posted
This is all based on the premise that Snape is good...
Severus Snape reminds me a bit of Wesley W. Price in Angel from the middle onwards, and of Angel himself in the last few episodes of that show. Like those two, Snape seems to be one of the few people in the story who recognize what being at war with someone, for these sorts of stakes, truly means. He (Snape) appears willing to let himself be deeply hated and mistrusted by his closest friends and allies, to even put the blood of a friend on his hands, to win the war. To do dreadful things in pursuit of victory.
Just like Wesley did, kidnapping Angel's son. That's near the top of the list of awful things someone could do. Just like Angel did, towards the end of the show, putting on his show and planning his ambushes.
Somebody has to be concerned not just with fighting, but with winning. And from what I've seen, the rest of the Order of the Phoenix lacks the intelligence and cunning and ruthlessness necessary for victory. The Harry Potter stories started out, but are not ending up, like a story in which the brave, plucky heroes face challenges and personal sacrifices but manage to conquer the villain. As the stories have become darker, they've also become more real in a sense.
Of course, this probably has something to do with the fact that I'm rewatching the series and it's almost over, so it's coloring my perceptions a bit:)
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Not that I want to give the movies any credibility *over* the books....because i think they usually don't do them justice at best and at worst are hideously drivel-filled children's flicks....BUT we do know through interviews that some of the cast have been told future secrets from the books in order to enhance their roles, as have the directors. so i think it speaks in Snape's favor that the movies paint him more often than not as a pompous bumbler, rather than a seriously frightening, powerful jerk (as per the books.) I was thinking about this today and felt it might hint at Snape's true allegiences rather than any bad acting and/or directing.
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quote:What makes it okay that Snape killed Dumbledore?
It kept Malfoy alive, established Snape as Voldemort's closest ally, and killed somebody who was probably dying already and had already come to peace with the concept.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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That's interesting, Leonide-I didn't know that about the actors being given spoilers to assist in their roles.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Snape is portrayed as a 'bumbler' in the films (although with the exception of the latest two films, I've only seen them once, and it's been a long time)...I'm reminded of Snape in Prisoner of Azkaban in which he puts himself quite deliberately between the children he clearly 'dislikes'(to put it mildly) and a snarling, mouth-foaming, hungry werewolf.
No one else was there. If he'd simply stepped aside, his (and Voldemort's) troubles would be over.
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Good point, Tom. Not only was Dumbledore quite old and opposed to life-lengthening potions (as we discovered in the very first story), but he had a rotted, dead lump of hand hanging off the end of one of his arms. It didn't appear to spread, but neither did it go away, either. It could very well have been killing him by inches.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dumbledore isn't afraid to die. Even in the first book he stated how death was just one great adventure. He's not like Voldermort who will kill in order to avoid dying. So it makes sense to me that he wouldn't beg for his life. But, at that point in the book the man was in agonizing pain. Who knew what that potion was doing to him? Before he finihsed it he was screaming like a child in pain and agony because of it. At that point he couldn't even stand up properly and I think he was dying all through the book, especially the way his hand was withered and blackened. I think the look of pure loathing from Snape might have come from having to kill the one person who truly cared about him and trusted him. He was probably angry from being put in that position. Sacrifice, after all, is a common theme in this book, such as Ron in the first book as the knight sacrificing himself so that harry can go in and finish the battle.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: Somebody has to be concerned not just with fighting, but with winning. And from what I've seen, the rest of the Order of the Phoenix lacks the intelligence and cunning and ruthlessness necessary for victory. The Harry Potter stories started out, but are not ending up, like a story in which the brave, plucky heroes face challenges and personal sacrifices but manage to conquer the villain. As the stories have become darker, they've also become more real in a sense.
This kind of goes along the lines of "the end justifies the means" which does not seem to be something that Rowling is preaching. In fact, she lambasted the ministry of magic multiple times for doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons.
quote:Dumbledore isn't afraid to die. Even in the first book he stated how death was just one great adventure.
No, he's not. This has been of primary importance throughout the series. He may be better prepared for death than any human alive, but that doesn't mean he wants to die, either. I don't think that the two are incomputable.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I've heard that explanation for what makes it okay and it just isn't okay to ME. I guess that's my biggest problem with it is that even if it is the truth (and it could be...certainly none of us know how the seventh book will end and that makes it all the more exciting), *I* can't accept it. This may end up being a personal failing of mine, but there you are.
Would you have preferred another death eater had seen the hesitancy of Snape and Malfoy and decided to finish off Dumbledore on his own, thus insuring the deaths of those two as well? Because to me that would have made me quite angry as I have been waiting for Malfoy to start seeing things clearly since book two. Not only that, Harry would have NOT gotten the invaluable advice that Snape was throwing at him while Harry tried to kill him.
"Blocked, again and again and again, until you can keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"
This has been mulled over "again and again and again.." but the author makes a point of closely describing Snape's expressions and emotions at this point. To me Snape clearly enjoyed chastising Harry, and mocking his father in front of him. But he also clearly did not want to kill him and believe me if anybody has enough disdain for Harry it could be Snape. But Snape is still all together good however much he hates being Harry's de facto ally.
Even when Harry accidentally emulated his father by using Snape's spells against him, Snape chose to incapacitate Harry rather then even wound him in some permanent manner, Snape would have been well within limits hurting Potter, and he certainly had the know how.
I just think if Rowling wrote the book as if she was trying to cast serious doubt on Snape's goodness rather then expose him for who he really was.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: In fact, she lambasted the ministry of magic multiple times for doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons.
I disagree. She lambasted the Ministry time and time again for doing the wrong things for the WRONG reason. All of the things the Ministry did, it did to enhance it's own authority and make itself look good, something which both Harry and Dumbledore saw as not a very good reason.
I'm not saying that Rowling believes that "the ends justify the means", just that your example does not prove the point one way or the other.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Hey, just throwing this out there, but if Harry is a Horcrux (I don't think he is, but it is possible), than perhaps Snape didn't kill him because he didn't want to further injure Voldemort. I personally get the feeling Snape is good, so I'm kind of playing devil's advocate, but there are quite a few questions that arise when defending Snape.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I don't buy the Harry as a Horcrux thing for a lot of reasons, the foremost being that VOLDEMORT ALREADY TRIED TO KILL HIM. Several times in fact. Most especially after he got his body back and after he killed what's his name after the Triwizard tournament. He did the avada kadavra, and it's only because of their linked Olivander wands that the spell was deflected. To say nothing of the fact that he tried to kill Harry to begin with when he was a baby. And all the talk that Dumbledore has done about one of them having to die.
No, there's far, far too much evidence that Voldemort wants Harry dead for me to believe he'd bother turning him into a Horcrux, even if such a thing was possible, which I'm not convinced of to start with.
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One of the things that most convinces me that Snape is likely good, is the way Rowling wrote the end of that book. She left too much unsaid when Dumbledore died. I am convinced that he is permanently dead, but if she wanted to unveil Snape as being evil, she could have had Dumbledore say something like, "Please, Severus, don't kill me. Think about what you're doing," etc. You know, something along the lines he was saying to Malfoy.
Instead, he just pleads, but she never writes what he is pleading for. I think she would have not left Dumbledore's pleadings so vague and unresolved unless she was purposely preparing us for more information later. If Snape did turn out to be evil, and truly killed Dumbledore for evil reasons, I think she would have made his pleadings more specific.
Plus, I just see Rowling as the type of writer who would love to portray Snape as rotten through the whole series, only to have him being one of the most devoted allies to Dumbledore and the cause.
Then again, I can also see her being the type to purposely show that even the greatest people, like Dumbledore, can make mistakes, i.e., his trust in Snape.
So, I guess I'm not fully convinced that Snape is good, but I'm leaning that way.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:That said, I do have to admit that the line about Snape having hate and loathing on his face as he killed Dumbledore is hard to get around. It would be nice if that were self-hate and self-loathing, as TomDavidson suggested, but that requires inserting the word "self" into the text. And that isn't what the author said.
(Actually, what the author said was, "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.")
Rakeesh pointed this out earlier, but I want to emphasize it--the HP books are by and large 3rd person limited. That means that everything we see is essentially from Harry's POV. To Harry, Snape's expression would look exactly the same, whether he was feeling revulsion toward Dumbledore or revulsion toward what he knew he had to do.
That's part of why I think Snape's on the side of good. Harry HATES Snape, and we are constantly and almost exclusively seeing Snape through Harry's eyes, which makes it a lot harder to buy Dumbledore's unshakeable faith.
I do love the fact that I'm not completely sure, though! If I were sure, I wouldn't be looking forward so much to #7.
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I didn't say that the horcrux scar would be purposeful, or even known to Voldemort. If the scar is a horcrux, it was an accident. And it's very suspicious that the scar has all these magical connections to Voldemort...
I whole-heartedly agree with the point that the books are written from Harry's perspective. We don't know what that expression on Snape's face was all about. (Is there any possibility the two were communicating non-verbally, given that they could both do legilimency?) Particularly given his continued anger after killing Dumbledore, I think Snape's feelings were directed toward himself (and Dumbledore, for putting him in this situation). Snape's behavior afterward is completely inconsistent with him being on Voldemort's side.
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Alright, I'm willing to believe that a living creature can be a horcrux, as Dumbledore suggested Nagini might be one, but from what I've read, I'm led to believe that they are purposefully created, as in, one has to cast a spell to specifically take the split part of the soul and encase it in something else, making an accidental horcrux in Harry impossible.
The close link between Harry and Voldemort, similiar to that of Nagini and Voldemort, IS suspect, but I don't see why he would be so actively involved in trying to kill Harry if he knew, and I don't see how it could be accidentally created when knowledge is required to make it happen, otherwise they'd be created all the time whenever a murder happened.
I don't believe it could be an accident, not when so much effort has gone into figuring out how to do it, and knowledge of how to do it is held by so few.
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I don't really think Harry's scar is a horcrux, but I do believe it is possible. If Voldemort was creating a horcrux with the death of the Potters, he may have been doing the spell over James death before he tried to kill Harry and that's how the scar happened and became a horcrux. He would have been making something else (possibly even Nagini) the horcrux when something went wrong with Harry.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:This kind of goes along the lines of "the end justifies the means" which does not seem to be something that Rowling is preaching. In fact, she lambasted the ministry of magic multiple times for doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons.
Sure, but those 'right' reasons were basically a human-dominated Wizarding World. We have yet to see an example in Rowling's work of ends justifying the means applied towards good means...
Well, actually we haven't. Dumbledore, for instance, has deliberately deceived (or at least permitted him to remain ignorant/incorrect) Harry on numerous instances.
I also think you're neglecting to take into account, as BlackBlade mentions, Snape's pretty clear 'practical instruction' of Harry.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I've been thinking this all over, and I am convinced things will proceed as follows in the last book:
Harry will come to terms with the fact that Dumbledore is never coming back.
He begins to see no good reason to fighting for good: his parents are dead, his godfather is dead, his indestructable mentor is dead, and his school is shut down-the one place in the world he truly loved and felt at home. So, in essence, he has lost all family and his home. He only has his friends, and he feels he must go on alone without them.
Harry goes after Voldemort and Snape, but no longer for the right reasons. He simply wants revenge.
Harry is unable to find Snape before he comes across the Dark Lord. Voldemort brings Harry to the brink of death, but realizes that Harry has been emotionally broken. He offers to spare Harry if he will join him, and then promises to let Harry get the one other thing he wants (besides Voldy's death): Snape's death.
See, by this point, Voldemort has realized that Snape is good, and has been pretending to serve Him. Voldemort knows that Harry is a powerful ally, and that offering to let Harry take out Snape will motivate Harry to join him, since he has nothing else to live for.
So, blinded by rage at being defeated by Voldemort, and by a seething desire to kill Snape, Harry agrees to kill Snape with the Dark Lord's help.
Harry makes some unbreakable vows that ensure he is true to Voldemort. When he confronts Snape, Snape explains to Harry why he killed Dumbledore and that it was part of an agreement he and Dumbledore had made. He tries to convince Harry to leave Voldemort.
Harry cannot overcome his anger and distrust of Snape. Plus, he has made some vows to Voldemort. He and Snape go at it, and Voldemort has provided Harry with some tricks to defeat Snape. Just as he is about to, Ron, Hermione and Ginny show up to save the day, expecting to save Harry. They are then confronted with the fact that Harry is now serving evil.
Harry tells them they will have to kill him if he does not kill Snape, because of the vows he made. After much tension and debate and soul-searching, Ron is brought to the point of deciding to kill Harry. With his wand, drawn, Voldemort shows up, having been keeping an eye on things. A battle breaks out, in which Harry stands unsure of what to do, while the others fight. Snape eventually delivers the curse that kills Voldemort (keeping in mind that Harry would have destroyed the Horcruxes by this point in the story, before he originally confronts Voldemort).
Harry, still bound by his vows, is faced with killing Snape (who he still doesn't trust, and still hates) or dying.
To put him out of his misery, Hermione gets up the courage and kills Harry....
...only to later find out that Harry had created, with Voldy's help, a couple Horcruxes for himself, and some new ones for Voldy. They learn that Harry had to kill people to do this (some of the other vows not specifically mentioned until this point), so they know he is now evil and they must seek out the Horcruxes and destroy them.
So, Snape, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny set out on a quest to destroy Harry & Voldemort's horcruxes, thus spawning a new series where Harry is the villain, along with the Dark Lord, and his friends must destroy him.
Though, of course, they will turn him, at the end of the series, to the good side again, in a story of redemption not unlike that of Anakin and Vader.
You heard it here first. Posts: 32 | Registered: Dec 2006
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I think at the end of Six, Harry has at least accepted the fact that Dumbledore is dead, and furthermore, I think throughout the entire series, he's ALWAYS wanted revenge for what happened to his parents. Dude has some serious anger issues.
Other than that, sounds entirely plausible to me Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:I think it's about as likely as finding out that Voldemort was James' father.
JKR has explicitly stated that this is not the case. IIRC, it was with a comment to the effect of "No, it's not Star Wars!" Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If Eragon continues the way it started, I think we'll soon find out that Galbatorix is Eragon's father.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I expect Ginny to die, Ron to be tempted by evil, Malfoy to be tempted by good (and die), and Neville to save the day at least once.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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For some reason, the Emperor's March keeps running through my head.
About the only thing I could buy in there was that Harry will initially want to go after Snape and Voldemort for the wrong reasons -- out of a sense of revenge. I think he will discover the right reasons by the end of the book, when he learns how he must harnass the power he has that the dark lord has not.
I think the book will start out with Harry returning to the Dursley's with Ron and Hermione (since that's what they said at the end of the last book). While there, he and the Dursleys are attacked by Voldemort's followers and Dudley manages to pull off some magic. (Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life -- I've narrowed this character down to Dudley or Filch, since she specifically said it wasn't Aunt Petunia. I'm leaning towards Dudley, though. Anyone else have a thought?)
After that I figure they'll go to Bill's wedding and there will be some awkwardness between Harry and Ginny.
I don't think the book will spend a lot of time page time focusing on the search for the Horcruxes, although that will be the backdrop for everything that does happen. The reason I think this is that a pae after page search for artifacts just isn't going to be that interesting. I think R.A.B. (whoever that is) will do some of the legwork for Harry.
I think Hogwarts will reopen, but that harry, Ron, and Hermoine will not attend. I think that whoever lands the Defense Against the Dark Arts job will actually still be there next year.
As for Snape...one thing I've been wondering about his character is whether he's really on anyone's side but his own. Ever since the 4th book when it became clear that he worked as a spy for Voldemort, I couldn't hep but notice that his double agent role gave him the perfect opportunity to choose which side he had "really" been on when he saw the winner. My suspicion is that in the sixth book, he was forced into a situation where he had to choose early. I've also wondered, basd on him dubbing himself "The Half-Blood Prince," if he doesn't have greater ambition than being Voldemort's most trusted servant. Just something I was thinking about...
Will be fun to find out, whatever happens.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Malfoy to be tempted by good
Nah. If you mean Draco, I think he'll remain what he has been since the very first book: A complete and utter coward beneath the attitude.
(Though he just may die. I just sincerely doubt he has it in him to feel much beyond vanity and fear.)
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I think it's about as likely as finding out that Voldemort was James' father.
I'm still holding out for not Voldemort, but Snape. That is, I'd bet my farm that the man we know as Snape is James Potter, because of a soul switch or whatever other cause comes up. I've gone into why elsewhere, and I won't bore folk to tears here again.
But, you know, it would be a clever thing to have written a whole other story than the one we thought we were reading. All the references to Harry looking so much like James, the pride in Harry that Snape despises and tries to viciously weed out -- I think Rowling intends us all to have to reread the whole thing all over again as a different story.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Liz, Snape is shamed and loathes that Harry saw "his" childhood. Does the Snape you know seem like a man who would be unmanned by a boy seeing him having been taunted as a boy? Would it really do him in? Snape's a steely jerk who's had a lifetime of perfecting the withering glance. I think he was shamed that Harry saw James being a horrid little twit -- that was the first time Harry had his idealization of his father questioned, much less shattered. I can see that unmanning a grown man, however hardened.
I think "Snape" loathes what he sees of himself that brought about Lily's ruin -- the pride, the arrogance -- when he sees it in Harry.
And all the freakin' references to "you look so much like your father, Harry!" over and over and over again. It reeks of misdirection to me.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Plus, I can't help but think that soul switching would be a pretty dark art.
I will give you points for creativity, though!
Again, who said it was voluntary?
But I'm happy to sit and wait patiently for the actual denouement. I merely want my particular hat to be seen in the ring beforehand, just in case I'm right. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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I expect Tom is correct on at least 3 of 4.
CT, I recall your full explanation of your theory. I still think what I did then -- very clever, very detailed, but I don't believe it. Partly because my answer to
quote:Does the Snape you know seem like a man who would be unmanned by a boy seeing him having been taunted as a boy?
is YES. Every thing in his life, his sense of self and of purpose derive from his determination to never be that weak again. That is why he fell in with Voldemort. It is why he hates the connection he has with Dumbledore, who knows him down to his soul and loves, respects, and trusts him anyway. It is a form of weakness. And Snape despises weakness, most especially in himself.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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CT- Have you read Blood Magic by Gateway Girl?
The plot isn't quite what you describe, but Snape is Harry's father. I think you would enjoy it. It's very well-written.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Does the Snape you know seem like a man who would be unmanned by a boy seeing him having been taunted as a boy? Would it really do him in? Snape's a steely jerk who's had a lifetime of perfecting the withering glance.
Just because someone rarely (if ever) displays certain emotions outwardly, it doesn't mean they do not have them. Voice of experience and master at repressing emotions speaking here.
I think he was shamed that Harry saw James being a horrid little twit -- that was the first time Harry had his idealization of his father questioned, much less shattered. I can see that unmanning a grown man, however hardened.
This only works if one ignores the many, many, -many- times Snape has talked trash to Harry about James Potter...especially in book three, where he openly told Harry that James was part of a plot to do Snape harm, and only saved Snape out of fear of being caught.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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*sighs* I really mourn for the days of the third book. Life was so much simpler when Snape was just a big poophead and Sirius and James were Good Guys and everything was fine.
Posts: 910 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Christine said: "Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life "
The person I think this is most likely to be is Petunia Dursley. She is the sister of Lily, who was a witch, and thus has the potential for having some powers herself, if she is forced by extreme circumstances to set aside her lifelong denial of magical powers. She already knows something about the wizarding world. When Harry told them that Dementors had attacked Dudley (in book 5, was it?), she seemed to know what that meant, what Dementors were.
I sure would like to see Vernon's face when his wife works magic.
Of course, it could be Dudley, too, since he is the child of the sister of a witch. But for him it would not be "late in life." Again, Petunia does fit this. Plus, JKR has spent too much time making a buffoon out of Dudley, second only to Vernon.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I believe what JK Rowling actually said regarding Petunia is that she is not a Squib, although I might be mistaken.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Christine said: "Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life "
The person I think this is most likely to be is Petunia Dursley.
Read a little more of the post of mine that you quoted and you will see the very reason I did not choose Petunia...Rowling already said it wasn't her. Aside from that I would have totally agreed with your logic. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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If JKR said that Petunia is not a squib, then that is a dead giveaway. She must actually be a witch in denial. Maybe as a child she found her power was much less than Lily's, and resentfully chose to deny magic altogether, since that was the thing that she appears to have believed elevated Lily in their parents' sight.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I expect the one performing magic to be Mrs Figg, the cat lady. Unless I'm forgetting something major, which is possible.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ron, JKR has said that "Aunt Petunia has never performed magic, nor will she ever be able to do so."
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Ron -- in an interview I read on mugglenet, JKR specifically said that Petunia was not the person who would perform magic late in life in the same breath that she said someone would. I'd quote it for you, but I can't see to access mugglenet today. Trust me, it's not Petunia. It's a shame, really. I would kind of rather it be her. It would be fitting after her years of jealousy and what not. I figure it's Dudley, though, because he does share blood with Petunia and Lily.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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*taptaptap* Is this thing on? It's not Petunia. JKR disputed that on her website. There's a link.
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