I'm sorry but I was honestly taken completely by surprise with Takei's take on Hardaway's rude remarks, I laughed pretty hard.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I've said this elsewhere, but I like the fact that Takei chose to respond to Hardaway's remarks with a humorous video. In a way this defuses the situation and exposes Hardaway as the bigot he is, with a sense of finality that an indignant press release wouldn't afford. Takei does however, have a bizarre sense of humour. His laugh at the end of the video wierded me out!
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posted
Although I like the idea of a humorous response, threatening rape doesn't seem like a very good response to hateful, bigoted commentary.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Surprise sex is not the same as rape, rape is no laughing matter, unless you're being raped by a clown, then it's ok to giggle, 'cause come on, it's funny.
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Surprise sex, by definition, has no explicit consent. Therefore, it is rape when there's no established sexual relationship of a sort to create a reasonable expectation of consent (and in some states, even this wouldn't be enough).
Such a relationship would clearly not exist if the sex happened when someone "least expects it," because the expectation is surely higher after the start of such a relationship.
posted
I didn't catch any hint of threat in Takei's video. The video was clearly a comedy. So, IMO, arguing about consent in this situation is ridiculous.
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posted
Of course it wasn't a real threat. I haven't said that it was. He did, however, "threaten" rape as the basis for his joke.
Had he been more explicit, (such as "I'm going to tie you up, take you home, and make sweet love to you all night long") I doubt anyone would defend him, even though no one would interpret that as an actual threat.
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posted
My take on it was that Takei was ridiculing the idea that gay people were a threat. The concept that Takei could rape Hardaway is pretty absurd.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Yeah, the "sex with you" part seemed odd to me, though I thought it was more an error in comic timing, or in the progression of the joke, than an inherent unfunniness because of the topic. The "we LOVE YOU" part of the joke was hilarious. It was a direct response to Hardaway, and spun around his comments in exactly the way that would make him most uncomfortable. But there was a point where Takei sort of stepped over the line, and reached too far for a laugh he'd already gotten. So it got less funny at the end. But not because I was offended. It was just inept jokecraft Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
"If you tried us, <eyebrow-waggling stare into the camera for two beats> you'd like us to" would have been a very funny way to close the bit.
It also would have more directly addressed the perceived "threat" among many male homophobes. I've never heard one talk about a fear of being raped, but I have heard many talk about how "they" want to "convert us." My proposed ending would have been directly on point.
One of the reasons I raised the point at all is that there's fairly common "concealed" rape in a lot of stand-up - situations that sound inoccuous but, when broken down, are actually nonconsensual sex. It's started to leap out at me recently. I haven't seen an example here before this, and seized the opportunity.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Of course it wasn't a real threat. I haven't said that it was. He did, however, "threaten" rape as the basis for his joke.
Had he been more explicit, (such as "I'm going to tie you up, take you home, and make sweet love to you all night long") I doubt anyone would defend him, even though no one would interpret that as an actual threat.
You're taking it far too seriously. Hardaway said he was homophobic. Takei said the one thing that he figured Hardaway feared most, despite it being utterly absurd.
Suggesting that he threatened rape is like taking "you're pulling my leg" as an accusation of physical abuse.
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posted
Lisa, you left out the scare quotes. They were there for a reason. I have explicitly said that I don't think this was an actual threat. You quoted that, in fact, so I can't figure out why you think your simile is relevant to what I said.
What it was was a joke about rape. That's why I have a problem with it.
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posted
There is a ton of stuff out there, routinely said and joked about, that has been taken as rape in legal cases. I presume that's what he's talking about.
Given that almost everyone now considers plying someone with drinks in order to get them to have sex to be rape, that indicts all KINDS of old standard jokes.
I do wonder what it says for the concept of "beer goggles" though.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: "If you tried us, <eyebrow-waggling stare into the camera for two beats> you'd like us to" would have been a very funny way to close the bit.
That would have been funnier.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I find it amusing all the way up until the comment about sex. I have to agree with Dag.
Of course it wasn't serious, and I'm sure Takei wasn't insinuating at all that he'd want to force anybody to have sex, but it was still a joke that referenced un-consensual sex and it fell completely flat.
Before that, I found it an extremely funny, very clever response to Hardaway's bigoted comments. It's a shame, really, because it ruined the whole bit for me.
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posted
If there's one profession that's full of blustering blow-hards, it's musical composition. If anything, we had a hard time choosing not because of scarcity, but because we all kept trying to take over conversation by talking over one another and striking dashing poses.
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posted
Hardaway's homophobia is ugly. I guess it's good that he voiced his disgust. Now at least it can be a subject of conversation.
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posted
You just know Hardaway is on the phone with Takei's agent trying to set up a secret rendezvous. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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At first I disagreed with Dag but I can see how he is right in that Takei could have probably been funny without suggesting that he would rape Hardaway.
Initially I just figured the final comment was an extension of a common misconception (like "they eat babies!") but the gay edition, "Gay people rape homophobes!"
I wouldn't say Takei owes Hardaway and apology as well now, but the segment, though hilarious, could have been in better taste.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: At first I disagreed with Dag but I can see how he is right in that Takei could have probably been funny without suggesting that he would rape Hardaway.
Initially I just figured the final comment was an extension of a common misconception (like "they eat babies!") but the gay edition, "Gay people rape homophobes!"
I wouldn't say Takei owes Hardaway and apology as well now, but the segment, though hilarious, could have been in better taste.
That's my basic opinion. I think the last joke was mostly just targeted at Hardaway to show how ludicrous his homophobia is. I mean, at least in my age group, the majority think that homosexuals are inherently promiscuous and feel like they will be pressured into sexual activities they wouldn't like. I think Takei was just capitalizing on this stereotype trying to show how ridiculous Hardaway's hate was.
But I do agree with Dagonee in that it was in pretty poor taste and it could have ended on a funnier note.
... But still, as a whole, I think it was funny.
Posts: 1831 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Dunno if you guys saw the Scoop Jackson interview that Hardaway did. It's a chance for some kind of public redemption but he never really takes it.
posted
(I just got internet back at my house so I can watch videos again! Yay!)
It seemed to me that Takei wasn't insinuating any forced or nonconsentual sex with Hardaway. He only said that he would have sex with him. I assumed he was addressing a feeling that he assumed Hardaway had, one that, sadly, I know many guys to have: when you meet a gay man, the only thing he wants to do is have sex with you. Maybe it's a case of self projection, as that may be all these guys think about when they're with the gender of their desire. I don't know, but that was what I got out of what Takei said. Just another POV.
posted
I think the real fear of homophobes is that maybe, just maybe, they might be gay themselves. They're terrified that they might be attracted to men, that one day they might actually have sex with another man.
Honestly, I don't think Takei was suggesting that he would rape Hardaway, which is obviously physically impossible. More, it was the suggestion that he would proposition Hardaway for sex, and Hardaway would accept, because he couldn't contain his animal passion for Takei (who I must say, has aged quite well).
Homophobes aren't afraid they'll be raped by gay men, because 1) they don't think any pansy fruity guy could possibly overpower them, and 2) because most guys just aren't afraid of being raped (except for prison). The fear is that they're really gay, or that they might somehow be turned gay against their will.
For example, Hardaway may some day open his door to find George Takei in his kitchen, wearing nothing but an apron, and he'll find himself sweeping Takei up into his arms and carrying him up the stairs to bed while the Righteous Brothers music swells in the background.
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For example, Hardaway may some day open his door to find George Takei in his kitchen, wearing nothing but an apron, and he'll find himself sweeping Takei up into his arms and carrying him up the stairs to bed while the Righteous Brothers music swells in the background.
Yeah, I just thought I should quote that, in tribute to MightyCow's active imagination.
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I didn't really find anything wrong with what Takei was saying, or threatening. You could be hyperliteral about a lot of things and get something offensive out of it if you're REALLY trying.
As the video was going on, I thought Takei was going to say "Well you know what, I don't like basketball players either!" or something like that.
I think it was over the top, but oh well, it was funny, and a great way to respond to something like that I think.
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posted
I had a Drama Professor in College who made witty comment. I won't call it wise, but definitely witty.
"There are only two reasons for a man to hate gay men. Either the gay men are hitting on him too much, or they aren't hitting on him enough."
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I think the real fear of homophobes is that maybe, just maybe, they might be gay themselves. They're terrified that they might be attracted to men, that one day they might actually have sex with another man.
Honestly, I don't think Takei was suggesting that he would rape Hardaway, which is obviously physically impossible. More, it was the suggestion that he would proposition Hardaway for sex, and Hardaway would accept, because he couldn't contain his animal passion for Takei (who I must say, has aged quite well).
...
For example, Hardaway may some day open his door to find George Takei in his kitchen, wearing nothing but an apron, and he'll find himself sweeping Takei up into his arms and carrying him up the stairs to bed while the Righteous Brothers music swells in the background.
I agree with all of this. The third paragraph I would question, but only because I have not seen evidence of this myself.
But that isn't to say that this is the case for all homophobes, or that Takei or anyone else thinks it is, only that it may be for some and this feeling was what Takei was addressing.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: As the word is commonly used, I definitely fall under the umbrella of homophobe.
You know, it's nice that most people these days would be ashamed to admit to being racist or anti-semitic. It's a pity that homophobes haven't yet learned to be ashamed of it.
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posted
In my experience, especially here on Hatrack, the word homophobe is used to describe anybody who holds certain views about homosexuality. It has nothing to do with actual fear.
I hold many of those views, and I am not ashamed of it.
quote:You know, it's nice that most people these days would be ashamed to admit to being racist or anti-semitic. It's a pity that homophobes haven't yet learned to be ashamed of it.
You know, Lisa, perhaps if you'd trouble yourself to learn what definition Porter thinks the word 'homophobe' commonly has, you could decide whether or not he should be ashamed of it.
Instead of, you know, jumping to a hasty, insulting conclusion. But that's your standard method, so I'm not really very hopeful that will change.
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quote:Honestly, I don't think Takei was suggesting that he would rape Hardaway, which is obviously physically impossible. More, it was the suggestion that he would proposition Hardaway for sex, and Hardaway would accept, because he couldn't contain his animal passion for Takei (who I must say, has aged quite well).
This is the charitable interpretation, and the one I'm going to go with. Why not, when it's the funniest explanation?
Lisa, there's a difference between racism and anti-semitism versus "homophobism" (is that a word?) in that the literal meaning of "homophobe" is fear of gay men (or women). The same connotation is not present with racism and anti-semitism where the association is more towards hate than fear. I don't think Porter is suggesting that he hates gays, but that he disapproves of gay acts (as his religion dictates) and possibly (although I could be wrong here) feels some aversion or fear of having to come in contact with such acts himself.
Depending on who is speaking, being a homophobe could encompass hating gays, fearing gays, disapproving of gay acts, aversion to the thought of coming into contact with gays or gay sex, or some combination thereof or all of it. Before Porter clarifies which definition he believes is the one "commonly used", I think it's premature to compare him to racists.
Edit: aaaand, I took way too long time to compose that post.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
This is the only definition I know of. Is this different than the working definition we are using here?
Believing there to be strong negative aspects of homosexuality (not that I do, mind you) is not the same as having an aversion to, or discriminating against, as far as I can tell.
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