posted
I don't think any of mine did in pre-Civil war America (I'm from poor southern stock, none of my known ancestors would have been able to afford slaves they were little more than indentured servants themselves) but I'd be willing to bet somewhere I have an ancestor that did. If we had Tru-Sights and the ability to go spy on all our ancestors I bet there's not one of us posting here who doesn't have ancestors that either owned slaves, or participated in some form or fashion in one type of slave trade somewhere, somewhen simply because slavery was an institution for so long and in so many places in the world.
People have been doing terrible things to each other since there have been people and none of us is descended from perfect people.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: My ancestors owned slaves. Would you like me to feel guilty about it?
Not really, as you weren't born yet. I read in Of Inhuman Bondaged how-
Africans sold other tribes into slavery Blacks also owned slaves of their own on rare occasions and native Americans too. Sometimes they might have had a white servant.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I mean, people rarely talk about domestic violence against men. Why? Because we think that men should be able to protect themselves I guess. Which implies that women CAN'T protect themselves.
Ph, the guy is probably bigger. I'm all for domestic violence awareness being skewed towards protecting women, for physical and financial reasons.
It's not about tracing blood ancestors. It's about culture. Americans, as Americans-- especially white Americans-- share a common cultural ancestory that is largely responsible for our economic and moral successes and failures, and it goes back to the Founders. They institutionalized the practice of saying one thing and doing the other in terms of human rights, and we've been picking up the pieces ever since. The American problem of race is uniquely American because throughout the whole business, large sections of our country refused to grasp, either consciously or unconsciously, the gulf between the rhetoric we pietously espoused and the practices we enshired.
The biggest issue race in America highlights is our ability to, from a deep place and broadly diffused by way of democracy, say one thing and do another and not be troubled by it.
posted
Yeah, physically the guy is bigger. And? That doesn't change the fact that assuming the guy should be able to protect himself automatically implies that the woman can't. You can't simultaneously empower women and tell them that they're delicate flowers who need more consideration when it comes to one partner hitting the other. That's not equality.
posted
Women need more consideration when it comes to one partner hitting other. If this violence is spontaneous in origin, the guy can do more damage. Who said anything about equality? And because of gender roles in society, it's easier for a guy to leave an abusive relationship. I'm not talking about equality.
You are invoking a strange relationship when you say, "automatically implies," that I don't think is appropriate. Take what you want, but if we have a finite amount of resources to spend on teaching how to protect yourself from domestic abuse, I am utterly comfortable with 80 percent of that advice being targeted to women.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
But the fact is, we largely ignore domestic violence against men. And because of that, it makes men more likely to put up with violence directed towards them by their partners. And we make women feel weaker in the same breath. It's not a matter of who can do more physical damage. It's a matter of incorrectly framing the issue. The issue should be violence towards partners, not violence towards women.
Irami, hasn't culture sort of... blended in a way on some levels? Especially the way on several occasions white teens would be interested in aspects of black culture, such as jazz and eventually rock and roll? (not that those artforms are limited to black people...) I think that the cultural lines bluring because of music is what helped push the Civil Rights movement forward in a way.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:hasn't culture sort of... blended in a way on some levels? Especially the way on several occasions white teens would be interested in aspects of black culture, such as jazz and eventually rock and roll? (not that those artforms are limited to black people...) I think that the cultural lines bluring because of music is what helped push the Civil Rights movement forward in a way.
It's blended on many of levels, but the foundational ones, the justice of a jury trial, a majority-ruled democracy, the pulling up of selves by bootstraps, that this as land of meritocracy, what merit means, the freedom of individuals, and the harmony of our basic American institutions, looks better or worse, righteous or ignoble, depending on where you are standing and what color you are in a general way, and the reason is because each culture has seen a different aspect of these same beliefs.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I tend to agree and disagree with you at the same time in different degrees... That is hard to type out. This country was founded mostly by Anglo-Saxons Protestants and their sort of rules like, you can only vote if you are a white male that owns land and things like that. Then there were Native Americans, African Americans, all sorts of people to consider. There is a core of people in all cultures who get so threatened by change, but mostly on my mind is whites, the sort of folks who would lynch people and be violent towards them instead of letting them have their rights, this doesn't represent the whole, but it went on in the past, and I can't completely understand it... How people who are parents, who go to church could have behaved in such a way for so long, it doesn't really make any sense. It's painful to talk about these things, and it makes people angry, but it's important to address it so that the future is free of it, things have only been getting better because of addressing it. American culture has improved because of all of this blending, because of the richness of other cultures in the tapestry, hopefully it can only get beter instead of getting worse.....
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
True, but then some of the persecuted other people... Folks seem to forget what it's like to be persecuted and why they should not do that to other people, but it's not like there's one group of people who is pure and entirely free of malice and evil.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
But that's my point. Every group of something has been discriminated against at some point. And every group of something has certain members who discriminate against others.
posted
Racism against some group or another has been going on in some form or another since at least biblical times, and likely long before that. I would imagine that it has beeng going on ever since prehistoric man was able to make a distinction between an "us" and a "them".
But just because it's been aroung for a while doesn't mean that it's not a Bad Thing.
It would be great if people come to realize that these distinctions are artifacts of human creation, and that, more often than not, there is such similarity and common ground between "us" and "them" that both parties would be better off if the distinction weren't made at all. Unfortunately for a long time racism was, and in many cases it still is, a central aspect of a person's cultural identity, and when racist practices are central to a person's way of life it becomes very hard to change their views.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I wasn't saying it wasn't a bad thing. As I've been saying all along, my point is that it's not all coming from one group, and I'm really annoyed that for some reason it's only PC to focus on one group as the source of racism.
Alright, so white Americans are screwing up the entire world...
Does that make us responsible for whatever India and China do? That's MORE than a third of the world's population, surely they have a role to play.
What about Africa? Why can't they get their act together? If we leave them alone, it's because we're racist and heartless, if we try and help, it's white man's burden racism. And for some reason, they either can't help themselves, or help themselves so slowly that no one seems to notice.
Why the hell is all of that our fault? You're placing an enormous amount of blame on people without much apparently understanding of history, which is amazing for your tone and posts, you act like you know everything.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I really want Irami to explain what he thinks black/Asian/Hispanic/Nativa American/Martian culture is, since it's my impression that he believes that the only way anyone can be successful is to be culturally white. So...can you not be a minority in his eyes unless your life sucks by whatever his definition of that is, since if you do well for yourself (however he defines that) you must be culturally white?
quote:Does that make us responsible for whatever India and China do? That's MORE than a third of the world's population, surely they have a role to play.
What about Africa? Why can't they get their act together? If we leave them alone, it's because we're racist and heartless, if we try and help, it's white man's burden racism. And for some reason, they either can't help themselves, or help themselves so slowly that no one seems to notice.
Why the hell is all of that our fault? You're placing an enormous amount of blame on people without much apparently understanding of history, which is amazing for your tone and posts, you act like you know everything.
Lyrhawn,
These are all live issues. I overspoke when I said the whole world, but if we end up in a nuclear world war, it'll be our fault for not pushing disarmament starting with number one.
As to everything else, I don't know. A lot of the issues you bring up appear to be economic issues, I'm just not sure that they have economic answers.
I don't have a magic bullet, but I think greater thought and care about these issues is a good place to start. My approach would be to start a dialogue with, and take a hard look at, the situation in our more degraded urban and rural areas, and how those communities relate to their wealthier, seemingly more successful counterparts, and once we have a greater understanding of the cultural infelicities which plague places on both sides of the fence, we can check to see how many of, and in what way, our solutions are applicable to different areas. While all the time, of course, taking the individual culture of a place particular place.
And again, it's not so much the white Americans problem, I think the great issue is that we may need to into question the righteousness of our solutions that we are so quick to prescribe.
For example, we are exporting democracy and the rule of law all over the world, at least we are exporting the talk of democracy, the rule of law and public education when I'm not sure that we've worked out the kinks in application at home, especially in a diverse community.
ph, you keep doing your thing, I'll keep doing mine. The twain don't have to meet.
posted
My biggest problem with the current PC culture is that it makes people afraid to say anything so they don't accidentally end up labled racists. I have a buddy who got accused of racism when a co-worker heard him mention that he liked to use slavery in Civ 4.
I firmly believe that you can only have sterotypes about people you don't know. Since racism is a value judgement about a race of people, it's a nasty form of sterotyping. To me, the easy answer is to get to know other people. My buddy Dre isn't a black guy, he's my friend who grew up as an Air Force brat in Europe. My buddy Chad isn't hispanic, he's a real estate salesman and really funny gamer.
If we make ourselves more open and less sensative, we'll have an easier time making friends with people who don't look just like us. I think that's the key to killing racism.
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