posted
Squicky, you have as usual missed the entire point, read everything wrong, and can't break out of the view you've convinced yourself is true.
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MPH: I don't think that's true, any more than on a regular day. Not for everyone. Really, only one person's opinion counts for this. If your wife would like something, then that's her - hers is the only opinion you have to consider.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:not doing anything for your honey on VDay will usually be interpreted as is an expression of not-love.
It's no different than the position of the toilet seat, IMO.
:shrug:
I think that if couples actually talked about their expectations for V-day instead of just assuming that the other person should do X, they'd learn to love it more.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I don't believe I have ever gotten roses or chocolates on Feb. 14th, and I've not felt slighted.
Oh wait -- one year I got a silk flower arrangement including roses from a guy who was sort of stalking me. Does that count?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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For myself, I love the idea of having a nice Valentine's Day. So...I planned a nice Valentine's Day. I asked Matt if he had thought about getting me anytying, and then proposed a dollar limit, and offered to fix dinner. This is important to me, but I'm not waiting for him to read my mind and make it happy. I just want his cooperation. When things are important to him, it works the other way, and I go. Except to the Tenacious D movie.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:I don't believe I have ever gotten roses or chocolates on Feb. 14th, and I've not felt slighted.
My comment about the roses and chocolates was hyperbole, I admit it. But still, doing something sweet and romantic is pretty much the baseline.
quote:I think that if couples actually talked about their expectations for V-day instead of just assuming that the other person should do X, they'd learn to love it more.
quote:Squicky, you have as usual missed the entire point, read everything wrong, and can't break out of the view you've convinced yourself is true.
How so? All I'm doing is asking you to answer my questions. I don't see how forcing someone to celebrate or at least hold them accountable for not celebrating a day that they have serious problems with is any less self-centered than someone not celebrating a day they have serious problems with because it will make the other person happy. Could you explain why I am incorrect?
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I'm not expecting anything to come of this, but could I again ask you stop throwing personal insults at me?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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You have missed the entire point because I have never advocated and have in fact decried both force and holding someone accountable for actions not taken. Keep that in your RAM, and reread my posts.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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OK, so while we're at it, which day is more important to the romantically inclined--Valentine's Day or Sweetest Day? I prefer the latter. At least it does not invoke some saint I do not believe in, as a Protestant.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:You have missed the entire point because I have never advocated and have in fact decried both force and holding someone accountable for actions not taken. Keep that in your RAM, and reread my posts.
But you seem to me to be saying that people who don't celebrate Valentine's day when their girlfriend wants them to have personal flaws. I am attempting to present the flipside of that argument, which is that the girlfriend and other people (like yourself) saying that they should do this or are flawed people because they don't are showing at least an equal level of disrespect for their feelings.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: My condolences to anyone whose birthday is February 14.
Thank you. But that's not necessary -- really. ;-)
Most of the February 14ths of my life have been spectacular failures from the Valentine's Day perspective. But people pay attention to me anyway and make me feel special because it's my birthday! Plus they're more likely to remember it.
I have one horrible/wonderful Valentine's/Bday memory. It was the year that I was living in the DC area and had recently broken up w/ a guy from Richmond I'd been involved with quite seriously. He then proceeded to begin dating a girl from my own group of friends--she wasn't a particularly close friend, but it was still a pretty humiliating experience in a lot of ways that are hard for me to explain. (I couldn't figure out why he couldn't find someone else near him to date--he had to pick someone from my close-knit little group?) Anyway, I was in a depression over it and I'm pretty transparent so EVERYONE knew how I was feeling which was totally embarrassing to me.
So anyway, a friend of mine invited me over to her apartment for dinner for my bday. Well, turned out there was a blizzard that day and I called and said, "look, I'll have to dig my car out and the conditions are really dangerous out there, can I just take a rain check?" When she got practically hysterical on me over that idea, I clued in that there was a surprise party in the works, which was the last thing on earth I was in the mood for, but I dutifully showed up anyway.
So there I sat, as all these friends braved that storm and showed up for my birthday (minus the ex and the girl he was dating), and I figured they would never have gone to all that trouble if they hadn't felt so darned sorry for me! And I felt like a fool, and like I was depressed and didn't want a party anyway, but I must say -- I don't know if I've ever felt so loved.
(yes, it was a long time ago and I'm over it and on friendly terms w/ all concerned; it was just a lot of drama at the time.)
My only traumatic elementary school Valentine's Day experience pales in comparison w/ Tante's, but I'll share it anyway. My 2nd grade teacher had the requisite calendar up in the front of the classroom, featuring holdays, important dates, and the names of the students written in on the date of their birthday. There was a boy in the class with the same birthday as mine, so on Feb. 14 there was a big heart for Valentine's Day with the names Duane and Kristina written under it. We were teased mercilessly that month. It didn't help that I was painfully shy and Duane was cute and I had a crush on him!
*Surreptiously stuffs lots of Valentines in Tante's box. And burns her stupid teacher in effigy.* (Honestly, who lets these sadist types teach sensitive little children, anyway? I was SO lucky that I was never had an elementary teacher like that.)
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Keeping score between sweethearts is a bad idea.
Seriously, it can be resolved the same way all other differences between a couple gets resolved. I suspect the chances are better when no one is counting the costs.
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The only V-Day I remember in elementary school was when I worked up the courage to put the hearts with letters that spelled out L-O-V-E in Jeffrey Stalling's box in fourth grade. I was on edge for the rest of the day, seeing if he could decipher the clue and realize he loved me too. Of course he didn't - I can't believe I thought that would work. And then my friend Alia started kissing him and that clue he got, so so much for me. *dramatic sigh* I kept the crush all the way until sixth grade, when he started talking to me and showed me how he could play the drums with his pencils. I realized, to my horror, that he was kind of an idiot, and poof! the crush was gone.
Evil moral of the story: Don't let the eye candy talk.
quote:Originally posted by Mike: But Jhai, it worked out, right? Maybe it was partly because he was ambiguous about the date-nature of the invitation. :)
Yea, I'm all about the ambiguity... the girl pretty much can't say "no, i'm not gonna hang out with you" and pretty much from there on, you just nudge your way all the way to getting married and living happily ever after :)
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: True story, one of my most mortifying and traumatic childhood experiences revolves around Valentines Day.
Have we discussed this before or do I know lots of people who did this and got caught? Cause this is sounding really familiar!
I bought cookies to send to the school with my 10 year old, because her class will have a little party but they won't allow home-made stuff anymore. I offered to buy or bake something for the teenager's lunch table and her boyfriend, but she refused. Tomorrow night the 10 year old and I will write cards for her classmates after dinner. We won't do anything for ourselves at home, though, and I don't have any type of significant other to celebrate with.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Expecting something on Valentine's Day is similar to expecting that the toilet seat be put down after use.
How you respond to something that your partner desires says a lot about who you are. How your partner communicates that desire says a lot about who they are.
The desire itself, for a Valentine's Day gift, or for a specific toilet seat position, is really insignificant.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
My boyfriend and I will exchange gifts (I got him something small, but I think he'll really enjoy it and it's something that he can either do by himself or we can do it together. He hasn't gotten mine yet, but that's because he's really picky with gifts and likes to get the perfect thing), and over the weekend we'll go wander through the farmers' market and probably bake cookies together. I tend to be so busy with school that we don't get to spend much time together. Even on weekends I have work to do all day and I like to get to bed by 11, so it doesn't leave much time to hang out.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:I agree with you, Squick, but I've met a whole lot of guys who said the same thing and then never did the romantic things the rest of the year. (Not saying you don't. I'm sure you do. I'm just saying, for other's benefit, that you can't say 'Hey, that's a great idea, I'm going to do that, too!" and then not follow through.)
It may just be me, but I'd have major trouble appreciating romantic gestures that I (and society) basically forced on someone. If the guy doesn't want to do it, do girls still really enjoy it? Is it really not the thought that counts? Or have they just gotten good at convincing themselves that the guy is being sincere?
Oh, I totally don't think anyone should make little romantic gestures if they don't want to, on Valentine's Day or any other time. It's just a personal pet peeve when I run into guys who make big speeches about how they don't celebrate Valentine's Day because it doesn't mean anything when your culturally expected to do it and they do sweet things randomly throughout the year and that's so much better. . . and then they don't. I've encountered this multiple times, it's not at all unusual. And you know what? I'm completely fine with not getting flowers and candy at Valentine's Day or any other time. Some people are good at the romantic stuff, some people aren't. Some people aren't but think it's important to their SO and so try anyway, some people show their love in other ways. It's all good. I just don't like it when people are hypocritical about it. Or maybe they mean it when they say it, and are just bad at follow-through. *shrug*
My current relationship is a long distance one, and we've agreed not to exchange gifts for birthdays, Christmas, or Valentine's Day. I'd much rather the money be spent on plane tickets. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Oh, I get that. Being a guy, it's not something I've ever encountered, but I'm very big on the authenticity in relationships.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:I run into guys who make big speeches about how they don't celebrate Valentine's Day because it doesn't mean anything when your culturally expected to do it and they do sweet things randomly throughout the year and that's so much better. . . and then they don't.
They don't need to -- they fulfilled that obligation, kicking and screaming, on Valentine's Day. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
That's part I don't like - the kicking and screaming. If someone really doesn't want to do anything for that day, I'd hope they'd talk it over with the person that would be affected by that decision. If they DO decide to do something, then I hope it wouldn't it be done begrudgingly.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well, my husband is under strict instructions not o so much as mention V-Day to me. He has successfully done this for four years now, so I don't see any reason for it to change this year.
It's not just men who think it's a worthless holiday. Of course, I've got desperately bad memories from my school days that I will probably never get over and don't feel like posting on a public message board. Suffice to say that Tante's experience is not entirely unique (although I have to say that a teacher having a competition to see who has the most friends is about the most irresponsible thing I've heard yet).
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Squicky, what you quoted belied what you said. Yes, I stand by what I said. There are clues in there that might tip you off as to the conditions required. Read closely. They're there. Don't get discouraged. Reading comprehension is hard, I know.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Hey, you know what else reminds me of being in the fourth grade?
Take a guess.
If someone knows that their partner desires something reasonable; if that person honestly loves their partner; if that partner communicates that desire in a way that is comfortable and for both parties; then for the one to NOT give to the other IS self-centered.
I think all these qualifications were implied in Kat's orginal statement.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Unless your spouse/girlfriend/whatever tells you she's allergic to one and doesn't want the other. Seriously.
(Not that my husband would get me roses now that he knows about the allergy-- although my parents can't remember it, he has to live with me, so can and does. And my dad already ruined the no-chocolate resolution this year. But I was just reading the blog of a poor woman who is allergic to chocolate and EVERY YEAR her husband gets chocolate anyway, goes, "Oh, you're allergic? Oh." and then EATS IT IN FRONT OF HER. Oy.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
kat, I'm sorry. I thought that it was clear that I was implying that their girlfriends would not be enthusiastically consenting with their decision. I didn't think that people would think I was describing a situation where they said "Honey, I don't think we should do something for Valentine's." and she responded with "Yeah, that sounds good."
I was thinking that they explained that they didn't want to do anything and were not met with enthusiastic consent. I thought that would be clear to people reading it, but I guess I should have specified.
Let me ammend my statement to: And if they, not receiving the enthusiastic consent of their girlfriend, decide not to do something, you consider them "horribly self-centered".
Do you stand behind that?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:If someone knows that their partner desires something reasonable; if that person honestly loves their partner; if that partner communicates that desire in a way that is comfortable and for both parties; then for the one to NOT give to the other IS self-centered.
posted
Mr.Squicky, part of a relationship is compromise. Another is deciding whether your partner's wishes and needs are more than yours on an issue and making a decision to go with what they want sometimes. So maybe the solution where one partner wants it and the other doesn't is to decide who will be more hurt, the person who has to celebrate it or the person who doesn't get to because of the other's wishes, and then come to a compromise (we will do something special at home, but not go out or buy presents, thereby avoiding the things my partner hates most about V-day; or we will celebrate every other year; or some similar compromise.) If one person absolutely can't make some concession to the other's wish to celebrate a holiday that's important to him or her, I do think that is self-centered.
My husband never celebrated St. Patrick's day in any way growing up, and could really care less about it. It's important to me that we eat a special meal that day and have a few other traditions, so since I'm the one who does the cooking, he goes along with it. I realize that's not totally analogous, but it's something I appreciate because he's not into it and would just as soon not celebrate as celebrate, but he does it for me.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:If someone knows that their partner desires something reasonable; if that person honestly loves their partner; if that partner communicates that desire in a way that is comfortable and for both parties; then for the one to NOT give to the other IS self-centered.
And I guess I'm still waiting for someone to explain why someone saying "I want to do X." trumps the other saying "I don't want to do X." I can see if there are differences in degree (e.g. "I really want to do X." vs. "I don't particularly want to do X."), but all I'm seeing is that wanting trumps not wanting. And I don't see how that is.
In other threads we've touched on the etiquitte of physical contact between people and the general consensus seems to be the opposite of this idea. That is, peopel who desire physical contact with their friends and loved ones should respect these people's desire not to be touched. Where is the dividing line for these things?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
In addition to doing something that will make your partner happy, you CAN actually choose to love what she wants you to do.
In line with KQ's St. Patrick's day story, my wife and her family have huge family get togethers at Christmas. HUGE with a capital BIG. I'm not a big fan of get-togethers; neither is my family. But I decided early on in our relationship that there was nothing harmful in them; they were all pretty pleasant people; and why SHOULDN'T I have a good time with mostly harmless, pleasant people?
I should, dangit, and I do.
Now, whether they enjoy me is debatable.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It's that word "trumps." You're not competing - this isn't a power struggle. If people in a relationship start counting the cost, then I think that is self-centered. On a practical level, it is also a bad idea, because making someone else important in your life - more important than yourself a lot of the time - DOES cost, and the payoff isn't always as apparent. Especially if someone is feeling aggrieved.
No one can choose what the other person will do - only what they will do. It doesn't matter what the other person is choosing to do - deliberatly ignoring a reasonable desire on the part of one's partner, after it has been communicated decently, is self-centered.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Because not getting something you want (this includes attention, not just physical things, and is referring to specifically in a relationship) is almost always more disappointing than getting something you don't want.
If my husband hated a holiday SO MUCH that it trumped my love of the holiday and need to carry on and create traditions (I'm very into little rituals and traditions in our family), I would probably give in and not do it. But I just don't see someone absolutely hating any holiday quite that much. And honestly, I wouldn't have married someone who hated any holiday that much, it seems a little weird. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Mr.Squicky, part of a relationship is compromise. Another is deciding whether your partner's wishes and needs are more than yours on an issue and making a decision to go with what they want sometimes.
Have I not been clear that I do in fact have a problem with Valentine's Day?
I don't have a problem with comprimise. As far as I can see, what is getting offered here is not comprimise, but rather condemnation of the person who doesn't want to go along with Valentine's Day and disregard for their feelings, because if they loved the other person, they'd shut up and do it for them. Which, to me at least, suggests the question, shouldn't the other person be under a similar obligation to respect their partner's wishes to not want to do this thing, to forego something they enjoy because their love for their partner? I'm being told apparently not and I don't understand what the difference is.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
You can't choose what the other person will do - only what you will do.
If you plan on expressing affection the rest of the year anyway, why not the rest of the year + one day?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:No one can choose what the other person will do - only what they will do. It doesn't matter what the other person is choosing to do - deliberatly ignoring a reasonable desire on the part of one's partner, after it has been communicated decently, is self-centered.
So, if someone expressed the reasonable desire to not celebrate Valentine's day, would you agree that it is self-centered to ignore this? In which case, how do you justify saying that, after having a conversation about this where the boyfriend expresses that he doesn't want to do it and the girlfriend expresses that she does, the boyfriend is always self-centered when he doesn't do anything.
To me a situation like that would involve compromise, not saying that the one person is always self-centered.
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quote:Because not getting something you want (this includes attention, not just physical things, and is referring to specifically in a relationship) is almost always more disappointing than getting something you don't want.
That's a god-awful type of reasoning when extended to many other areas. The boyfriend wants sex. The girlfriend doesn't. Is she self-centered for saying no?
Or take my physical contact example. Are you saying that people should be considered self-centered if they don't go along with their friends and loved ones desire for physical contact? That would put you at odds with nearly all the people who posted in those threads.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I don't like valentines day. I just want a box of chocolate.
Of course, my hubby has taken my lax attitude and abused it. He's making me go to a (explitive) Golden State Warriors game on Valentine's day.
What the (explitive) is going through that man's (explitive) brain??
My guess is that he was thinking that you don't like Valentine's Day and just want a box of chocolate.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Do you really object to expressing affection? Maybe if you didn't think of it as Valentine's Day - just an ordinary Wednesday. Would that make being nice to your girlfriend palatable?
Maybe this is the crux: No, I don't think a desire to withhold affection from a romantic partner because you're mad at society - to the point that you're willing to make her unhappy - is reasonable.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:You can't choose what the other person will do - only what you will do.
I have no idea why that is relevant to what I said, which was about the competing obligations inherent in a situation where one person wants to do something and the other doesn't. This is again something that would apply on both sides. The wanting person can choose their actions just as well as the non-wanting person. Why is the non-wanting person always self-centered if the couple goes with the non-doing option while the wanting person isn't enthusiatically consenting to this?
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If someone really doesn't want to do anything for that day, I'd hope they'd talk it over with the person that would be affected by that decision. If they DO decide to do something, then I hope it wouldn't it be done begrudgingly.
