [Smile]

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Kwea
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He can be passionate.
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BlackBlade
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I'm disappointed that this thread failed in its intent, and that it took 4 pages for it to do so.
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Kwea
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It failed on the first, but I am stubborn. [Wink]
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Adam, have you ever heard of Dr. Francis Pottenger? I also take it you didn't bother to note the studies on farm animals, particularly the ones on hogs, that Price summarizes, albeit briefly.

Here is the basic thrust: Hogs without access to sufficient feed were able to reproduce, but their offspring were clearly defective, or even born dead. All offspring, pretty much the same. The same goes for other animal studies, including Price's own work with rats. The differences in different people's bone structure quality and crookedness of teeth on the same diet is not as great as you think it is. Plenty of animal studies indicate differently.


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Kwea
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RERAILING THIS THREAD IN 3....2.....1......


::beep::


OK, other than steven, who can't delete THIS thread, who would like to discuss this? If I can get a few people who would we can try it again, without steven and his attitude.


I think I might read this book DESPITE him, not because of its current scientific value, but as a case study of how science has evolved. I like things like that. [Smile]

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Just rivka is fine. [Wink]

But it seems so inadequate following "O immolated one".

What if we used "O ensnaring one".

Then you would get one of these: O_o

Because I failed to get the reference. Wikipedia helped . . . except I don't believe it is correct. While I have heard many attempts to translate the name (and my preference is for "beautiful," natch [Wink] ), I have yet to come across any which made much sense. There simply is no "root" which corresponds to רבק.

And hey, I'm not the one who chose a multi-word SN which begs for elaborate short versions. [Big Grin]

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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*wonders who rivka is talking about*
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rivka
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I would identify said poster, but "FToaS" lacks all je ne sais quoi, and other appellations have been objected to. [Wink]
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beverly
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Here's kind of a random thought relating to Price's studies: I remember when reading the book that I thought it odd that the straightness of teeth could be strongly correlated to health. It was a new idea, and I tend to approach new ideas with skepticism.

One of the things that made me more sympathetic to Price's reports was the idea that he started out to prove a hypothesis that he was emotionally attached to: that the diet of these more primitive people was inferior, and was "converted" by what he found. I guess those kinds of conversion stories tend to catch my attention. [Smile]

The concept that whole, unprocessed food is better for you than refined foods is not a new claim and has been scientifically supported. The idea that raw food is better for you than cooked food, IIRC, is scientifically supported as well. Honestly, I don't remember enough and don't really understand if Price ever said what exactly it was that would be the link between diet and straight teeth. Was it calcium absorption? I dunno. Maybe he never figured that out and it was all a correlation thing with causality never being shown.

Recently with this topic being brought back up, I began thinking how the things we tend to find beautiful are things that tend to be signs of good health, youth, and vigor. In otherwords, there seem to be practical explainations for much of what we find asthetically pleasing in human appearance. Well, teeth seem to be a very important part of beauty, enough so that straightening them is an extremely common cosmetic proceedure, and not cheap either. Most of us believe that clear skin is a sign of good health and that a good diet can clear up our complexion even if we don't know exactly what parts of "eating right" will do it. Why would it be such a leap for straight teeth to be a sign of eating right as well?

So, in otherwords, I think it is within the realm of possibility. I do not know if it is true, and it is not a particularly important part of what changed my attitudes towards food. But I found it compelling nonetheless.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I guess those kinds of conversion stories tend to catch my attention.
You know what's funny? They always make me incredibly suspicious. Whenever I hear that someone has "converted" to one way of thinking after setting out to prove the opposite, I always discover that they were lazy or incomplete in their original attempt.

BTW, I have almost perfectly straight teeth. Do I eat right?

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
The idea that raw food is better for you than cooked food, IIRC, is scientifically supported as well.

For fruits and vegetables, perhaps. (And for some specific vegetables, like eggplant, definitely not.) For meat, eggs, and other frequently bacterially-contaminated items? I don't think so. Not unless we are comparing "raw" with "cooked so long it has turned to mush."
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ElJay
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I believe it also has more to do with the cooking method than the fact that something's cooked. If you boil vegetables in water and throw away the water, a lot of the nutrients leach out into the water and get tossed. If you steam the vegetables or lightly saute them in a little of a "healthy" oil, I don't believe there's much nutritional difference between cooked and raw. If you char something, it can introduce possible carcinogens. But cooking some things (I believe tomatos is one) allows your body to more easily absorb the nutrients, and process them more efficiently.

Since cooking used to involve a lot of boiling and frying, yes, raw is usually a better choice. But I don't believe it's been shown that it's because it's raw so much as because it doesn't add (fat from frying) or subtract things from the food.

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beverly
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quote:
For meat, eggs, and other frequently bacterially-contaminated items? I don't think so.
Cooking kills the harmful microbes, but it also destroys beneficial microbes and nutrients. (Many nutrients are quite delicate, making freshness important as well.) This is part of why I believe in drinking unpasteurized milk and drinking kefir. Of course, the source from which the milk comes (healthy, grass-fed cow) is important. And there is always going to be risk involved. The recent spinach e coli tragedy comes to mind. We all take a risk whenever we eat *any* raw food.

Honest question, I've always wondered why it is commonly considered OK to eat sushi and rare steak, but raw meat in general is shunned?

Oh, and I used to always feel guilty that I snitched cookie dough with raw egg in it. I don't anymore. [Smile]

quote:
But cooking some things (I believe tomatos is one) allows your body to more easily absorb the nutrients, and process them more efficiently.
I have heard this as well. I was thinking of that just the other day when I cooked my broccoli to *perfection.* It was just soft, and so bright green! The color is even brighter than when it is raw. Go past that point, though, and the color goes dark. I don't know for sure if color is an indicator of nutrient content, but it sure seems to be.

But IIRC, there is still ample evidence of even mild heat harming the nutrition of food. Vitamin C comes to mind as an easy one.

[ December 08, 2006, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]

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BannaOj
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my understanding is that "blue" is a steak beyond rare. Sushi I know depends on having very fresh fish. I believe most resturaunts that will acutally serve a true "rare" or "blue" usually get their raw meat irradiated, in one of several ways (often UV based) before cooking.

AJ

Also, were you aware that many fruit juices are pastuerized also?

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