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Bokonon - thanks for that link. I was going to read Cat's Cradle and didn't know anything about it, so it's been sitting on my shelf for a couple of months. Now I'm excited to read it and may start it tonight. Thanks!
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I believe in the baseline = normal thing. I think one of life's biggest problems is achieving your dreams and goals, because then you have to come up with all new ones. Very irritating.
Ditto. Or you're looking forward to Thing X happening, and when it happens it just doesn't bring you what you expected, or it isn't the way you thought it would be, and then you're all disillusioned and frustrated. I think it's great to achieve your goals. But I also think it's great to always have huge, gigantic goals that you can continually strive towards. It always gives you something to do.
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I agree with everybody partially. (Does that make me impartial?) I also had lots of friends who after college were like, I dunno, I guess I'll get a law degree. It seemed aimless (and expensive!) to me at the time.
And it's also true that you can wander into something you love. Happened to me. I was like, I dunno, I guess I'll get a teaching degree. Now it's my dream job (although I'll never get to retire at 32!).
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Liz, there's a little paper on the wall at my company. Not many people ever read it, but I do periodically as I find it a good reminder tp not be concerned with other people's choices and make my own life into as much of what I want as I can.
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I know many classmates who I think chose to do law simply because it was the most exclusive course available to them.
I had many better-paying and less strenuous options available to me after graduating high school, but I chose architecture instead. While I'm happy I made that decision, I'm not 100% that I'm headed down the right track.
On the other hand I have a friend who always knew he wanted to be a film director. I met him in the 6th grade, and he was already sure then. Right now he's in film school, and I'm sure he'll make great movies in the future. I respect him immensely, as I tend to respect people who know what they want and single mindedly go about achieving it.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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I still don't know exactly what I want to do (I have a few ideas), but I don't mind much. I'm still young. And after I finish my MBA, I want another degree. I don't see anything wrong with that. I like school, and I'm studying things that I want to learn. So does it really matter if I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with my degrees? I don't think so.
I believe, that if someone knows what they want to achieve, has the necessary competency, is determined to achieve it, and works towards it intelligently, they have a good chance of achieving what they want.
A good example of this, is a baseball batter... a good hitter goes in with the necessary talent and preperation, makes adjustments along the way, and when the opportunity comes, swings at it.
Does he hit every time he swings? Of course not. Excellent batters have averages around 0.4.
What I AM trying to say, however, is that none of those home-runs were hit while trying for a bunt. So, if you want to hit a home-run, you gotta swing.
But, there are also people, whose role is to hit the bunt... [like people with a family]... who responsibilities [and risk aversion] are different from the big swingers. Clearly, if someone's been sent out to bunt goes out, swings and misses he's missed the point [if he swings and connects he's a hero].
Obviously, given the fact that several people are trying for the same thing, some are not gonna get it [I addressed this issue earlier]. You're only improving your chances by giving it your 100%... because someone out there who's just as talented as you will give his 100%.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I think this story [while amusing] is not really relevant... The "joke" is that the american businessman /mba does not think of the goal /end of the great business journey that he describes before he actually gets to it.
I wont dissect it, coz it's a joke, and it's funny, and that's all it needs to be.
But in terms of relevance, imagine what the fisherman could achieve for his community. He could improve the standard of living in his village by offering better employment, education etc. And he could put his profits to good use by contributing to charity... thus leaving the world a better place than he found it [in return for the few fishes he took away].
Let's take the fisherman's life... what does he do if his son gets sick? What happens to his family if he dies in a tragic sea-accident /storm etc?
Even if we follow the story till it's end, isnt he making his family's future more secure by having those millions in the bank [for whenever they need it]?
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I think this story [while amusing] is not really relevant... The "joke" is that the american businessman /mba does not think of the goal /end of the great business journey that he describes before he actually gets to it.
I wont dissect it, coz it's a joke, and it's funny, and that's all it needs to be.
But in terms of relevance, imagine what the fisherman could achieve for his community. He could improve the standard of living in his village by offering better employment, education etc. And he could put his profits to good use by contributing to charity... thus leaving the world a better place than he found it [in return for the few fishes he took away].
Let's take the fisherman's life... what does he do if his son gets sick? What happens to his family if he dies in a tragic sea-accident /storm etc?
Even if we follow the story till it's end, isnt he making his family's future more secure by having those millions in the bank [for whenever they need it]?
You missed the point of the story entirely.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Don't worry. Life will in a few years. :)
What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
If I'm missing something in the story, and you know what it is, why can't you tell me?
From where I'm standing, I'm as unlikely to take career advice from a joke about a Mexican fisherman "in a few years" as I am now.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Abhi: What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
Perhaps it's in response to the attitude you've been expressing all thread?
Rivka, I simply asked to be explained the "point of the story" that I'm supposed to have missed. And yet, even after asking thrice, there's been no response.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Rivka, I simply asked to be explained the "point of the story" that I'm supposed to have missed. And yet, even after asking thrice, there's been no response.
And you've been asked several times why your "you have to try if you want to succeed" point demonstrated that Jim-Me's original argument doesn't hold water. You don't seem to feel a need to answer those questions.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Some clarifications, some responses.
First, I want to clarify what my argument is:
I believe, that if someone knows what they want to achieve, has the necessary competency, is determined to achieve it, and works towards it intelligently, they have a good chance of achieving what they want.
They also have an excellent chance of being prevented by circumstances beyond their control, or making a simple but large mistake that completely ruins their chances. What then? is the rest of your life meaningless because you missed the opportunity to do something? I beat my friend the Google exec in a programming contest in high school... am I now a waste of oxygen because I never tried to be a coder?
quote:A good example of this, is a baseball batter... a good hitter goes in with the necessary talent and preperation, makes adjustments along the way, and when the opportunity comes, swings at it.
Does he hit every time he swings? Of course not. Excellent batters have averages around 0.4.
no batters have averages around .4. In fact you can count the number of batters with career averages that even round to .4 on one hand without using your thumb.
But that reminds me of another true story... one that has been an inspiration to me for my entire adult life. My uncle never heard of baseball before moving to America from Mexico as a little boy. In the 9th grade, he tried out for his high school team and was among the first people cut. So, he got a tennis ball, drew a square on the side of the school in chalk, and went out and threw pitches at the square every day, rain or shine, for 45 minutes. Eventually, other kids joined in and they developed a game where they would hit against each other with the chalk strike zone. As a sophmore, he made the varisty at Burbank High. He had a 92 mph fast ball and went to UCLA on a scholarship where he had a pretty stellar pitching career and also batted .384 (I don't recall his pitching stats). He was drafted by the Kansas City Royals and in 1976 moved up from Double A to join the team in Sarasota for Spring Training. As they were relaxing and playing basketball, someone blocked one of his shots and tore his rotator cuff, ending his career.
This is an example of what you are talking about... he worked his way into the very elite of what he wanted to do-- and that is inspiring. The part you seem to be unaware of is that he then lost it all in a fluke accident. Achievement isn't guaranteed, failure, however, almost certainly is, at some point. I guarantee you there are a lot more people like my uncle than there are people like Pedro Martinez.
quote:What I AM trying to say, however, is that none of those home-runs were hit while trying for a bunt. So, if you want to hit a home-run, you gotta swing.
Also true, but what you seem to be ignoring is that there are hundreds of ways to be useful to a team without ever hitting a home run. Bunting well is far more useful than hitting for power when you don't have it.
quote: Clearly, if someone's been sent out to bunt goes out, swings and misses he's missed the point [if he swings and connects he's a hero].
No. He's a lucky stiff that will find his sorry, selfish, know-it-all butt riding the pine in short order. I also seriously object to your comparison of running a good family as "bunting". If there is a "home run" in this game of life... if there is anything that makes the world a better place... it's giving your kids the opportunity and understanding to go out and be good people. This is our largest disconnect in the entire issue.
Watch, "It's a Wonderful Life" sometime. Tell me, who did more to make the world a better place? George Bailey or his little brother? George Bailey or his friend Sam? George Bailey or Mr. Potter? Of them, George was the one who swallowed his ambition and did what he did because he ought to, rather than because he wanted to make a difference in the world. You want a hero? You want someone who makes a difference? George Bailey is your man... and his willingness to give up his dreams is what makes him so.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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wow, that's kinda scary... to my knowledge, neither I nor "Jhai" has ever mentioned this...
Jhai mentioned you as the boyfriend and fiance at least twice in the last year or two and mentioned recently that you and she got married, so yeah, it has been mentioned by her. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: You want a hero? You want someone who makes a difference? George Bailey is your man... and his willingness to give up his dreams is what makes him so.
posted
I honestly don't understand the aversion against being ambitious, and trying to chase a dream.
I've said repeatedly, that [obviously] failure is a possibility, but just because it can happen doesnt mean we don't try at all.
The family thing seems to come up every time too... even though I say repeatedly that working for the good of your family is also a worthwhile pursuit.
But tell me this, would the world have been a better place to live in if MLK, Gandhi or Mandela had put their families before their nations? Isn't uplifting your entire people greater than just your family?
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The aversion is not against ambition. My aversion, at least, is against your judgmental, prideful condemnations of people getting advanced degrees without having found their life's work yet.
It is also against the either/or scenario you present of family and/or greatness.
Would the world have been a better place if MLK didn't cheat on his wife? Yes, I think it would. Looking inward and looking outward are not mutually exclusive.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:I've said repeatedly, that [obviously] failure is a possibility, but just because it can happen doesnt mean we don't try at all.
And NO ONE HERE has said that we don't or shouldn't try at all. Your repeated assertions in that people should try make it strongly appear as if you think posters are saying that people shouldn't try. It also appears as if you are saying that someone who, for example, finds a good career for supporting his family and relegates his more impractical dreams to hobby or part-time status hasn't tried. It's that aspect that I think most people are responding to strongly.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Abhi: What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
Perhaps it's in response to the attitude you've been expressing all thread?
Rivka, I simply asked to be explained the "point of the story" that I'm supposed to have missed. And yet, even after asking thrice, there's been no response.
Because all you've demonstrated so far in this thread is your complete and utter inability to engage in a good faith discussion.
I've patiently posted several times with direct questions that you have yet to answer, so I don't really feel the need to waste my time attempting to banter with you anymore.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:wow, that's kinda scary... to my knowledge, neither I nor "Jhai" has ever mentioned this...
As quid said, but mainly it's because Jhai's a friend of mine on facebook.
Facebook, as you know, knows all. Couple that with my problem with not forgetting strange and trivial bits of info, and voila -- a magic trick. Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Fact is, most people DON'T WANT to be different. Most people WANT the cookiecutter lives, the house and kids, the job, etc that society says they should have. They are given goals by society, and follow the paths to those goals. And unfortunately, succeeding in those goals and having the things society tells you you should have doesn't lead to happyness.
And that bs about not letting your job define you? Just that, bs. You spend your life working at a job. You can do it and not enjoy what you are doing just to get the paycheck, or do what you love and get the paycheck. Some people don't care about the happiness or enjoyment of the job, and that's okay for them. I do care, and it's important to me.
I went the uncommon route, and I got crap for it all the way. I started my own business and dropped out of school before I was finished. Although I eventually got my degree, what I do is not in my field of study. When I dropped out, I did so because I wasn't fitting in to what everyone else was doing in that degree path, and frankly I didn't want the same things that the rest of my peers did. The business I started isn't a glamorous business, isn't the normal 9 to 5 job, and isn't something most people would want to do. Yet everyday I work I'm happy, every day I enjoy what I'm doing, and I've got the same things that other people have, yet I got them on my own terms. And when I see these miserable 'career' people who work jobs they hate, and get laid off because they don't control their own future, I just don't get it.
You can live the life you want. Problem is, most people don't want anything different and allow the rest of the world to guide their lives for them.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I like school. Therefore, why stop with graduation? Plus, although I'm not sure, I think I want to do scientific research. Advanced degrees sort of help with that.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Personally, I'm very happy with my "cookie cutter" life with my wife, family, church, and hobbies (in no particular order).
I don't need to be a hero at work. Heck, if I could swing it, I'd quit work altogether.
But I didn't let the world choose this life for me. I consciously chose it, every step of the way. It's what I wanted and still want.
You obviously didn't read Stihl's last post carefully enough.
quote: You can live the life you want. Problem is, most people don't want anything different and allow the rest of the world to guide their lives for them.
See, if you have the life you want, that's because you've allowed the world to guide your choices. Only by selecting the life that Stihl wants can you truly become a self-actualized individual.
I don't know how you missed that.
Posts: 563 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: And that bs about not letting your job define you? Just that, bs. You spend your life working at a job. You can do it and not enjoy what you are doing just to get the paycheck, or do what you love and get the paycheck. Some people don't care about the happiness or enjoyment of the job, and that's okay for them. I do care, and it's important to me.
I went the uncommon route, and I got crap for it all the way. I started my own business and dropped out of school before I was finished. Although I eventually got my degree, what I do is not in my field of study. When I dropped out, I did so because I wasn't fitting in to what everyone else was doing in that degree path, and frankly I didn't want the same things that the rest of my peers did. The business I started isn't a glamorous business, isn't the normal 9 to 5 job, and isn't something most people would want to do. Yet everyday I work I'm happy, every day I enjoy what I'm doing, and I've got the same things that other people have, yet I got them on my own terms. And when I see these miserable 'career' people who work jobs they hate, and get laid off because they don't control their own future, I just don't get it.
Do you have any idea how much like an Amway salesman you sound?
I work a job that, well, I don't hate it, but it's definitely not entertaining at all.
I have been laid off twice... both at very inopportune times.
I certainly don't control my future... in fact, I am scraping to make it to this year's tax return.
I also almost certainly have less "things" than you. Most of what I did have, I've had to sell in the last six months as my financial burden has become more and more desperate.
...And you can take your better-than-me attitude and blow it out your ass. I am making the life I want and, for the first time in a long time, doing a pretty damned good job of it. You see, I *don't* define myself by my job. It's not BS; it's how I LIVE. I don't define myself by my possessions or my bank account either. If you don't get it, that's not my problem, but if you want to sit there and act like you're a better person than I am because you successfully put your little business together and I work in a cube farm then damned straight you are going to get a hostile response.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
quote:If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
It doesn't work that way. You're scum, like the rest of us.
quote:If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
No. It makes you the batting coach. I think.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
hey, i dont think stihl1 was trying to make a personal attack against anyone.
what i and [i think] he are trying to promote is an entrepreneurial mind-set, trying to emphasize the importance of taking risks, and trying to make a difference in the world.
Without the risk-takers, our society would not progress. This perhaps why India and China are suddenly making such an impact on the world economy... the empowerment and encouragement of entrepreneurial individuals who want to make a difference.
posted
I'm all for the entrepenurial mindset. I have had a couple of ideas for little cottage industries myself. One ended up requiring too much capital, the other would (currently) mean more risk than I am comfortable taking with 5 people counting on me and a 6th betting pretty heavily on me as well.
But there's a strong undercurrent in both of your posts that people without an entrepenurial mindset are just running in hamster cages... and that is not only flat untrue, but offensive.
If you want to be Dynamic and a doer, that's great. Move and shake to your heart's content.
But don't assume we are lazy and unmotivated because we don't share your definition of success and making an impact.
Edit: Thanks Blacwolve-- you are awfully sweet... just remember I talk a better game than I play, too (like most people). It's easy to stand up here and talk about my ideals. Living them is difficult and I can be as shallow and selfish as the next person.
quote:If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
quote:I honestly don't understand the aversion against being ambitious, and trying to chase a dream.
quote: The aversion is not against ambition. My aversion, at least, is against your judgmental, prideful condemnations of people getting advanced degrees without having found their life's work yet.
I think that my aversion is that you are defining ambition only in your own terms, which I think seems to be financial success to a large part. I think, if we'd been friends, you would have said the same thing about me a few years ago. After finishing college I went right into a grad degree. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it but I'd applied for jobs and found *none* of the offers appealing. And a few years ago, I might have agreed with you. But now, after being in grad school for almost 5 years and having a lot of time to think on it I have a few thoughts.
For me, getting a PhD in Computer Science was really ambitious. Actually getting a job and trying a more conventional career would have been auto-pilot. I chose computer science because I didn't think an English degree would do much for me and I found it interesting and most of all very challenging. But I was never in *love* with it and on bad days I'd complain about how awful it was constantly. Now, when I look back I think I was secretly trying for something I never realized and would not have even admitted to myself. And now, that dream has faded/changed I'm not sure what I want to do. But, I think that while it does worry me, I'm also realizing that you can't see the path your life will lead. And I will do something that I never could have done without this degree and it will be something really interesting.
But, at the time I could have never articulated that. Instead I would have told you, oh I didn't want to get a job. When the real answer was those jobs didn't work for me so I grasped for something better.
I know that this isn't true for everyone. But, when you're judging your friends. Remember that a masters program is only 2 years and that maybe they're hoping it'll open some door that wasn't open now.
A person's job really don't define them. The person they are defines them. A job makes up part of that. But so does the way you live your life. One can be sucessful in so many ways, emotionally, intellecutally, financially and so on. I think a life well lived should never sacrifice any of these for another.
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Without the risk-takers, our society would not progress.
Yes, but without the people who are willing to forego some of the upside in exchange for taking less of the downside - and such people are risk-takers, too - entrepreneurs would have no one to hire and, likely, very few customers to sell their goods/services to.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: just remember I talk a better game than I play, too (like most people).
Yeah, but most people don't have five such wonderful, intelligent, loving, loved, well-behaved and well-parented kids.
When I think of wonderful parents who I aspire to be like some day, you and Boon are at the top of the list.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: But tell me this, would the world have been a better place to live in if MLK, Gandhi or Mandela had put their families before their nations? Isn't uplifting your entire people greater than just your family?
You don't have children, do you?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Stihl1, What right do you have to thrust your own perception of greatness and ambition upon someone else? If the "cookiecutter" lifestyle is something that they acheived, are proud of, and currently maintain (mr_porteiro_head), then what is the problem?
I completely understand what it means to take risks, and how that can improve much else, should the attempt be successful. However, Not everyone has world-changing ambition and goals. Still, many people have taken big risks that have as much of an impact in their immediate world.
As for MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela, they believed in making the world better because they wanted their families to have something better. They cared about their people and their families.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I don't get why starting your own business is somehow more noble than other careers. It's not necessarily even more useful to society. For many, it doesn't even lead to more wealth than other jobs might.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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