posted
kat, Because apparently it is my fault for not backing down when you act nasty, I'm not going to respond with my normal attempting to get you to justify your remarks. I don't, however, have a problem responding to you if you can treat me respectfully and I'll again ask you to do so, if not for me, then for the sake of Hatrack.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Again, Valentine's Day is a convenient, set day on which you can pretty much assume you're going to spend time together. Just like his birthday, my birthday, our anniversary, Halloween, and my graduation. I mean, are you opposed to the celebration of birthdays and anniversaries?
quote:Again, Valentine's Day is a convenient, set day on which you can pretty much assume you're going to spend time together.
There have been people on this very thread who have posted about how it is not a convenient day for them and that they aren't going to be able to do things today.
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Do you think I have a problem with birthdays and the like? If so, why do you think this? If not, why are you asking me if I do?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Again, Valentine's Day is a convenient, set day on which you can pretty much assume you're going to spend time together.
There have been people on this very thread who have posted about how it is not a convenient day for them and that they aren't going to be able to do things today.
Well, FOR US, it's a great, convenient day. But we celebrate everything. We gave each other gifts for Halloween. And you didn't answer me...are you against celebrating birthdays and anniversaries?
posted
Of course not. I don't think you understand my reasons for disliking much of the common cultural aspect of Valentine's Day.
I edited above to ask you why you think that I would, but I did it too late. I'm editing here to ask you to explain why you think that. Maybe I can figure out where the misunderstanding crept in if you explain.
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posted
I never said that I did. Actually, I'll admit that I honestly do not understand why you detest Valentine's Day so much.
The reason I ask is that you seem to think that Valentine's obligates one to do special things that you think should be done regardless of a certain day. In that case, why celebrate an anniversary or a birthday? Those are certain days in which special treatment is often expected.
posted
I strongly sympathize with Squicky on this, even though apparently no one else does.
I've spent the last couple of weeks rather stressed out because Valentine's Day was coming. I never know what to get or do, but obviously I have to do something because otherwise I'll look like an selfish, insensitive jerk.
But my objection is not just that it's a tacky, commercialized holiday. My objection is that, to me, it's not a holiday about love. It's about pressure. "If you really love someone, you'll do x." And that makes me resentful, because I don't think anyone has the right to tell me how or when to express my love.
I think that at some point the stress, resentment, and other objections have got to outweigh whatever extra love is shown on Valentine's Day. At some point it must no longer be worth it. But so far it seems that everyone has just told Squick that it's always worth it, that he should just suck it up and celebrate the holiday anyway, no matter how he feels. And I just can't agree with that.
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posted
The distinction appears to be the significant other's desires versus what are perceived as society's expectations.
If I happen to celebrate Valentine's Day in a given year, it's because the person I'm with likes it and wants to celebrate it, not because of anyone else's ("society's") expectations. My antipathy toward Valentine's Day isn't strong enough to merit asking that we not celebrate it -- at least, not at this point. That might change.
I'm more into random acts of affection, anyway.
Added:
I also think you've mischaracterized the debate somewhat.
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: But so far it seems that everyone has just told Squick that it's always worth it, that he should just suck it up and celebrate the holiday anyway, no matter how he feels.
What I, at least, have suggested is that people should talk about whether or not they want to celebrate Valentine's Day (and birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, Pi Day, whatever) with their partners, and come to a consensus, rather than just saying "I don't like Valentine's Day, so we aren't going to celebrate it."
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I have to admit that Jon Boy is making sense, even though I haven't seen one post of Squicky's that really made me want to change my mind. I think the reason for that is that Squicky opposes V-Day on principle, whereas it's a stressful thing for Jon Boy. So, it's insensitive of me to expect Jon Boy to celebrate when it makes him so miserable, but it isn't insensitive of theoretical girl who likes V-Day to expect her theoretical boyfriend to celebrate it even though he thinks it's silly and pointless.
I don't know if that made any sense. Basically, my opinion is that the person with the stronger feelings about any given topic is the one who should "win" the argument about the topic. In the case of V-Day, "It makes me feel loved" trumps "It's silly and pointless" but loses to "It makes me feel miserable."
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quote:Basically, my opinion is that the person with the stronger feelings about any given topic is the one who should "win" the argument about the topic.
I agree with this to a point, and that point is when one person in a relationship has stronger feelings about everything. I've seen relationships where one person is pretty laid back and the other is pretty intense. I don't think that means that the intense one should always get their way, because they have stronger feelings about everything. There has to be an awareness of rough equity, where each side is compromising sometimes, even if it means one party ends up not getting what they want on something they do feel more strongly about, because they've gotten what they wanted in the last four compromises running.
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posted
Fair enough. I guess that scenario didn't occur to me because Jon Boy and I are pretty equally laid back, just about different things, but I can see that happening.
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posted
I've been on both sides of it, actually. I've been in a lot of relationships. It can be an interesting thing to try to balance, especially if the parties aren't equally aware of when it's happening. I've also observed it in others, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. To my biased eyes, of course.
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posted
Valentine's Day. Bah! Humbug! If I could work my will, every idiot who goes about with "Happy Valentine's Day" on her lips should be boiled with her own chocolate, and buried with a dozen roses through her heart. She should!
(Not that I'm bitter, or anything. )
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Tony almost bought me half a house for Valentine's Day.
Well, half a mortgage.
But our offer wasn't accepted.
(If it was, guess what Tony's present from me would have been....?)
**
I suspect Valentine's Day hasn't quite reached the level here that it has in the US yet (though I suspect it's on the way). But it's not abnormal not to do anything here. At least in my view.
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posted
I had a great day. I made dinner, got flowers, gave Matt a movie (Upside: I picked a movie he would love. Downside: He loves it so much he already had it. ), and we watched one of the few romantic comedies we both love - Keeping the Faith.
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posted
I am so glad that I don't have to worry about VDay for another ~360 days.
Although I think that next time, I'm going to try to steal somebody's briliant idea again. That worked much better than the crap I can come up with on my own.
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quote:"It makes me feel loved" trumps "It's silly and pointless" but loses to "It makes me feel miserable."
Again, you are only looking at this from the point of view you want to see it from. Doing the expected gifts, flowers, etc. are not the only way to only way to make people feel loved, nor is Valentine's the only day that these can be done.
Also, I think a relationship where you feel you get to decide how important or valid another person's feelings are about something is...less than optimal.
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posted
Then how does "This makes me feel loved." far outweigh the problems that people have with it?
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posted
No, never. I'm a terrible, terrible person.
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edit: What is it about doing these particular things on this particular day that makes it so overridingly important?
I can do other things on this day. I could do these things on other days. It'll make you feel loved plus you get the it's not negative for me. If you care about my feelings, shouldn't that at least be on the table?
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posted
I'm not saying you're a terrible person. I'm saying that everyone has probably done things they've had an issue with to make his/her partner feel loved. Why should this Valentine's Day thing be any different?
Have you never forgone something that you desired because your partner had a problem with it? What should this Valentine's Day thing be any different?
edit: Let me reflect it another way. It will make me feel loved if you respect my opinion on this Valentine's day thing and decide not to do it. How is me giving you things making you feel loved outweighing you respecting my feelings making me feel loved?
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posted
I'm not getting hostile. Or at least I don't feel hostile.
To be clear, I don't have a problem with people who have different desires compromising on this with a whole range of outcomes, many of which will include celebrating Valentine's. What I do have a problem with is the the idea that the girl's wants outweigh the boy's and that you can dismiss your partner's feelings. From my perspective, there's a reciprocal sitatuation here (edit: You'll notice that I keep taking people's justifications and reflecting them back from the other perspective). I keep getting told that it's not, but I've yet to get a answer as to why that is. Also, I've gotten a nice crop of insults and people ignoring or dismissing out of hand what I have to say.
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posted
Sure, I'm okay with pretending that this is a genderless issue. I think that's pretty silly, but I'm not about to make it a point of contention.
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posted
No it's not. Many of the traditional VDay observances, such as buying flowers, is not a genderless act. It's much more common for a guy to buy a girl flowers than visa versa.
Also, in general, the gals seem to find it more important that VDay be celebrated, while the guys are more likely to be resentful of it.
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posted
Don't feel like arguing it with you because I'm much more concerned with the other points. Let's just say we disagree.
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quote:What I do have a problem with is the the idea that the girl's wants outweigh the boy's
No one has said this. For the record, I believe Kat's statement when she said that her "he" back on page 1 was gender neutral.
quote: and that you can dismiss your partner's feelings.
Or this.
What has been said is that it is selfish to dismiss your partner's feelings, and that communication is necessary to establish what those feelings are.
quote: From my perspective, there's a reciprocal sitatuation here
Right-- I think some of us see this reciprocity as something akin to keeping score. You know, "Look, honey, I did this for you, so you have to do this for me, and then I'll do this for you..."
Or, "If you respect me, I'll respect you."
That system doesn't work well in maintaining a loving and caring relationship.
There's a great song by Mark Knopfler called "Nobody's Got the Gun" that speaks to this:
quote:She may not understand And she may want you eating from her hand If she's got you in a corner And you can smell the smoke and flame You reach for your revolver To do the same You'll blow your love away forever, number one Nobody's got the gun
I think the idea of reciprocity naturally leads to defensiveness and a kind of "I gotta get mine" attitude, especially if the couple doesn't have an attitude of forgiving established BEFORE they set up the attitude of reciprocity. I don't think that's healthy.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:What I do have a problem with is the the idea that the girl's wants outweigh the boy's and that you can dismiss your partner's feelings.
I'm coming into this conversation late, and I've not yet read through all six pages of posts, so please excuse me if this has been said so far.
But here's my question: isn't a relationship about a mutual give and take, and mutual sacrifice and caring and whatnot? To me, the ideal relationship is where each partner's primary concern is to spend time with/make happy the other partner. It's not just something they've decided to committ to, but it's something they just feel naturally like doing.
Do you agree or disagree with my ideal?
If you agree, what's wrong with just knuckling under, just a bit, to your partner's desire and the thing that makes her happy? Granted, it's one thing if it's always you doing the knuckling under. But it seems to me that what's being described is that she feels very, very good getting some of the traditional V-Day gifts and gestures. Let's say a 9/10. Whereas you, from what you've stated that I've seen so far, have a minor bordering on substantial resentment of the whole process, and feel your year-round gifts, gestures, and behaviors should exempt you on V-Day...from the obligation, at least. Let's say that's a -4/-10.
If I'm assigning the relative importance to each of you...why exactly is it a good thing for you not to do what she wants in this case, since it makes her feel a lot happier than it makes you feel irritated?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Again, you are only looking at this from the point of view you want to see it from. Doing the expected gifts, flowers, etc. are not the only way to only way to make people feel loved, nor is Valentine's the only day that these can be done.
No, it's you who can't see beyond your point of view. Which one of us agreed to compromise their point of view, after all?
No, celebrating Valentine's Day is not the only way to show love. But if it is a way to show love that is meaningful to one person in the relationship and the other person isn't made so miserable by the observation as to make up for the joy the other person gets out of it, then I think the other person should choose to show love in the way their partner wants them to, regardless of what else they do the other 364 days of the year. That's assuming that V-Day is important, which is what I'm assuming. It isn't always important. But we're talking about theoreticals here.
Also, I never said that celebrating Valentine's Day required gifts and flowers. That's not how I want it celebrated, actually.
So stop calling me self-centered when I'm just trying to be fair, okay?
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I like the way the Japanese do it. Valentine's Day, Februrary 14th, is a day for women to give chocolates to men. Then, a month later, on March 14, comes White Day, on which the men give chocolates to the women who gave them chocolates on Valentine's Day. The way I see it, that puts the ball in the woman's court every year. "Okay, honey, I'll be sweet and romantic and give you all the candy you want . . . but you first."
Of course, the danger in that, it seems to me, is that then the guy is in even more trouble if he doesn't reciprocate on White Day.
Admittedly, my interpretation of the custom does depend on the stereotype of women wanting to celebrate the day more than men do. But, let's be honest, that's usually the case, isn't it? I don't care for Valentine's Day, myself, but then, I've been single for eleven years. What is there in Valentine's Day that would interest me? If I had a girlfriend, at this point I'd celebrate anything she wanted me to. I'd observe Ramadan if it would score me points.
I've read recently that the South Koreans have taken it a step further. One month after White Day, on April 14, is Black Day, on which people who didn't get chocolates from anybody on either previous holiday gather together and eat noodles. That's the one I need.
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quote:Also, I think a relationship where you feel you get to decide how important or valid another person's feelings are about something is...less than optimal.
Okay, I've talked at length with Jon Boy, who thinks he understands what you're saying (and if he does, then I and others have been misunderstanding you, but then, you've been misunderstanding us too).
First off, does "you" refer to me, or is it ambiguous? Because if it's ambiguous, I agree with you; that relationship would be less than optimal. If you're referring to me and implying that in my relationship I claim the right to decide which of Jon Boy's feelings are valid, then that's really, really low of you to say. Because that's not at all what I was saying, and I think you know that. I was stating an opinion, which, last time I checked, I have the right to do. But maybe I misread, and maybe you were just speaking hypothetically.
Okay, now on to your actual points.
To start, let's make sure we're on the same page. Let's say we have a hypothetical couple, Jane and Ben. Ben thinks Valentine's Day is contrived and pointless. Jane loves it and has looked forward her whole life to being spoiled on that day: flowers, a romantic dinner, and then maybe spectacular sex at the end of it (if that's okay to say on a family forum).
You say that if Ben has strong feelings against Valentine's Day, Jane is insensitive and selfish to expect him to celebrate it.
Katharina and others say that if Ben doesn't celebrate Valentine's Day when she wants to so badly, he's insensitive and selfish.
Right?
The problem I'm seeing is this: while many of the people who side with Jane have admitted that there may be times when it would be appropriate for her to lower her expectations to save Ben the aggravation, you have never admitted that there may be times when it would be appropriate for Ben to suck it up and give Jane at least some of what she craves.
So what I'm hearing is that you think Jane should always give in to Ben. Which is every bit as bad as what you've accused me of saying (which is not what I actually was saying).
Maybe you didn't mean that. But you haven't said anything that gives me any other impression. So, if you don't mean that, please explain what you do mean.
Okay, point number two.
You have mentioned a girlfriend whom you say you do sweet, romantic things for throughout the year. To be perfectly honest, I think I would prefer that to having one day for romance. But to be perfectly honest, you are a rare man to do that. If guys did sweet, romantic things throughout the year, women probably wouldn't feel a need for Valentine's Day.
And I'm guessing that your girlfriend is fine with the arrangement. If so, good for her and good for you.
Also, if she felt like all your sweet, romantic acts throughout the year were voided by your lack of participation on Valentine's Day, I would call her selfish. However, I wouldn't call her selfish if she wanted you to celebrate Valentine's Day and told you so.
Now my final point.
There are more than the two black and white options available for Valentine's Day. While talking with Jon Boy about this last night, we decided that while the lasagna dinner I made last night was nice, and lighting candles and drinking cherry 7-Up in our crystal goblets (which someone gave us for our wedding but which we never use) was fun, he would rather leave the gift giving out of the celebration. I agreed that Valentine's Day could be fun without gifts, and we finished a rather pleasant discussion with an outcome we're both satisfied with: I get my romantic dinner and my fun, and he's spared the commercial aspects he hates.
So, my point there is that there doesn't actually have to be a "winner" or a "loser" in this case. Each couple should talk about what they expect or want from Valentine's Day, and then they can decide together how to celebrate in a way that will be enjoyable for both of them.
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It can be an interesting thing to try to balance, especially if the parties aren't equally aware of when it's happening. I've also observed it in others, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. To my biased eyes, of course.
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I made dinner, got flowers, gave Matt a movie (Upside: I picked a movie he would love. Downside: He loves it so much he already had it. 
