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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Conservapedia (Page 7)

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Author Topic: Conservapedia
Tresopax
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My way of putting it may be oversimplifying, but my guess is that you and your husband do keep at least some traditions just for tradition's sake. However, that is a side tangent that would require a great deal of additional discussion to get to the bottom of. So for now I think we can file it away as something we disagree upon, and come back to it if we need to.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Oh, sure. But we take it as a value to sometimes seek change for it's own sake -- so we wouldn't say "since all other things equal, I think we'd rather keep traditions."

Sometimes we would, but at least as often, we'd do the opposite (and value that choice as important and good, as well).

But you are right, it's a side point. Back to work for now.

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Noemon
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Okay, I went through last night and copied all of your and kat's posts into a single document, along with surrounding posts when they seemed relevant to me. I emailed it to my work account, and time permitting I'll dig in and really analyze your interactions with each other this afternoon. If I don't get to it while at work, though, I'm almost certain not to have time to get to it after work tonight.

I will say, though, that after a quick read of the document I'm surprised at just how much less unpleasant both sides of the exchanges between you two were. I think that I'd built both sides of the interaction up to be much more hostile than they actually were.


quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
your post wasn't horribly rude, but I'm reasonably certain that you wouldn't have taken that tone with anyone other than kat
1) You yourself admitted that I wasn't particularly rude. And it wasn't nasty. I don't see how that was me "fighting dirty" as you accused me of.
It was definitely rude, to my eye; it just wasn't horribly so. How are you defining "nasty" here, anyway?


quote:
2) I thought I already addressed this particular post but I can't find it. You are wrong about my tone. I think you may be reading it as more hostile than it is because you expect me to be.
There is always the potential for misreading people in online communications like this, but regardless of what you intended by "Yeah, that's kind of the point", it read as churlish to me.

I don't think that my interpretation of your post was colored by my expectations, because I was surprised by your post. When I'd read the first line of it I actually stopped reading for a moment and thought "man, why's he being a jerk to Kate? I thought that he liked her." It was only when I picked back up and read the next line that I realized that your tone flowed from the fact that you thought that you were addressing kat.

quote:
I'm kind of puzzled by the sake thing. I've gotten from a couple of people in regards to this. I'm not talking about sakeriver.
I assumed that you must be talking about sakeriver because it's the only group (relevant to the forums) that a person might think of (however inaccurately) as a "clique" that I would be a member of that you wouldn't also be a member of.

quote:
This has been going on for longer than sake's been around, I think. It's more people I'd term jatraqueros.
I can't think of a group that I would refer to as "jatraqueros" that you wouldn't be a part of.

quote:
Also, you may be missing my point. I don't particularly want to join sakeriver.
I'm aware of that. Given that membership there is open to anyone, I'd imagine that if you wanted to be a member you would be.

quote:
I'm also not looking to get people to like me or be popular.
I agree--I don't think that you're interested in being liked.

quote:
I just wish that I could be treated fairly, to not have people think that attacking me with baseless accusations and lies is okay, even if I'm not popular.
This is a perfectly reasonable thing to want. Perfectly reasonable thing to expect, too. In instances in which this happens, it's a failing on the part of the individual doing it.

quote:
It's just when people accuse me of bad behavior, I'd like for them to at least try to show me where I behaved poorly and to possibly respect my chance to defend myself.
I'm working on it. Honestly though I've been trying to get this post written since about 10:00 this morning, so the chances that I'll actually have something else for you before I go home today are fairly slim.

quote:
edit: For what it's worth, the last 3 times that Rakeesh or Scott did this, they just insulted me made accusations and then responded to my request for where I did these things with more insults and then left, so I do appreciate that you are doing more than that.
Sure. I haven't actually paid much attention to Rakeesh's or Scott's interactions with you, so I can't speak to what they've said or done. As I said earlier, though, I can understand someone's wanting to be given concrete examples of their "fighting dirty", or however it was that I phrased that earlier; it seems like a fairly reasonable request.

Man, and now I can finally click "Add Reply", a little less than 6 hours after I started this post. I expect that the thread has moved on to either a discussion of homosexuality or a series of puns by now.

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katharina
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I have to say, this is the first time in my life I've been called popular. This is strange for two reasons:

1. I am not in high school, the entertainment industry, or politics.

2. I am not nearly so delusional as to think that thoughtful, intelligent people whom I have never met and with lives of their own would perjure themselves in order to attack a phantom windmill on behalf of my charming...typeface...

In sum, I think Squicky is overestimating me and underestimating others.

If I were a selfish wretch I'd be delighted with the blood on the floor that is staining this living room, but since I am NOT a selfish wretch and not actually a character in a Sweet Valley High book or a romance novel where the hero is named Roman Forsythe the Third, I would prefer that Squicky and I both simply forget everything that has come before and treat each other like the utter strangers we actually are.

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TomDavidson
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Why not, rather than forgetting it, just admit that you've been jerks to each other and resolve to stop?
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katharina
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If this doesn't work, you are welcome to broker the next round of talks, Tom.

I'm hoping this will work.

Come on, Squick, what do you think? You lay down your rock and I lay down my sword and we forget about and ignore each other like civilized people?

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Storm Saxon
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I smell romance in the air!

You know, the couple that starts off squabbling and arguing at the beginning of the movie ends up having, like, five kids and moving to the burbs by the end of the movie.

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katharina
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Aw Stormy, while part of me thinks that was probably the funniest that could be posted at that moment, it's probably not helpful.
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TomDavidson
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"So what was your meet-cute?"
"It was a gay marriage thread, I believe."

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katharina
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This bloodbath is NOT for the amusement of the peanut gallery.
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TomDavidson
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We need some kind of tag to indicate which bloodbaths are for our amusement.
*pouts*

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katharina
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*bump*
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MrSquicky
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Noemon,
I reread the thread too. In the specific instance that you are talking about, I could see how that would come across as rude if you thought I was talking to boots. It could sound like I was saying "No duh!"

However, I didn't realize that I was responding to her. Instead, I thought I was responding to a comment of the sort "I don't see what the big problem is. Most of my textbooks already use the CE/BCE thing." from one of the people who are against the CE/BCE thing. Since one of the big points of the thread is a response to people who are upset and think it is biased to use CE, I was noting that this was kind of the point of our discussion. I don't see that as rude and I didn't have a desire to be rude or hostile with it.

---

And, while you are looking at the thread, I'd recommend looking for negative evidence as well as positive. As I red it over, I was looking for things I could have said were I looking to pick at kat.

For example, this all started when she made an unjustified, disrespectful, dismissive characterization of boots's comments (for which - and maybe you disagree - I believe she owes an as yet unoffered apology for.) I corrected her with what I thought was the extremely obvious meaning. She told me, with no explanation or elaboration, etc. that I was wrong. Then boots came along and pretty strongly confirmed that what I said was right. kat ignored this and tried to avoid the issue completely.

Did I insult her? Did I act in a nasty way or fight dirty? Did I treat her significantly differently than I would other people who showed the same poor behavior? I don't think I did.

kat has a history of doing things like this. She has deleted posts and whole threads when what develops made her look bad. In fact, previously, when I addressed her deleting a thread for this reason, I was attacked with the same "You are only doing this because it is kat." and unsupported accusations of being nasty as here. And yet, I did nothing more than I had done in several other occasions where other people deleted threads that I was engaged in.

---

I think it is possible that perhaps people are viewing my responses through the lens of what they would do in the same situation. I don't think that is accurate. I think I have a very different approach to Hatrack than many others. I don't have a high opinion of kat and expect poor behavior from her based on her history here, but I don't have much in the way of negative emotions towards her. I don't get all that emotionally involved. I think my emotionlessness has even been a topic of converstaion a couple of times.

In that vein, I'm kind of puzzled by the characterization of what went on in this thread a bloodbath. I honestly don't understand that perspective.

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MrSquicky
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kat,
I'm not sure, but are you actually admitting that you've been a jerk?

In any case, ummm...sure? I have no problem not posting things at you maliciously. I think it would do wonders if you stopped doing this to me.

---

I would still appreciate people actually showing me where I've done wrong as opposed to just accusing me of it. If I am shown where my poor behavior is, I'll gladly apologize and change it.

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Dagonee
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Squick, it's the repetition that makes it look like a grudge.

boots clarified. At that point, the discussion about what she meant is over. But then you post this:

quote:
kat,
Could you explain how my interpretation was wrong? I thought it was clearly what she was saying and boots seems to think that it was a pretty good summation? What did you think she was saying and how did you have such confidence as to tell me I was obviously wrong?

and then this:

quote:
Also, should I just not expect an answer from you on the "Your interpretation is wrong." thing?
And then this:

quote:
Also, you're not going to answer or stand behind your statements, are you? In case you are wondering, the adult thing to do is acknowledge you were wrong and appologize.
Desperate misinterpretations like this one don't help either:"

quote:
kat,
So you think that dkw and boots don't love Jesus?

If there's only one thing that makes you sound hostile, it's the way you take your interpretation of what someone else said, turn it into a snarky question, and then repeatedly demand that people answer the question.

And this is AFTER it's obvious to you that the person had a different interpretation of what was said than you.

It's actually damn annoying. Moreso when you insist on telling people that they said something they didn't say, which wasn't really done here. But still annoying whether that happens or not.

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katharina
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Squick, if you are looking for unanimous condemnsation of me and a vindication of you, it is never, ever going to happen. It isn't. That only happens in poorly-written movies. I'm sorry.

I don't need an apology from you. You can if you would prefer, but I don't need it.

I am going to focus on two sentences:
quote:
I'm not sure, but are you actually admitting that you've been a jerk?
Sure. I'm sure I have been. I imagine we disagree on the details, but I can't pretend that I have been blameless at all times. I apologize, and I wish I had behaved differently at those times.
quote:
In any case, ummm...sure?
Great!!!

To be clear, you are agreeing to these sentences, right?
quote:
I would prefer that Squicky and I both simply forget everything that has come before and treat each other like the utter strangers we actually are.
and
quote:
You lay down your rock and I lay down my sword and we forget about and ignore each other like civilized people?
Unless you say differently, I will assume that you are. This is great.

It's over. Past is wiped. New slate for everyone. This is great.

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MrSquicky
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Noemon,
Since you are going through this and are respected by both parties, could I ask you to weigh in on what Dag said? You certainly don't have to, but I'm pretty darn sure nothing I said will effect his opinion and I believe he does me a disservice with the above.

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katharina
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But it's over, right? I thought we had an offer of peace out there and accepted. There's no need to continue fighting the skirmishes.
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MrSquicky
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kat,
I'm agreeing to what I said. That I'll refrain from posting malicious things at you and you do the same for me. I don't think it is really possible or productive to forget the past, but forgiveness I basically give free.

---

You still owe boots an apology.

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katharina
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I think it's too big and deep of a divide for a limited cease fire. I'm looking for all out peace.

Forgive and forget. Completely. I'm sorry for when I was a jerk to you, and I'd like for this to all be over.

WHat do you think?

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Dagonee
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quote:
You still owe boots an apology.
You can't help yourself, can you?
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katharina
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Dagsy, it's okay. [Smile]
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MrSquicky
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Dag,
Do you disagree with my perspective or is my fault just expressing it? Do you think that kat did not wrong boots?

I think, when people do things wrong they should be held to it, even (or actually especially) if you like them.

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katharina
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I'll talk to boots about it and work it out with her. I'm going to repeat what I said above about this.

I think it's too big and deep of a divide for a limited cease fire. I'm looking for all out peace.

Forgive and forget. Completely. I'm sorry for when I was a jerk to you, and I'd like for this to all be over.

What do you think?

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Dagonee
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
Dag,
Do you disagee with my perspective or is my fault jsut expressing it?

I think, when people do things wrong they should be held to it, even (or actually especially) if you like them.

You said it already. Pages ago. Why do you keep picking at it and picking at it and picking at it?
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MrSquicky
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Because it has not been rectified? I wasn't aware that there was a statute of limitations on wronging people.
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katharina
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Dag, please? I'm hoping all the skirmishes to be over. [Frown]

----

I'll talk to boots about it and work it out with her. I'm going to repeat what I said above about this.

I think it's too big and deep of a divide for a limited cease fire. I'm looking for all out peace.

Forgive and forget. Completely. I'm sorry for when I was a jerk to you, and I'd like for this to all be over.

What do you think? Do you want to think about it? We could resume this conversation a little bit later if you'd like to think about it.

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MrSquicky
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kat,
As I've told you on mulitple occasions, I don't have a problem with you as a person. I have a problem with your frequent poor behavior. If you cease acting in objectionable ways, I won't be objecting. This isn't a matter of forgetting. It's about how you are going to act in the future.

Do you get what you did wrong here?

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Dagonee
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quote:
Because it has not been rectified? I wasn't aware that there was a statute of limitations on wronging people.
Why is it so important to YOU that it be rectified? For that matter, how do you know it hasn't been?

You stated your opinion about an interaction here. That's fine - everyone does it at some point.

But you've also taken upon yourself the responsibility to get Kat to apologize for something you think she did to someone else. You're not responding to arguments about whether what she did was wrong or not none of those have been made in this exchange. You're not forwarding the conversation about whether an apology is deserved or not. You're simply picking at a scab that might or might not exist on kmboot's knee.

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katharina
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Squicky, I'm looking for peace and a new start. If something happens in the future you want to object to, that's fine, but I want both of us to react with no weight of history. You read my posts as the posts of the stranger I am to you. I'll read and react to your posts like the stranger you actually are.

Clean slate. No mutual gagging for the future, but the past is gone. Clean start. What do you think?

If you're right and I do what you think I do, you'll have lots and lots of chances to call me out again and see how I react. But - must be done WITHOUT your conceptions of me. I will do the same for you.

I've apologized and I meant it. I don't even need your apology for this to happen. What do you think?

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MrSquicky
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Dag,
How are you acting differently from what you are saying I am? Why are you taking this upon yourself? If that is between kat and boots, why isn't this between kat and I?

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katharina
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Squicky, I'm looking for peace and a new start. If something happens in the future you want to object to, that's fine, but I want both of us to react with no weight of history. You read my posts as the posts of the stranger I am to you. I'll read and react to your posts like the stranger you actually are.

Clean slate. No mutual gagging for the future, but the past is gone. Clean start. What do you think?

If you're right and I do what you think I do, you'll have lots and lots of chances to call me out again and see how I react. But - must be done WITHOUT your conceptions of me. I will do the same for you.

I've apologized and I meant it. I don't even need your apology for this to happen. What do you think?

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kmbboots
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Frankly, I had forgotten about the misinterpretation. Please, MrSquicky, please don't let a slight* to me stop you from starting fresh with kat.

*If it was, I don't rememember.

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Dagonee
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Because we're disagreeing about something and exchanging new ideas about it.

If, tomorrow, I post something saying "Squick, you shouldn't have told Kat that she needed to apologize yesterday" in a post replying to you about something different (if still related), then I would be doing what I called you out on. But I'm not.

In fact, I've been answering your questions in every post except the first one of this exchange.

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MrSquicky
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*sigh* It's not about a particular issue and it's not a personal thing. It's about repeated poor behavior. kat frequently behaves poorly towards myself and others, but very few people seem to call her on it.

As I've said in the past, there are certain roles I play on this board that I don't particularly relish, but that I do because I think they are important and if I don't, no one else will. I wish that kat's clique would step in to correct her when she does wrong. If they did, I wouldn't feel a need to. But they don't.

edit: We had the same issue with Leto with many of the same people.

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MrSquicky
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Dag,
And I haven't been engaged on the issue of the apology. If I had been, I would explain why I'm saying what I am.

You and I are having a dialog on it. kat and I are not.

---

edit: In the same way, I kept bringing up her false accusation at me because she was trying to get away with not addressing it. I've seen you do the exact same thing.

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katharina
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Squicky,

Please accept my apology for my poor behavior in the past. I would like to start new and have a fresh peace. Please forgive me.

If you're right and I do what you think I do, you'll have lots and lots of chances to call me out again and see how I react. But - must be done WITHOUT your conceptions of me. I will do the same for you.

Forgive and forget. Clean start. What do you think?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
As I've said in the past, there are certain roles I play on this board that I don't particularly relish, but that I do because I think they are important and if I don't, no one else will.
Why not ask the mod? Don't put yourself out on our account.
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MrSquicky
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kat,
As I said, you basically get forgiveness for free. I don't believe that really forgetting is actually possible, but I'll try to keep an open mind.

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MrSquicky
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Ask the mod to do what, Tom?
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katharina
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Can I ask you a question? What does forgiveness mean to you?
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MrSquicky
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I don't bear you ill will for things you have done. I hold no resentment.

We had a whole thread about this at one point.

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katharina
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How do you see things changing in the future as a result of this reapproachment?
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MrSquicky
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I don't. I don't expect you to change your behavior.
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katharina
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Do you expect to change any of your behavior?

I apologized to you. Is that new?

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MrSquicky
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No. But, as I've said, if people could show me what I've done wrong, I'd gladly change.

---

Yes, you apologizing is new. I'll have to see how you act before I'm really going to be able to accept that you are going to change though.

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katharina
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You mean people besides me and Noemon and Dag?
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katharina
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Are you retracting and your agreement to a clean slate?
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MrSquicky
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You may be using a different definition of show me what I've done wrong than I am. Noemon has said that he will do it though, so I'm waiting.
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katharina
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Are you retracting your forgiveness and your agreement to a clean slate?
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