quote:Originally posted by pH: Here are just a few of the racial generalizations you've made:
quote:Many white people do not bother to try to understand other people's cultures, but blacks, Asian Americans, Latinos, Native Americans and other non-whites cannot afford this, they have to learn to navagate through the primarily white world.
quote:this topic is about white people who do this
quote:There doesn't seem to be the same WEIGHT to being white like there is to being black
quote:white on non-white racism is a bit worse
Hey, you wanna talk about negative stereotypes against whites? Isn't there a movie called White Men Can't Jump? What about the idea that white people can't dance? That white people are worse at basketball? That white people are afraid people who aren't white?
What bothers me is that you're focusing on WHITE PEOPLE who do this and not PEOPLE. PEOPLE from any race can be racist, and focusing on it like it's a big problem for whites and not for anyone else is inherently racist.
-pH
It is a big problem for everyone, but this is the historical weight...
I give up. I hate race, I don't understand why it exists... or why it even matters or why so much is attached to skin color and what country a person comes from and how these stupid stereotypes will just stick to things for centuries. I don't understand why it's still like that even today...
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Syn, Irish people used to not be able to get jobs in the States. And hey, people in this country think it's perfectly cool to mock the French. There's PLENTY of historical weight to go along with many, many different varieties of European.
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Ok, too different problems with things you've said here Syn.
First:
quote:All racism is bad, but on a historical level, white on non-white racism is a bit worse because historically most of the power belong to whites. Historically speaking, non-whites haven't had the power to shut out whites the way whites have, to shut them out of jobs or housing, that sort of thing, or to impose segragation. What many fail to realize is that racism has been institutional in this country for ages. It makes me so angry that it took several centuries for blacks to get any sort of equality. Not to mention all the problems other non-whites have had. Perhaps it's wrong of me to get angry over innocent remarks that people don't intend to be racist, but it's history, there's an other side of history a whole group of people is unaware of.
You want to know why people can't just let racism go? Cause you're still beating the dead horse!! I'm sorry, but I never held slaves, I've never put a black person down for being black and hell if black people would let me, I'd love to forget about that entire part of history, I'd love to forget about skin color.
And you know, I've met a number of black people who let me do just that, I don't even notice the color of their skin -- anymore than I notice the color of their hair. But there are others who very much don't. I don't know what it is, something about the way they act, the way they treat me, I feel like I'm walking on thin ice around them.
Second:
You're using "white" like it's a monolithic race. It's not! I can tell people of different descents apart. Someone of Irish decent clearly looks different from someone of Italian or Scandinavian decent. Folks of Irish decent get stereotyped all the time for being of Irish decent. As do Italian folks. Haven't you ever heard people making jokes about people of obvious Italian decent being in the mob? Or someone say "Well, duh he's an alcoholic, he's Irish!" Are you gonna tell me that's different from black folks being stereotyped, some how less? Cause their skin's white?
No, it's the same stupid thing... Assuming someone's in the mob because they are Italian Assuming all Irish people are drunks, and all Germans are nazis or over efficient and that Asians are like walking calculators. It's all dumb. And then you have stereotypes about black people, like their lazy. How the heck are black people lazy? That doesn't make any sense, non of these things make sense, but people will make all these remarks anyway and I just don't get it.
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OK. So prejudice is bad and we don't need it any more.
But if it's innate, it doesn't matter if we don't need it; we're stuck with it.
What could we do, from that perspective? (I think it's essential we maintain that perspective. If we think we can eliminate it, we just get a chance to move it to a different target, and not realize we have it.)
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Syn, Irish people used to not be able to get jobs in the States. And hey, people in this country think it's perfectly cool to mock the French. There's PLENTY of historical weight to go along with many, many different varieties of European.
Also, what Alcon said.
-pH
At one point Irish people, Italians and Eastern Europeans weren't even considered white. They had anti-Irish and Italian signs, probably signs like that against Russians and stuff, that made no sense... I wonder when exactly did they begin to be considered white...
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quote:Originally posted by Will B: OK. So prejudice is bad and we don't need it any more.
But if it's innate, it doesn't matter if we don't need it; we're stuck with it.
What could we do, from that perspective? (I think it's essential we maintain that perspective. If we think we can eliminate it, we just get a chance to move it to a different target, and not realize we have it.)
Realize that it's that internal primative creature inside saying, FEAR, BE SCARED, SOMEONE DIFFERENT and turn that off somehow by addressing it? Accept people as complicated individuals and not a representative of a racial group that MUST have every single stereotype? I like difference, difference facinates me, it's beautiful and awesome and makes things more interested. But, I'm more likely to find myself scared of ALL PEOPLE and not just one group... Stupid social phobia.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Yeah, you can't win in a way, but you got to admit it's gotten better. Also, I admit some people can be so over sensitive and automatically assume that a person is being racist because they say the wrong thing wtihout meaning to because they just don't know. Like dealing with a woman who is really irratable and will get so mad if you say it's because of PMS when she had a rough day. Maybe people of other races should put themselves in the shoes of well-meaning white people who are just trying to carry on a conversation and don't mean to step on toes, and whites should put themselves in the shoes of people who get so tired of hearing people say the same sort of things to them all the time.
On this subject, I will tell you a story. I used to work at a bookstore, and as part of my job, I had to sell a certain percentage of discount cards. A woman came in and asked about a number of books. It was obvious that she was really a big reader and loved books. We were very slow, so I spent a great deal of time with her while she browsed this new title and that new title while her husband stood outside the shop, obviously less interested in reading, and not really wanting to browse.
She decided to get a couple of books and her husband drifted over to pay for it and (because it was a small store), I was also the one to ring them up. I offered them a discount card. She said that she didn't want one because she's not from around here, and probably wouldn't have the chance to use it.
I asked her where she was from because people who are travelling generally seem to like to talk about their hometown and so that if she said that she was from Georgia or Florida I could point out that we have stores in her home state and it might well benefit her. This was also something I often asked out-of-towners because many people did not realize which chain we were a part of and it sometimes led to people realizing that they already had one of our cards and getting their discount.
Her husband jumped in and yelled at me for saying something so insensitive.
His reaction doesn't really make sense unless I mention that the woman was Asian and I am white and currently reside in Alabama.
It was completely obvious to me that she was an American. I expected her to answer that she was from California (because she had something of the accent of a Californian), but I asked on the off-chance she was from an area with one of our stores and because it would ruin my percentage and probably get me written up if I didn't sell a discount card soon.
However, her (white) husband interpreted me (as in the book [i]Yellow[/i} (which I've read)) as asking insensitively whether she was Chinese or Japanese or what.
What he didn't realize is that if she'd been a white woman, I would have asked the same thing and not have been thought to be insensitive. Many of the people I had asked up until that point, and many of the people I asked afterwards were eager to tell me where they were from and seemed pleased at being asked. And I never asked unless someone had already told me that they weren't from the area.
Is it really be insensitive to ask where someone is from when they've just told you that they're just visiting?
Unlike the people in Yellow, who wouldn't accept an answer of "North Dakota," that was all the answer I was looking for.
Yes, I realize that people asking Americans of Asian decent where they're "really" from is a problem, but this wasn't that. It was just the natural next step in a conversation:
"Would you like a discount card?"
"No, I'm just visiting this state."
"Really? Where are you from?"
The incident still bothers me because I don't feel that I did anything wrong. I didn't treat this lady any differently because of her parents' or grandparents' home country. I didn't make any inappropriate assumptions about where she was from. I treated her just as I would've treated any customer (and particularly any customer who I felt might possibly benefit from a discount card).
And I got accused of being racist.
Why? I can only assume that it's because I am a blond-haired, blue eyed resident of Alabama.
Should I have done something differently? Was this man's reaction justified? Did he even realize the assumptions he'd made about me? Was I being racist?
I still feel ashamed at the memory of this, but I really don't think I did anything wrong. It makes me angry, but I don't know who I'm angry at.
I can see both sides so clearly, but I am still chagrined and ashamed and angry, and I want to track that man down and tell him that he completely misjudged me. I think that his wife (who had spent about thirty minutes with me by that time) knew that he had overreacted and that it was an innocuous question leading directly from what she had just said and asking only an innocuous answer.
I still don't know what I should have done.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Don't feel bad about it, i reckon. He was the one who overracted to an innocent question, but then he could have gotten that question all of the time and might have been over sensitive and mgiht have just bristled at the wrong person.. it's so difficult Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
But wasn't I treated in a racist fashion as in the stereotype that all white Alabamans are racists? Do you really think he'd've jumped down my throat if I'd been Asian? Or more racially mixed?
The idea of just trying not to feel bad about being stereotyped seems to be the antithesis of many of these threads about racism.
After all, didn't you say in the other thread that telling Chinese people to not be so sensitive to the whole "ching chang" thing was wrong?
I'm angry to be so misjudged. I'm angry that my (from my perspective) polite interest was so violently rebuffed based on (I'm pretty sure) an estimation of my appearance and supposed history.
I don't think that you'd tell someone of a different race to not feel bad about it. Would you?
I realize that this sounds attacking, but this is part of what I struggle with when I think of this incident.
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It was wrong for him to think you're racist just because you're from Alabama... Maybe he had other experiences or something, he should have not jumped to conclusions.
I didn't exactly say telling Chinese people not to be sensitive was wrong, I said I'm sensitive about racism about Asians and I don't exactly know why...
and I probably would say the same thing to someone of any race because I wouldn't know what else to say... as the person would feel really bad afterwards...
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White people have it rough because people from every race are racist, but white people are always blamed for it.
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Elmer's Glue, you have profound point, and I'm not going to argue the truth in it. I think Chris Rock puts a modest perspective on the situation:
quote: "That's how good it is to be white. None of you would change places with me -- and I'm rich!... There's a white, one-legged busboy in here right now that won't change places with me. 'He's going 'no, man, I don't wanna switch. I wanna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me.'"
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
They do it because it's funny. And if they did the exact same thing, but depicted the woman as stupid, people would be more likely to find it offensive. At least that seems to be the opinion of the producers.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
They do it because it's funny. And if they did the exact same thing, but depicted the woman as stupid, people would be more likely to find it offensive. At least that seems to be the opinion of the producers.
it's not funny to me, it's aggravating, I'd hate to end up with a man like that, plus it's rather rude to men who are not like that..
Then again, I think that some of the women on those shows are stupid. They have these men and they know how they are and they fuss and yell at them anyway. They know the man they have is limited, he's not Einstien or Shakesphere, but just this guy! So why yell at him when they knew he was like that when they married him?
How about this, what if I said there was a certain type of feminist I dislike despite the fact that I am a feminist myself and believe in women's equality? It's the sort of feminist who thinks that ALL men are evil and if women ran the world there wouldn't be any war... That never makes sense to me...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That doesn't make it RIGHT. There are all kinds of things in commercials/tv shows/movies that I absolutely hate. Like fat man/hot wife. Do not get me started on fat man/hot wife.
posted
Just because you deny that racism exists doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Racism is still very alive in society today, and you know who it quite often affects? Yep, minorities. As in people who aren't white. For example, there was a recent study done on callbacks for jobs, and it found that resumes with stereotypical black names received 50% less callbacks than identical resumes with names like "Emily" or "James." When the resumes were enhanced the ones with black names received no increase at all in callbacks while the others received a 30% increase.
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quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: People seem to have no problem saying that racism against whites exists. I'll give you that.
What's your point? No one here is saying that racism doesn't exist. Many people are saying yes, racism exists. And it's racist to believe that racism only goes from whites towards non-whites.
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: People seem to have no problem saying that racism against whites exists. I'll give you that.
People seem to be having no problem saying that racism as a whole exists, including racism directed at whites.
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We all get on by way of the butterfly effect, but the wind seems to blow a little bit gentler for white men. I heard it was even better in the seventies. I imagine the same can be true for people who are devastatingly handsome. I know I treat them better.
Trying to isolate the exact moment decision that propelled G.W. Bush to the White House is impossible. Is it racist to say that Bush wouldn't be president if he were black? Maybe, but if he were black, he probably wouldn't be a republican, and I'm not sure that Bush would have made it too far as a Democrat.
Synesthesia, you live in a country where race matters for a myriad of reasons. Them is the breaks. It's not that King had it wrong when he said that we shouldn't judge people by the color of their skin but by the content of their character, it's just that in America, for reasons of history, skin color, culture, character are all inter-related in a complicated way that makes macro-economics look like an exact science and the magic eight-ball, profound wisdom.
posted
Racism against whites does exist, but I don't think white people have much to complain about in America. How many white people in America have run into serious problems because they're white?
White people generally don't care if someone calls us a honkey, or a milk skin, or cracker, or whatever, because it doesn't mean anything. There's nothing behind it. White people generally have it pretty good in America, and many places in the world.
I never have to walk into a store and wonder if the clerk is going to think I'm a shoplifter just because of my skin color. I never have to wonder if the police car driving by is going to wonder why I drive such a nice car. I don't have to worry if at a job interview, they'll doubt that I speak English well enough to speak with clients on the phone.
Maybe people have negative stereotypes against white people, but in America, it sure doesn't hurt me much.
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Isn't it a little prejudiced to assume that that's what people are thinking about you? I mean, to assume that someone is a racist simply because of their skintone is...inconsistent to say the least. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's really, really stupid to ignore these parts of it, since they do contribute to the problem.
I'm not sure it's that simple. Pretending the differences in culture don't exist isn't the same as addressing the issue.
The normal answer is to push for a Uniformity of "American" culture that transcends race. The problem is that the cultural foundation of America is comprised of white guys who got around the practical problems of their ideals by way of brazen hypocrisy.
There is a cost to democracy, there is a cost to freedom, there is a cost to living under a rule of law, and these costs are blithely ignored because white people, starting with the founders, gamed the system to their advantage and control the debate.
Addressing these costs is a job. Really, it's taken a lion's share of my thought, and I'm fumbling. But I think that if we solve the problem of race in American, we will solve the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, Public Education and even make a damn big dent on the War on Global poverty. Race is the Golden Ticket that'll shed light all the nation's ills.
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
They do it because it's funny. And if they did the exact same thing, but depicted the woman as stupid, people would be more likely to find it offensive. At least that seems to be the opinion of the producers.
it's not funny to me, it's aggravating, I'd hate to end up with a man like that, plus it's rather rude to men who are not like that..
Then again, I think that some of the women on those shows are stupid. They have these men and they know how they are and they fuss and yell at them anyway. They know the man they have is limited, he's not Einstien or Shakesphere, but just this guy! So why yell at him when they knew he was like that when they married him?
How about this, what if I said there was a certain type of feminist I dislike despite the fact that I am a feminist myself and believe in women's equality? It's the sort of feminist who thinks that ALL men are evil and if women ran the world there wouldn't be any war... That never makes sense to me...
It's because we have a society where making fun of men as fat, lazy, idiot slobs is perfectly okay, but mothers are more off limits. These aren't universal rules by any means, but I still think it's true. Having stupid female characters is funny, but it's also reviled as buying into an untrue stereotype. Having stupid males characters is alright, after all, they're just men. Having stupid HUSBANDS especially is a favorite. Having stupid inept wives is taboo. Mr. Mom being the best example I can think of to prove the point, or the Lifetime movie Mom's on Strike (though that one fairly went back the other way at the end).
Let's be honest. Men have a giant "kick me" sign on them in our society. You can call them fat and lazy, or stupid and ignorant, or racist and bigoted, or bad, horrible dead beat fathers, but you can't do that to women.
Last night Jay Leno told a joke about Naomi Watts' new move, I don't know the name. Her character has 'an affair that leads her through a voyage of self discovery.' Jay Leno jokes, 'why is it that when a woman has an affair, it's a voyage of self discovery, but when a man has an affair he's always shacking up with some hussy in a flat over on whatever street?'
Women aren't off limits by any means, but they get a lot of free rides. If a woman does an hour long stand up show on how stupid men are, women just nod their heads and go "yeah, that's right!" But if a man does an hour long stand up on how stupid women are, he's a mysogynistic pig. I think this especially goes for WHITE men.
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I think you can call women deadbeat moms if they are. But there's the other double standard where men who have lots of sex are cool, and women who have lots of sex are sluts. Our double standards are all kinds of contradictory towards each other. But I guess they kind of go together too...men are mindless sex drones, and women are...um....ethereal and libido-free?
No, you aren't talking about culture. I'm not sure you get to decide what "we're" talking about, especially considering that I think that race and culture are inextricable in a relevant way.
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No, you aren't talking about culture. I'm not sure you get to decide what "we're" talking about, especially considering that I think that race and culture are inextricable in a relevant way.
That's really amusing coming from someone who has, in the past, lumped together "whites" and certain select people who are minorities.
posted
In the past, I'll do it right now. White people are screwing up the World, and they don't care because they are too busy finding more efficient ways to pay rent and take care of junior to think or give a hoot.
quote: It's because we have a society where making fun of men as fat, lazy, idiot slobs is perfectly okay, but mothers are more off limits. These aren't universal rules by any means, but I still think it's true. Having stupid female characters is funny, but it's also reviled as buying into an untrue stereotype. Having stupid males characters is alright, after all, they're just men. Having stupid HUSBANDS especially is a favorite. Having stupid inept wives is taboo. Mr. Mom being the best example I can think of to prove the point, or the Lifetime movie Mom's on Strike (though that one fairly went back the other way at the end).
I would imagine female comedians to be pretty pissed of that, actually. It robs them of all the best roles.
I don't really watch that much American comedies but I think there are plenty of British ones that mock women and men pretty much equally (and sometimes they mock women more), for example television shows such as Keeping Up Appearances, Smack the Pony, Absolutely Fabulous and Green Wing.
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quote:White people are screwing up the World, and they don't care because they are too busy finding more efficient ways to pay rent and take care of junior to think or give a hoot.
This may be true, but the same could be said of many people of just about every other race as well. Trying to pay the rent and taking of junior are not racial issues, they may be cultural issues, but deffinately are not exclusively white pursuits.
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posted
I've been to places in asia where a common question with no offense attached was, "what's your race?"
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quote:Trying to pay the rent and taking of junior are not racial issues, they may be cultural issues, but deffinately are not exclusively white pursuits.
But the recklessness which with they do it is uniquely white and profitable. In the same way that living piously is not unique to Muslim terrorists, but the recklessness with which they practice religion is unique and destructive.
_____
The great problem is that white American culture is rapaciously productive, and you all have a love affair with things that are productive. If it were a little less productive, or if you'll didn't have a productivity fetish that outstrips your sense of decency, the world would be better. The problem is that American capitalism works. The same reason violence works. And drugs make you feel good.
All three are phenomenological facts. There is no getting around that American Captialism works. Violence works. Drugs work. If you want results, these three will get them for you. Other people have violence problems or drug problems, we produce and consume. You can try to domesticate American capitalism with anti-trust laws and fair trade agreements, violence with stripes and badges, and drugs with prescriptions, all external controls geared to keep the good and take away the bad from these facts of the human condition.
I'm just not sure that this play at muscling forces so primal is the right way to go. Then again, you can call a marriage license the domestication of sex, and that's been working out, kind of.
quote:The great problem is that white American culture is rapaciously productive, and you all have a love affair with things that are productive. If it were a little less productive, or if you'll didn't have a productivity fetish that outstrips your sense of decency, the world would be better.
:snicker:
Well, Irami's lazy, anyway...
:snicker:
quote:Then again, you can call a marriage license the domestication of sex, and that's been working out, kind of.
No-- because historically, sexual pleasure has been available even without domesticity.
I always ask people who have really strong accents where they come from, because I'm interested in other cultures. I'm not going to stop just because someone interprets it as racist. I know my heart, and I don't particularly care what a stranger thinks about my motives.
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quote:Originally posted by happymann: I've been to places in asia where a common question with no offense attached was, "what's your race?"
That's very, very different from automatically assuming somone's level of education/intelligence from their race, which I think Syn was talking about.
My take - I think Syn grouped people by race (unfairly) on her initial post. But I still think she has a point, and I cannot believe that members of the majority group cannot conceive that the discriminations they face within that majority group are significantly different than those discriminations minority groups face.
And for what it's worth, I do think any discrimination/stereotyping I face as a white Australian is significantly less than non-white (and particularly indigenous) Australians do.
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quote:If it were a little less productive, or if you'll didn't have a productivity fetish that outstrips your sense of decency,
Irami, get the hell over yourself. I don't think you know what a sense of decency is. You've certainly shown yourself utterly incapable of recognizing it in others.
I know I'm not the only one who gets tired of being called indecent or immoral by you. But I am the one saying cut it out. Stop doing it.
It's ignorant, it demonstrates intensely shallow thinking, and it's really, really old now.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: "That's how good it is to be white. None of you would change places with me -- and I'm rich!... There's a white, one-legged busboy in here right now that won't change places with me. 'He's going 'no, man, I don't wanna switch. I wanna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me.'"
Well, I don't particularly want to be male, or a comic. I think most comics have deep seated emotional issues. I'd trade places with Halle Berry in a heartbeat, though. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
"Prejudice never goes away. It's just that the list of acceptable targets changes at times." -- a (mangled) quote from OSC
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That doesn't make it RIGHT. There are all kinds of things in commercials/tv shows/movies that I absolutely hate. Like fat man/hot wife. Do not get me started on fat man/hot wife.
-pH
That annoys me as well, I keep watching King of Queens and According to Jim for some reason. It's not that they're fat, it's more THEY'RE SO STUPID! They are so amazingly stupid and the women have to yell at them in every episode about how stupid they are!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I hate the stupidity thing, too. But I also hate the fat thing because I really think that's where a great deal of women's attitudes towards themselves/certain men's attitudes towards women come from. The idea that men are allowed to be concerned with their partner's looks whereas women are supposed to be less "shallow" about their partners while still fretting all the time about their personal appearance is repulsive to me and probably does more harm to the development of girls' self-esteem than any damn skinny actress. Because girls learn that you have to be thin and pretty to attract any mate. Even if he's a fat stupid one.
I want to see a hot man/fat, stupid wife tv show/commercial/movie so that I can watch the hilarity everyone else's outrage.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Let's be honest. Men have a giant "kick me" sign on them in our society. You can call them fat and lazy, or stupid and ignorant, or racist and bigoted, or bad, horrible dead beat fathers, but you can't do that to women.
Oh, please. I've been made fun of for being fat all my life, and my being a woman didn't stop anyone from doing that. And you know what, I was made just as much fun of when I lost weight and wasn't that much over what is considered to be "normal" weight as I have been at a more obviously "over" weight. The worst is when some random person comes up and tells me I'm fat, as if they think I don't own a mirror and am too stupid to know that I am larger than some people.
And, just very recently, I ran into someone who I used to go to church with who, when she asked and I told her what I'm doing now, laughed hugely and said, " You have a job?", in utter disbelief. The obvious implication there was that she could not believe that I had gotten up off of my fat, lazy butt and gotten work. And then she got all offended when I asked her what was so unbelievable about me being employed. I mean, it isn't like I've never had a job before, and she knows that very well.
I get treated like I'm stupid fairly often, as well. You know, the slow patient explanations in one and two-syllable words. And then they don't like it when you make it plain that you aren't stupid. One time, for example when, in a group discussion, a guy mentioned the concept of geosynchronous orbit and then looked straight at me and started explaining it to me like I was five years old. I told him I knew what it was; he got angry at me.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
This is a very interesting conversation. Synesthesia, you brought up a topic that I think about often. I always wish that things could be different in the area of race. To me race is something I don't really notice. If I'm curious about where someone is from, I generally ask: what's your ancestry? Most people aren't offended by that.
I am a Euromutt (meaning I'm a little bit of everything including Hungarian, Czech, French, Welsh, etc.) Being partially Irish, I've gotten the whole Irish drunk thing. Being partially Swedish, I get the whole stupid immitation Swedish accent, and the assumption that I'm just a dumb blond. Being 6'1 with blond hair and blue eyes, in high school history classes when they got to WWII and descriptions of the Aryan nation, the majority African-American classmates would turn and stare at me. And often they'd ask if I was a Nazi.
And you know what? I'm not a Nazi. None of my ancestors were even in America before slavery was outlawed, so I don't consider myself guilty of slave owning either. And technically I'm very mixed race, but because it's all white, that's all anyone can see.
I teach musical theater for an after school program on the west side of Chicago. The high school has a Hispanic majority, and an African American minority. Within the first couple days of the program, as I was trying to get order and focus, I said something to the effect of, "You people need to be quiet." Now, I meant 'you punkass teenagers who won't shut up', by 'you people.' They thought I meant 'you brown people.' Let me just say, I was horrified. It wasn't even how I meant it, but looking back I can see how someone could take it that way. Because of a slip does that make me a racist? No.
Race is something I find very difficult because it seems like whatever you say is wrong and someone somewhere is going to be offended by it.
Posts: 511 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I hate the stupidity thing, too. But I also hate the fat thing because I really think that's where a great deal of women's attitudes towards themselves/certain men's attitudes towards women come from. The idea that men are allowed to be concerned with their partner's looks whereas women are supposed to be less "shallow" about their partners while still fretting all the time about their personal appearance is repulsive to me and probably does more harm to the development of girls' self-esteem than any damn skinny actress. Because girls learn that you have to be thin and pretty to attract any mate. Even if he's a fat stupid one.
I want to see a hot man/fat, stupid wife tv show/commercial/movie so that I can watch the hilarity everyone else's outrage.
/rant.
-pH
I was just watching one of those shows when the guy's wife got a sexy picture of her made and he showed it to his guy friends and was like, "See? I get to sleep with that, even though I look like this." And in another episode he was like, "Why don't you take the effort to be sexy?" and I wanted to scream at him and say, DUDE, LOOK AT YOU?!?!? I know I'm not all that, but still!!!! The guy's a manatee telling his wife to take the effort? I wanted to force him to hit a gym and hit it hard.
That's stupid, asking a person if they're a Nazi because they got blond hair and blue eyes. And where do people get that dumb blond thing anyway?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think the title of this thread is getting a big reaction and being called 'racist' because it implies that a black person would never ask an Asian person where they're from or that an Asian would never casually remark on how articulate a black person is. If something is belittling to another person, it MUST have been spoken by a person with insufficient melanin.
Me, I'm a North American Mutt. My mother, oddly enough, had a peculiar mixture of traits that allowed her to be accepted as "one of us" by black people and white people. She used to refer to herself as "high yellow" (though I'm pretty sure that would be an offensive label to put on another person). Her parents and grandparents were not visibly darker than she was, nor did they have any features that really belong exclusively to one race.
We're German, Prussian, Scotch Irish Protestant, Shawnee and either Malungeon or black.
Personally, I'd like to live in a world where everyone was as racially indestinguishable as my mother or, say, Keanu Reeves.
*Would also be Halle Barry in a heartbeat, or Michelle Yeoh, or Salma Hayek. Oddly, they are all on my informal switch list already Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: I don't consider myself guilty of slave owning either.
I'm really glad you and Alcon have mentioned this. I feel the exact same way. I'm Euromutt/Cherokee, but of course only the European part really shows up. I don't go around trying to make people feel guilty about how the white man stole my land. I don't think other people should expect me to feel guilty about slavery. I don't think that Europeans should feel guilty about their governments booting my Protestant ancestors out of their countries either, for that matter.
I had this long spiel typed out with some rant about how I feel about people's attitudes in post-hurricane New Orleans and how they're totally hindering the recovery effort, but then I decided that someone would probably take it the wrong way.
Edit: But I do want to add that the whole racism towards whites vs. towards non-whites thing kind of makes me think of the domestic violence issue. I mean, people rarely talk about domestic violence against men. Why? Because we think that men should be able to protect themselves I guess. Which implies that women CAN'T protect themselves. Which is really kind of sad.
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