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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Richard Dutcher leaves the Mormon faith? Not really sure but a beautiful farewell. (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Richard Dutcher leaves the Mormon faith? Not really sure but a beautiful farewell.
Cashew
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Orfiginally posted by Amanecer:
"I'm not sure why you are addressing me. I haven't really entered this part of the converation except to ask MattB his views."

Yeah, sorry Amanecer, I was posting in a rush and misread whose post I was addressing. Meant to be addressed to MattB.

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Cashew
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originally posted by dkw -

"quote:
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Originally posted by Cashew:
Amanecer, what you say would apply if the church was equivocal about what it claims. But it isn't. It either is or isn't the kingdom of God on earth, the only body authorised to act in God's name. There's no room for grey in that.
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But if it's not, does that make it worthless?"

By the church's own definition of itself, yes.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by MattB:
Hi, BB! [Smile]

quote:
Matt: Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet is problematic because as the head of this dispensation you would think God would call somebody He knew would not fall down the road.
This is actually the position that the RLDS hold; according to them, Joseph screwed up with polygamy. (A few irreverently speculate that God removed him). Anyway, my point was that arguing that Joseph was either a conman (Cashew's word was 'fraud') or the prophet that the SLC church argues is not logically consistent; there's a multitude of other options.

As to your last sentence, I don't believe that it's possible to believe that 1)God is embodied, 2)God has perfect knowledge of the future, and 3)we have free will all at the same time. But that's another topic. [Smile]

quote:
Why do you think that Lewis sets up a false dichotomy about Christ? Unless we claim the gospel writers did not accurately record Christs words and beliefs, how is there a way to reconcile Christ's belief in his own divinity without calling him either the son of God, crazy, or a liar?
You get at it with your first point. Lewis dismisses the possibility that the writers of the gospels presented the Christ they believed in rather than the historical Jesus. I'm not saying that this is what everyone has to believe, but it's a perfectly acceptable option, and makes it possible for people to believe that Christ was merely a great moral teacher and Paul made up all the Messiah stuff.

Further, as with Joseph Smith, it's possible Jesus of Nazareth had a series of powerful religious experiences and interpreted them subjectively.

A hearty salutation to you too! [Big Grin]

Its a rare thing, but your answers completely satisfied everything I was wondering about. Seriously I can't think of a thing.

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katharina
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People leave for all sorts of reasons. Some people do leave because they started putting other things in life as more important or started doing things that were incompatible with the gospel and stopped going because they didn't like being reminded of it. Those are not, however, the only reasons possible.

I think the reasons people leave are often complicated, kind of like the reasons people stay. I have about 10 different reasons as to why I went on a mission, and every one of them is true. Some are more noble than others. People and their motivations are complicated.

-----

Grouping everything together and taking it as a lump sum can be useful, but it isn't the only way.

Nephi said to go line upon line, precept on precept. If the line upon line process exists (and it does), then it must needs be that not everyone has all the lines and precepts at once. In fact, I think recognizing that there are more precepts that need to be confirmed individually is a good way to grow spiritually, because it leaves room to come to a conclusion for each precept. That way if a testimony of one principle becomes shaky for whatever reason, it doesn't bring one's entire testimony down with it like a house of cards.

The all or nothing scenario can be useful and sometimes appropriate, but not only is it not the only way to be Mormon, I think staying in that mindset can close us off to gaining wisdom and a stronger testimony by seeking for answers on individual principles.

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MattB
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quote:
Nephi said to go line upon line, precept on precept.
That's from the extended-Nephi-quotes-from-Isaiah chapters, so perhaps Isaiah said it first. Amyway, good points. [Smile]

Thanks, BB - glad I could be of service.

[ April 24, 2007, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: MattB ]

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Cashew
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i agree with MattB when he says
"Actually, there's a huge amount of room. There are Mormons who believe every word Gordon B. Hinckley speaks is God's will; there are those who believe he has the right to receive such revelation but does only rarely (or never, so far). There are Mormons who believe the Book of Mormon is inspired fiction, and those who believe the American...."

There is room for the kind of differences he mentions, paradoxical in a church that places so much emphasis on doctrinal purity. The reason why there is that kind of room is the wonderful phrase "not essential to your salvation".
None of those private interpretations of doctrine impact on the things necessary for our salvation.
But the status of the church as the true church, the Book of Mormon as true, inspired scripture, Joseph Smith as a (not fallen) prophet, Jesus Christ as the Saviour and Redeemer, the authority of God to act in His name reposing only in the LDS church is non-negotiable. The church is unequivocal about those doctrines.
A testimony and commitment to those things is the very essence of being a Latter-day Saint.

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