posted
I completely understand your reaction Zeugma and I admire your honest posts.
I agree with you that the girls reaction doesn't make a difference. Not morally. The only thing is, a crime is a crime as soon as it is reported as such, if you let it pass there is no such thing as a crime. I do think it's a shame she reacted that way, but very understandable. When it happened to me once, when I ordered some drinks for me and my friends at the bar and one of the guys standing there grabbed my bum, I turned around and smashed the contents of a glas of beer in his face. Then he really wanted to come at me but some other people prevented him. That was a scary moment. So yes, the easy way out for a girl is of course to either ignore it or call it 'no big deal'. In fact, what else can you do? Report it as a crime? Well, I guess you should. What I did wasn't right either. Same as when someone starts a fight with you. If you hit back you're both wrong. You should just take the blow and report it.
Posts: 1247 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:I take that to mean that, even though Blayne groped her knowing that it was wrong, and that he didn't have her permission, that there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if turned out she didn't mind. Which is why I responded as I did.
The point AW made and you seem to be missing is that there are situations--and not all of them involve a significant other--where groping is not offensive and does not cross any lines, and is on the teasing/joking end of the spectrum for both parties, as opposed to the harassment/rape end of the spectrum for either or both people. It's the same thing as people using kisses as greetings, playfully smacking each others' butts, etc., just a different degree.
quote: I do think it's a shame she reacted that way, but very understandable. When it happened to me once, when I ordered some drinks for me and my friends at the bar and one of the guys standing there grabbed my bum, I turned around and smashed the contents of a glas of beer in his face. Then he really wanted to come at me but some other people prevented him. That was a scary moment. So yes, the easy way out for a girl is of course to either ignore it or call it 'no big deal'. In fact, what else can you do? Report it as a crime? Well, I guess you should. What I did wasn't right either. Same as when someone starts a fight with you. If you hit back you're both wrong. You should just take the blow and report it.
Blayne, take note of what ginette says above, because it's very important: just because the girl says it's okay doesn't mean she thinks it is. It's possible--perhaps even probable--that she's only saying that to avoid confrontation and, ultimately, to move past it as quickly as possible.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I don't think she's missing that point. From what I can tell, Zeguma is acknowledging that these situations exist, but is stating that certain aspects of this one preclude it from being one of those.
Specifically, as she said in her last post:
quote:I take that to mean that, even though Blayne groped her knowing that it was wrong, and that he didn't have her permission, that there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if turned out she didn't mind.
*I'm just getting another beer* Girl: "Did you grab my butt?" Me: "Nope" Girl: "Oh, ok" *Confused look on face. Still trying to figure out who dun it*
To tell the truth, with how we were dancing to some of the music...I don't think she would have minded if I did.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
eros, she does thinks its ok and I base this on alot more evidence then is currently availiable for your scruntity, but it changes nothing from my POV, I did something that I never would have considered doing in any normal situation which I take personally to have been inapropriate(sp?). And as such will take measures to make sure I don't do anything as such again. As such I am looking at this thread very askansly now as I do not like the fact that motives are being attributed to me that is not the case.
She did not mind it period, she was only surprised that I did something OOC for me and from what I can groggily remember of the moment in question was laughing a little. And while the folloing ppl off of a bridge example comes to mind other people were doing it to and far more brazenly then me, it doesnt make what I did right or appriobiate since I didnt have expressed permission, and what I did was wrong but I am nonetheless very disliking the tone currently being endorsed here.
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quote:I take that to mean that, even though Blayne groped her knowing that it was wrong, and that he didn't have her permission, that there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if turned out she didn't mind. Which is why I responded as I did.
Okay, I see what you're saying. I took that to mean that if they really were friends and he really did do it jokingly and they really both laughed about it then it actually could be not a Big Deal. Even if he felt bad about it the next day.
I've done stupid things while drunk to friends of mine that were meant to be funny, and, in fact, were funny. And the friend thought so, too. But I was still embarassed because I overstepped my own social boundaries for the Funny, which wasn't something I'd typically do.
I do NOT think that that was the case with Blayne here, but I think that's the hypothetical that AW laid out. And I think it holds. I have female friends who routinely grab my ass as a form of greeting, and it's not a big deal to me or to them -- it's a reverse gender stereotyping joke. So, since it's happened to me a lot I agree that it is possible to 'grope' someone of the opposite sex who is not your significant other without giving offense, and I don't think that necessarily changes even if you feel embarassed about it later. I don't think AW was claiming that about this situation, and I agree with Squicky about certain aspects of this situation precluding it from being an exception such as those laid out above.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: if the situation had been completely different?
Because the discussion has moved to other areas as well. It is not all about what he did was wrong (which it was), but has also delved into when it can be not so wrong (or accepted).
By the way, I only take his asian comment to be that he has a fetish for asian girls. Nothing really wrong with that. We all have a fetish of some sort. And technically speaking, I have a fetish for asian girls as well. It's just not an over riding factor.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Zeugma in todays world where anime and martial arts films are increasingly popular and such and such I do not think I need to explain or defend myself when I as a white boy considers a girl of the asian pursiasion as being far more attractive then a caucasion woman take your indignation elsewhere.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: It occurs to me that I may not be using the correct terms here. Where is the line drawn between "molestation" and "assault"? If the girl were to press charges (and oh how I wish she would), what would it be filed under?
posted
That's just silly. Zeugma can't press charges against you; you haven't done anything to her. And she doesn't know the girl who was involved in this thing, so she can't try and persuade her to press charges either.
Not to mention if your account of the aftermath is at all truthful it sounds like there's no chance that the girl would do something like that.
I don't think being combative is going to win you any sympathy, dude.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Of course people can touch and grab each other in ways that are not unwanted. I think it's weird for men and women who are just friends to grab each other's genitalia as a joke, but yeah, of course that's fine. That's also totally irrelevant to what happened in this case.
Of course it's irrelevant. AW is aware of this:
quote:I would like to step in here and risk censure by tangenting a little and suggesting that there is nothing inherently (and try to listen to the meaning I'm trying to express here with my limited knowledge of your personal interpretation of words, and don't condemn me for things I'm not trying to say) wrong with jokingly groping a girl - in certain circumstances - as will be explained.
In this case, even though he's said "she didn't take it badly", the impression I've got is that it wasn't acceptable.
It doesn't sound like AW's post was directed at Blayne at all. Why are you reading it as though it was?
quote:It was sexual assault. Pointing out that there are other types of situations that are not sexual assault is irrelevant and, IMO, further confuses an already complicated issue.
The laws regarding sexual assault are extraordinarily complicated; should Blayne avoid learning as much as possible about what constitutes assault just because his personal issue is already complicated?
All AW's post really amounts to is clarification.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: It occurs to me that I may not be using the correct terms here. Where is the line drawn between "molestation" and "assault"? If the girl were to press charges (and oh how I wish she would), what would it be filed under?
I take this as being a threat.
Well, Blayne, I can't blame Zeugma any on this one. I see both parties involved have more or less managed to smooth things over. You feel very apologetic about it, and she said it was ok. For whatever odd reason that she has. I'm not backing you up on what you did, just making a statement.
However, I am the big brother of someone who had a similar incedent a few years back. You want to know a threat? Try what that kid had. I almost had plane tickets to fly back home to "say hello" to this boy, when my dad called and had to calm me down over it. I guess if they were ok to let bygones be bygones then I would have to be as well.
What you really need to do on this is to take a close look at your actions and see how you can prevent this action from happening again. For me, when I go and get drunk at a bar, I walk home. There is no need to drive, and I am not going to quit drinking. Especially when I am not even a heavy drinker....anymore. I learned my lesson a few years back.
Whatever the case may be, NEVER try to learn things the hard way. Learn from what mistakes you have already made, and then from others who made even bigger ones.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I know she cant but I take it as a very threatening remark from another poster, I'ld take it as being similar to saying she wish I'ld get blown up in a bus by a terrorist. (Which is probly how it will happen according to my dreams but thats irrelevent)
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: eros, she does thinks its ok and I base this on alot more evidence then is currently availiable for your scruntity, but it changes nothing from my POV, I did something that I never would have considered doing in any normal situation which I take personally to have been inapropriate(sp?). And as such will take measures to make sure I don't do anything as such again.
You obviously have more information available to you than we do, but don't write off the opinions of the people here just because we're being direct and aren't directly involved in the situation. There are others, including myself and at least two others who have posted in this thread, who have done stupid, mean, irresponsible or even criminal things while drunk. Learn from our mistakes.
quote:As such I am looking at this thread very askansly now as I do not like the fact that motives are being attributed to me that is not the case.
Don't take this as a jab at your typing/spelling/grammar, but I don't understand what you're saying here becase I don't know what "askansly" is supposed to be.
quote:She did not mind it period, she was only surprised that I did something OOC for me and from what I can groggily remember of the moment in question was laughing a little. And while the folloing ppl off of a bridge example comes to mind other people were doing it to and far more brazenly then me, it doesnt make what I did right or appriobiate since I didnt have expressed permission, and what I did was wrong but I am nonetheless very disliking the tone currently being endorsed here.
This is what I was talking about when I said you expected a different response than this community is prepared to give. You've mentioned several times that you thought parts of this were funny; while that may be true in isolated incidents, as a reader of this story my mind zeroes in completely on one thing only: what you did to this girl.
I'm not sure what responses you expected, Blayne, if anger, chiding and advice didn't fit.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I know she cant but I take it as a very threatening remark from another poster, I'ld take it as being similar to saying she wish I'ld get blown up in a bus by a terrorist. (Which is probly how it will happen according to my dreams but thats irrelevent)
You shouldn't take it that way, since one is an illegal act that ends your life, and Zeugma's desire to see you prosecuted is the desire for due process for someone who broke the law.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
They're kinda similar, though, since in both cases they're wishes. A wish isn't the same as a threat, Blayne.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Someone who allegedly broke the law. What law, anyway? What are the precise details and so forth? Hmm... I will start a thread on this; it seems important enough.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
The only thing that I considered funny was my absolute insistence that I was not drunk when quite obviously I was. That was it that was all nothing else was.
Blayne, your post, your resolution. Just trying to help before the spelling and sentence structure nazis get you.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
which one? Remember I only made a res for spelling, grammar will wait until 2008 and coherency when China wins the Olympics.
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posted
Maybe that was an intentional combination of absolute and obsolete? Not exactly a ginormous chance of that, but who knows....
Posts: 6213 | Registered: May 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
oooooh... i looked at it several times and it didnt occur to me it was misspelt. Absolute it is then.
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quote:Don't take this as a jab at your typing/spelling/grammar, but I don't understand what you're saying here becase I don't know what "askansly" is supposed to be.
*Uses mutant Blayne-insight powers*
I believe it is 'askance', with a mis-spelling plus a redundant adverb-formation. For your information, Blayne, 'askance', although an adverb, has already gotten its ending. Which, incidentally, is why you cannot separate grammar from spelling; they are intertwined.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
While I don't agree with what Blayne did, we don't know all the details, so I don't think we're in a position to make final judgment. With that in mind, I think it's more appropriate to wish that Blayne learn from this mistake, realize the implications and make a positive change, rather than wishing prison on him for a stupid, drunken mistake.
Justice ought to be fair, in my mind. I don't see how justice would be served by wishing a criminal prosecution upon someone who made a stupid mistake that didn't seem to bother the victim all that much.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: It's amusing to most people at the party, it's not generally condemned, and there's little sympathy unless hospitalization is involved. Almost no one ever helps, and the attendees can be counted on to lie if authority becomes involved.
It's predation, pure and simply. And I know there's predation of women at parties - I'm specifically comparing non-physical sexual harassment to fighting.
You went to the wrong kinds of parties Dag. I mean, those frat bashes don't sound like your style! They're certainly not mine, and I haven't been in an uncomfortable part situation since probably my freshman year at college. Now I get together with friends.
That's what you need Blayne... get together with people who you like and who *actually* like you back.
Edit: I'll go one further and add that I've been in Blayne's situation, pretty much. The difference was that I was a young 17 year old and I was being pressured by older people who were *NOT* my friends, but whom my 17 year old brain didn't have the wherewithal to avoid. These are people who are, 5+ years hence, still in the same place they were then, or worse in rehab for drug addiction or in prison for one thing or another. They are people who stayed where we grew up because they couldn't recognize anything better in themselves. I cynically think now that they recognized something in me that was going to get me away from that life, and they didn't like it.
A girl I grew up around but didn't know very well was serving coffee at the local cafe around thanksgiving. She asked me what I was up to, and when I told her what I was doing, she nodded and said "I always knew you'd get out and get away and do something." The people I grew up with, utterly cruel children some of them, has spent some portion of their childhoods mocking me and tearing me down and everything else that comes with being a kid and depending on other people for approval. I get out and I'm a hero all of a sudden, for being the same person I was when they tortured me. Trust me, I know what this group of people is or I can imagine them very clearly. If they're anything like the awful people I've known in my life, then they'll never let you grow, never let you dream, and always tear you down and try to keep you the way you are for ever.
"Don't ever change" is a curse, I would never wish it on you, change is a very very good thing much of the time. Every time you have to exist in a new environment, make new friends and build a new peer group, you get closer to the people you should be friends with, and those are the ones right for you.
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